Professionalization of mods?

[Sprafa]

I'm concerned that several factors in the industry are making good quality mods increasingly rarer to find, due to the fact that it's getting awfully time & resouce consuming to make a decent production.


Things like more detailed extremely detailed models, extreme detail skins, 100's of thousands of lines of code, beautifull concept art and so on....
Who remembers the old one man mods from the old days? Today we have up to 20 ppl working on one mod alone.


And the tool makers aren't helping either! There is pratically no inovation, only revamps of old products. Zbrush seems to be the only one that tried to "stand out".

What do you guys think?

 

[The Dark Elf]

I'm concerned that several factors in the industry are making good quality mods increasingly rarer to find, due to the fact that it's getting awfully time & resouce consuming to make a decent production.


Things like more detailed extremely detailed models, extreme detail skins, 100's of thousands of lines of code, beautifull concept art and so on....
Who remembers the old one man mods from the old days? Today we have up to 20 ppl working on one mod alone.


And the tool makers aren't helping either! There is pratically no inovation, only revamps of old products. Zbrush seems to be the only one that tried to "stand out".

What do you guys think?

The bonus is those mods that do succeed are likely to be very impressive efforts, the level of quality will get higher and higher, because the effort and time required will push out those who don't really have their heart in it, and would have ended up making pretty naff stuff anyway.

I think also that the belief you need loads of people on a mod is misleading and born from the idea that to get anywhere you need lots and lots of people working on it. Also its the whole "we want to be the first" situation. Unfortunately the first is often the first forgotton. BUT, people will learn and I believe its just a phase, this large team thing.

Personally I have high hopes of some one or two man mods than ones with large teams, infact I believe those with smaller teams stand a far better chance.

As for ZBrush. Alas since Valve were shown running it, everyone making a mod thinks its the be all and end all of designing models. Those who've not used it before are in for a surprise. Not to mention as cool as it is, its not the best tool to use for many situations, just brilliant for some.

 

[Sprafa]

I'm learning to model with Zbrush. That's exactly why I mentioned it, I also think it's awsome.

 

[babywax]

Well, I'm making a one man mod, but I'm of course not announcing it until about a month or so until release. You don't want to build up pre-hype, making mods is for fun, being under the pressure of a bunch of fans isn't going to help until it's almost finished.

I don't think the over-all number of smaller mods is going down, it's just much easier to see the larger teams, I just don't really get how you can make a mod with 20 people. Some of these mods have more than 1 coder! I sure hope the leader knows how to code atleast a little, it's going to be a nightmare getting even 2 coders to work together, with all the changes that go on.

Smaller teams have the advantage of generally being much more dedicated to the idea than the larger teams, if you get my drift. Larger mods have the benifit of being able to crank out tons of content much faster, however, this is not always an advantage, keeping quality high and a consistant theme is important and hard to do with a larger mod.

Overall, I wouldn't worry, I don't think the smaller mods will ever disappear. One think I think we will soon start seeing mods doing is showing their models, and then saying that anyone can make a model and if it's up to par they will use it, sort of like freelancing. It has been done by some teams, but not very much.

Anyway, I'll stop rambling on about stuff you guys have probably already thought of

 

[Angry Lawyer]

*raises his hand*
I'm planning on doing the one-man-modteam thing, at least up to a certain point that makes the game playable. Then, I'll possibly be grouping together a few other folks for tasks such as mapping (a feature I'm very, very average at) and modelling (unlikely to need much in this department, as the mod's actual storyline is based on Half-Life 2).

Still, I agree about the number of generic, and possibly naff mods is on the rise. Everyone who's anyone wants to lead a mod-team, and wants three coders to devote themselves to creating generic WW2 mod #3078, or almost-apocalypse-China-are-going-to-invade-the-USA geric mod #46464, or Super-realism mod #77766 (apparently more real than counterstrike). It's also getting concerning that a large number of the mod-team leaders that want to do a Half-Life 2 mod have no actual implementation skills, apart from 'ideas man' or 'mod leader'.
*exhales a stressed breath*
Anyways, considering I'm at least average in all parts of mod-development, I at least know my mod will be playable. Expect an announcement after I find out the Half-Life 2 storyline, and manage to make my mod fit.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Sprafa]

(....) mod's actual storyline is based on Half-Life 2.


Anyways, considering I'm at least average in all parts of mod-development, I at least know my mod will be playable. Expect an announcement after I find out the Half-Life 2 storyline, and manage to make my mod fit.

-Angry Lawyer

Would love to work on something like that, I liked the fan spinoff mods from HL.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

But the thing is, would you enjoy a pure RTS based on the Half-Life universe? I know I would

-Angry Lawyer

 

[neozero]

I like the fact that Mods are becoming more and more professional, but it also seems like its harder to get in. Most mods today ask for 2-3 years experiance, but if you don't have that oyu're still sunk.

 

[Shinobi]

well back in the days of doom there were a LOT more standalone custom maps

and back then they also had PC's (partial conversions) I havent heard of one announced for HL2

also it's true about zbrush, it's a very specialized tool,, totally impractical for things like modelling map props,,

seems like it's really only good for taking a game mesh of something like a game character model, then adding a ton of detail and creating a normal map from the high poly mesh..

it's fun to play with but is not a modelling tool replacement


edit: angry lawyers game seem like a PC, cool

 

[qckbeam]

All a mod team really needs is a couple of artists, and a coder. The team must work really well together. Each of them must be skilled in their field, but more importantly, they must be ready to commit to the mod 100%, and passionate to an extreme level about the task at hand.

Working on a mod isn't quite like working on a real game. It has some serious benefits. Mod teams (especially small ones that don't talk big before the work begins) have the luxury of remaining generally unknown throughout development. They don't have budgets, they don't have deadlines really (a target date of course, but nothing like a real game), they don't have to worry about PR, and best of all, even if a mod team puts out a poor product, they have lost nothing and gained a ton of experience. Some may think that having a team comprised of volunteers is detrimental to work. It is quite a commitment after all. However, a truly serious team of people taking on such a huge task out of pure passion, and love for the creation is going to soar beyond a team of uninspired, but payed, professionals.

It is certainly true that as time continues, mod creation will continue to grow increasingly more difficult. A mod team must match the level of todays developers to be noticed, and beat that level to really stand out from the crowd. Anything less than pro quality (which has leaped tremendously in five years) will be shunned. The bar has been raised in a huge way. However, this only serves to weed out the good from the bad more quickly than before. The process remains the same, it's just that today, the task seems a little more daunting than it used to. It's a good thing.

 

[MadMechwarrior]

Running a team of 2-3 coders isnt impossible. If you have a good source control setup you can all work on the same code and get it done faster, ofcourse commenting becomes a whole lot more important. Anyways, I agree that small teams have an advantage. teams larger than 15 tend to be very badly organised and unmotivated. 4 artists is probably a max and 2-3 mappers and 2-3 coders (although this requires a bit more setup, most teams just need 1 skilled and dedicated coder, usualy the leader). Adding anybody else is just a waste of time.

 

[neozero]

then again, as time continues, the editing process will become easier to learn and utilize. For example, the uinreal 3 engine. If you saw the demo you'd know that the shaders required no coding to create. I imagine that the same sort of thing woudl occur in other types of editing tools.

Who knows? In the future, programmers will only work on the actual engines, models/maps will be created using a holographic display, and the cheapest computers will come with the highest quality sound recording devices.

Okay, this will not come anytime soon. The point is that one of the main driving forces behind the game industry's expansion is the ever increasing intuitiveness of the development tools. This was mentioned in the most recent edition of Popular Sceince I believe.

 

[Venmoch]

I dunno, I always thought the one man mod teams were great because you could get your own idea out the door.

I suppose the option to make a "One Man Mod" (They Hunger is a good example) and have it become a success but you've got to pour the work in and make something that'll have some sort of impact on the player.

 

[PinFX]

I think the term 'mod' has evolved a bit. I remember before a mod was the grappling hook in quake, or an extra weapon in half-life. Now mods are basically teams using powerful game engines who can't afford to license them.

 

[FragBait0]

I gotta say i agree with this last post. Mods have changed from small things like an improved model or a grappling hook to huge things like DoD or NS.

one/two man mods dead? Nah.
I myself am working on a two man mod with Kyo. (I know him as alpheus...this is gonna take some getting used to )

Have we got a fantastic mod that the whole world will love? No.
Have we got huge graphical improvments over Half-Life? Nope.
Have we got a large single-player experience that will take 30 hours to complete? Nope.
Have we got anything at all? Yes.

We (will...) have a relatively short single player game that will take maybe on hour or so to finish with higher poly counts and better lighting thanks to the limits of today. Half-Life was built with 400 polys. We are going for 800 - 1200. As long as it gets ~75fps on my machine. (1.6GHz AMD)

How long has it taken?
Most of last year and this year to date. We are going to be working till this christmas at least.

The definition of mod in general is changing..and quality of the mods is going through the roof (or should i say skybox? )

I say this is a *GOOD THING* and will continue to be as long as the mod teams have fresh ideas and committed people working at it.
The only problem could be lack of mods that appear quickly, work quickly and keep people interested in a game till big guns appear. The little mods, and perhaps those with small teams/goals will float new games like Half-Life2 until the likes of like DoD2 and CS2 (God more mapping n00bs, save me!) will take a while (or could) to come out.

P.S. Im not saying n00bs are bad im saying they piss me off so ill be staying right away from them..much as i can anyways.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Oh God yeah, the mapping n00bz for Counterstrike, I know I'm dreading them! Pop into a 'custom map server' and end up in a box shaped room with a couple of pillars, with a MOTD saying 'YoUr Mizzi0n iz tO sHootzOr the B@dZors OMGWTFLOLZ!!!!!11!1oneone' before being equipped with a dozen random weapons. Guhh, it makes me shudder just thinking how some people are going to butcher the game...
In my dictionary, there are noobs, and n00bz. Noobs want to do their best at mapping, and try to make a decent level. n00bz think that sitting in a square room with limitless weapons is a fun map.

Agreed, the mod scene looks fantastic, probably because people have so long for planning their mods. However, the number of similar mods is on the rise - nobody (except me) seems to be willing to try new ideas, instead of Counterstrike clone #8923942, or WW2/WW3 #453246554.
Only time will tell if those mods actually take off though.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[The Dark Elf]

nobody (except me) seems to be willing to try new ideas,

You really need to read other posts before saying that. This site is forever being accused of cruelty to mod teams just because we don't like yet another WWII or CS clone or neowhatever clone (and now swat clones are cropping up)

Course to that I say, if they don't want to be pulled out from the crowd and made an example of, think up something original instead.

 

[Onions]

"I'm concerned that several factors in the industry are making good quality mods increasingly rarer to find, due to the fact that it's getting awfully time & resouce consuming to make a decent production."

I agree to an extent. Firstly I think many aparently "professional" mod teams are going to fall flat on their faces because they overestimate themselves. It's a dangerous mistake to make as it leads to a false sense of security and your potential community getting their hopes up only to be let down later. I believe you have to love what you do to really innovate and prosper. I agree that having a small team is better, but only if you can find members that are dedicated and prepared to work, which isn't as easy as it sounds. In my case, leading and coding (when i get the damned sdk!) a space combat mod, i've found that my small friendly modelling team of 3 people have done a much greater job than in other projects i've led where it was a case of "lets get loads of modellers and we'll have loads of models". Of course models don't make a mod, thats just an example, and it can be applied to the other fields. Coding for example. It makes me cry when i see mods with like 3 coders. This would of course be perfectly acceptable in a larger project with an organised team leader, but the majority of aforementioned mods could be easily done by one and unfortunately many leaders think they can just stick code together with blu-tack and expect it to work. The benefits of a small team don't end there. For example with a small team you can, as project leader, spend more time speaking to and getting to know your members, resulting in everyone having a better idea of your vision. You may take all that with a pinch of salt as i do not claim to be professional in any means, i simply offer my opinion after leading a couple of hl mods.

"Who remembers the old one man mods from the old days? Today we have up to 20 ppl working on one mod alone." 20 people is a bit much for most projects I'd say. Unfortunately, due to the advancements in technology, one-man mods are a lot trickier to pull off and generally rate worse than bigger projects. That said, with the right level of commitment, it can be done well. Take for example a puzzle adventure game, i can't remember the name, i saw in pcgamer a couple of issues ago. This guy had done everything himself, and got his game published. Ok it got around 50 percent, but it shows there is still room for the lone bedroom coder.

qck hit it right on the nose

"All a mod team really needs is a couple of artists, and a coder. The team must work really well together. Each of them must be skilled in their field, but more importantly, they must be ready to commit to the mod 100%, and passionate to an extreme level about the task at hand."

 

[Sprafa]

It's nice to see such interesting opinions around here.