Quake Wars Enemy Territory coming to xbox360, PS3

[Aenama]

don't to Warbie is mind is deluted by consoles.

 

[knut]

Cole - I know for a fact I won't be using auto-aim. I never do. The only game I think I ever used auto-aim on was probably a GTA game, and come on, let's admit it, GTA games weren't great for combat. It just got damn frustrating when you were surrounded by 10 Mexicans with Uzi's.

It's not so much harder difficulty settings, because that cannot be implicated into online games. Well, you can have higher servers of 'better' players, but not alot usually changes, save your K/D ratio.

And I know it's not a PC vs Console arguement, I worded that wrong. A KBM and Pad arguement, then.

AAnd for your last point... well, the others here pretty much nailed it on the head, plus other stuff I've already said over the last page or so.

 

[CptStern]

I cant see how a controller can be more "realistic" than a kb/mouse ..when you aim you bob left and right till you centre it; but only in tiny increments controlled by your thumb, not so with kb/mouse which can be measured in inches and is controled by your hand/forearm ..if we simply must attach words like realistic to input devices that in no way resemble the object that they're mimicing then lets at least acknowledge that one control scheme is more realitic under a set of predefined circumstances. When it comes to aiming, a mouse is more "realistic" than a thumbstick

had the issue been firing your weapon then I would concede that pulling the trigger on a controller is more realistic than clicking a button

 

[knut]

For me, that slight 'bob' acts as the weight and recoil to the weapon when I'm firing. A mouse gives me a robotic, superhuman, iron grip upon a weapon in a game, and as I have said over and over, in past experiences firing a weapon using aiming through a mouse has felt way too easy and ridiculously accurate, even with weapons that are classed as very unaccurate.

It's just my own prefrence. Alot of people aren't going to have the same experience, it really isn't a big deal.

 

[CptStern]

that same weight and recoil effect is what rips me out of immersiveness due to how predetermined it is ..it's always the same whereas I find it to be random with a mouse

 

[Warbie]

When it comes to aiming, a mouse is more "realistic" than a thumbstick

That may be the case, but the effect isn't as convincing - for me anyways. I'm not just talking about aiming a weapon either - general moving and looking around works better with a pad. With a mouse I can't shake the feeling of being a camera that floats around with gun attached underneath it. This is fine for playing the pc fps I like - strafe jumping around, spinning 180 - but when it comes to anything of a slower pace, using a pad just feels that much more real.

 

[CptStern]

pads for the most part seem very unrealistic when moving ..it's most noticeable when turning around ..as most games dont allow you do a complete 180 like you could in real life ..instead you must either circle strafe or turn your view around till you've turned around ..which is always fatal in a game as it takes too long ..with a mouse I can easily turn around much like I would in real life

again I find that controllers offer no fine movements ..pcs allows for very precise movements ..so much so that I rarely fall off ledges ..in console games if there's a ledge I'll fall of it because I've over/under estimated my movements

the very best way of testing this is to have someone who's never played either to try it out ..fortunately I have such an example: my gaming n00b friend ..every freaking time we start up a game on xbox he has to look through the manual to see what the controls are ..even if we've played it dozens of times ..with a pc mouse, he has a slight learning curve but once he gets going it's the same for virtually every game out there ...not so in console games ...even I who have played a long list of games have to adjust with every single console game I play

 

[Warbie]

again I find that controllers offer no fine movements ..pcs allows for very precise movements ..so much so that I rarely fall off ledges ..in console games if there's a ledge I'll fall of it because I've over/under estimated my movements

When it comes to moving around, analogue sticks offer far more control than a keyboard - try playing Mario 64 without a pad, the control needed just isn't there. Other than giving the player more precise control, it just feels a whole load better imo - slight movements of the thumb mapped perfectly to your character - tip toeing, walking, jogging, sprinting. Turning 180 is no problem either - modern console games virtually all have acceleration these days (I can't think of one that doesn't), and turning around is just as quick as you could in real life (GoW is a good example).

When looking around with a mouse I tend to be flicking around rather quickly. I can center my vision on what I want to look at in a second and do so. To jerk your head around in real life this way would result in some serious neck damage (you'd look like those freaky guys in Jacobs Ladder)

It's all a question of practise - some people just fail at the tiny movements needed to be good with a pad. One of my mates simply can't get used to analogue movement - it's all jerks and extremes, looking at the ceiling, falling off and shooting the floor. He blames the pad

 

[CptStern]

When it comes to moving around, analogue sticks offer far more control than a keyboard - try playing Mario 64 without a pad, the control needed just isn't there.

is that even possible? did they ever make any other control scheme besides a gamepad? ..again we're talking about fps ..at least I am

Other than giving the player more precise control, it just feels a whole load better imo - slight movements of the thumb mapped perfectly to your character - tip toeing, walking, jogging, sprinting. Turning 180 is no problem either - modern console games virtually all have acceleration these days (I can't think of one that doesn't), and turning around is just as quick as you could in real life (GoW is a good example).

havent played GoW but not one xbox game that I can think of allows you to turn around without circle strafing/slowly turning your gun around

When looking around with a mouse I tend to be flicking around rather quickly. I can center my vision on what I want to look at in a second and do so. To jerk your head around in real life this way would result in some serious neck damage (you'd look like those freaky guys in Jacobs Ladder)

you'd move your eyes not your whole head/body ..I find with a mouse I point with my mouse at what I'm looking at ..because of the consoles inprecise controls I find myself moving my eyes to look at something on screen because it's just faster

It's all a question of practise - some people just fail at the tiny movements needed to be good with a pad. One of my mates simply can't get used to analogue movement - it's all jerks and extremes, looking at the ceiling, falling off and shooting the floor. He blames the pad

I've been playing with a controller for years and still can't seem to overcome that bob movement inherent in every console fps

I gues the strongest bit of evidence we have to date is that a game like shadowrun, which is the first cross platform game, had to implement auto-aim in order to keep things balanced ..they even had to change up movement with a mouse/kb to make it more even across the board despite having auto-aim: that has to say something about each control scheme

 

[knut]

pads for the most part seem very unrealistic when moving ..it's most noticeable when turning around ..as most games dont allow you do a complete 180 like you could in real life ..instead you must either circle strafe or turn your view around till you've turned around ..which is always fatal in a game as it takes too long ..with a mouse I can easily turn around much like I would in real life

I dunno, as the game is from your eyesight (or of your characters/soldiers) then to me it's just a turn. With a thumbstick, you just tilt it and you turn, and your vision goes with it. Stand up now and try it - turn around, any speed. The only 'complication' is the way your body looks, but in games it's rare you look down and see legs thesedays. I can turn a full 360 easily, no complications, just like using a controller/analog stick.

 

[CptStern]

not the same as a mouse/kyboard ...when you turn with the mouse there is nothing that assists your movement except your own body motion ..with a controller if I just press the thumbstick to the right all the way, it will turn me in that direction in a uniform, predicatable way ..there is no chance/skill involved because the movement can be replicated every single time ..not so with a mouse where distance, inertia play a big part in movement

also I can jump straight up and turn before I hit the ground ..try that with a controller


dont get me wrong, a controller has it's strengths but in fps it is clearly lacking in comparison to a mouse ..I guess the biggest proof of this is the fact that fps on consoles are fast becoming over the shoulder 3rd person shooters

 

[Warbie]

again we're talking about fps ..at least I am

You have more control with analogue fullstop, regardless of whether the view is 3rd or first person.

havent played GoW but not one xbox game that I can think of allows you to turn around without circle strafing/slowly turning your gun around

I guess that depends on the game. Things do tend to be a whole lot better these days, though. I had no problem with the turning speeds of older games such as Perfect Dark and Halo, but do prefer the way turning in more modern games.

you'd move your eyes not your whole head/body ..I find with a mouse I point with my mouse at what I'm looking at ..because of the consoles inprecise controls I find myself moving my eyes to look at something on screen because it's just faster

That could be one of the reasons I find it more convincing with a pad. I use the pad to move the characters head around and use my eyes to focus on things on the screen - that's how I do it in real life. With a mouse I tend to do the same as you described - centering on anything of interest, kind of like Data in TNG.

I've been playing with a controller for years and still can't seem to overcome that bob movement inherent in every console fps

Bad workmen ....

I gues the strongest bit of evidence we have to date is that a game like shadowrun, which is the first cross platform game, had to implement auto-aim in order to keep things balanced ..they even had to change up movement with a mouse/kb to make it more even across the board despite having auto-aim: that has to say something about each control scheme

That simply says that using a mouse and keyboard is quicker and easier. Quicker and easier doesn't equal better - which is why Halo with a pad craps on Halo on the pc and why many of my favourite console fps just wouldn't work with any other control method.

 

[knut]

Meh, there's no line deviding them for me - I can do either perfectly be it with controller or mouse/keyboard, the former is just the one I prefer to use.

But to be fair, jumping straight up in a game like Battlefield, spinning 360 and landing... whilst wearing all the gear a soldier wears and the weapon? Well, it's only right that I can't do that.

 

[CptStern]

You have more control with analogue fullstop, regardless of whether the view is 3rd or first person.

are you referring to the fact that an analog stick has more directions to push/pull whereas a keyboard has only 4 keys (occasionaly 6 for strafing)? ..but you're not factoring the mouse ..with the keyboard mouse there are a lot more possibilities

I guess that depends on the game. Things do tend to be a whole lot better these days, though. I had no problem with the turning speeds of older games such as Perfect Dark and Halo, but do prefer the way turning in more modern games.

you mean GoW because I've played many modern console games that dont have this feature

That could be one of the reasons I find it more convincing with a pad. I use the pad to move the characters head around and use my eyes to focus on things on the screen - that's how I do it in real life. With a mouse I tend to do the same as you described - centering on anything of interest, kind of like Data in TNG.

but that's only because it's likely that whatever I'm looking at will be shot at ..in rpgs such as say gothic 3 I tend to move my mouse around but look with my eyes instead of with the pointer

That simply says that using a mouse and keyboard is quicker and easier. Quicker and easier doesn't equal better - which is why Halo with a pad craps on Halo on the pc and why many of my favourite console fps just wouldn't work with any other control method.

but in the case of fps quicker and easier = better because your toon's life literally depends on it

again I dont think mouse/kb is superior in every circumstance ..however I've yet to see a console game best a pc in terms of control

 

[CptStern]

Meh, there's no line deviding them for me - I can do either perfectly be it with controller or mouse/keyboard, the former is just the one I prefer to use.

But to be fair, jumping straight up in a game like Battlefield, spinning 360 and landing... whilst wearing all the gear a soldier wears and the weapon? Well, it's only right that I can't do that.

but if we're going to go down that route then you should never fly a plane or drive a tank or use a sniper rifle ..as a soldier you shouldnt be able to do all that ..soldiers seldom drive tanks AND fly planes AND snipe the evil-doers

btw I did said 180 ..why would you ever jump in a 360 degree circle?


I guess the only way of proving this is to have pc games play against 360 gamers ..however developers are working hard to articificially balance it so that we're more even ..so we may never find out

 

[knut]

but if we're going to go down that route then you should never fly a plane or drive a tank or use a sniper rifle ..as a soldier you shouldnt be able to do all that ..soldiers seldom drive tanks AND fly planes AND snipe the evil-doers

btw I did said 180 ..why would you ever jump in a 360 degree circle?


I guess the only way of proving this is to have pc games play against 360 gamers ..however developers are working hard to articificially balance it so that we're more even ..so we may never find out

Actually you said 'turn' so it's both our bads.

Soldier, sniper, pilot... that's a whole new kettle of fish. We're talking about movement and controllers here. That converstation is for another day. I agree though - Battlefield soldiers are pretty super-human when it comes to knowing all the technical details from a helicopter to a tank.

But 180... yeah, I can do that in a game. There's no way of defining a perfect 180, from 1 smack bang on to 180, but the general area that is a 180 turn yeah, I've had to do it a few times.

 

[Warbie]

but you're not factoring the mouse ..

I don't see what difference that makes - one stick does the job of the mouse. The only example I can think of in which a mouse would be benefical for looking around would be in trick jumping maps that need quick and precise spins. For navigating around 99% of games analogue sticks are more than up to the job.

Acceleration wise - which modern games have you played that don't have this?

but in the case of fps quicker and easier = better because your toon's life literally depends on it

Not a problem if everyone has the same control method. Single player wise, quicker and easier aiming can be a problem - slow paced fps are too easy with a mouse. It isn't satisfying moving a crosshair over a slowly moving enemy, it certainly isn't challenging. To combat this some developers introduced the god awful 'waiting for your crosshair to get smaller' before you can shoot way of aiming. This is an absolute pet hate of mine.


I like how tense it is having to slowly take aim with a pad. I've fired a few weapons in my life and it's a steady and measured process - carefully looking down the barrel, making small adjustments. This can be captured so much better with a pad - and that's before the benefits of rumble, triggers, analogue movement etc are taken into account.

I also like that people tend miss more often - not because you're fighting the contrls, but because it's a slower process. You don't get cool John Woo style gun fights with pc shooters - it's easy to aim and you either kill or die very quickly - in RTCW/ET/CS most enconters are over in seconds. Now take Golden Eye or GoW - bullets whiz over shoulders as you run for cover. I've had so many great battles in GE that can only be compared to those in Face Off - dacing around, bullets missing by inches. Doesn't happen with a mouse.

 

[CptStern]

in my experience with controllers you just cant do that ..you'd land by the time you got to 45 degrees ..I can do a 360 with a mouse/keyboard

it's the thumbsticks themselves that are the problem: 1/2 an inch doesnt lend itself to acceleration ..with a mouse and keyboard all that stops me is my physical limitations ..I can turn extremely slow or extremely fast ..depending on how fast/slow I move my mouse ...that just cant be replicated with a controller, especially when you only have a 1/2 on an inch of space to do it in

 

[CptStern]

I don't see what difference that makes - one stick does the job of the mouse. The only example I can think of in which a mouse would be benefical for looking around would be in trick jumping maps that need quick and precise spins. For navigating around 99% of games analogue sticks are more than up to the job.

Acceleration wise - which modern games have you played that don't have this?

umm all of them? :E

I've recently been playing Lego star wars2 ..doesnt have acceleration, also one of the last rainbow six games on the xbox ..it doesnt matter how fast I push my thumstick once it gets to the sticking point it will turn in a predicable manner

Not a problem if everyone has the same control method. Single player wise, quicker and easier aiming can be a problem - slow paced fps are too easy with a mouse.

slow usually means tactical shooter ..which means more realism meaning you can only take a bullet or two before dying

It isn't satisfying moving a crosshair over a slowly moving enemy, it certainly isn't challenging. To combat this some developers introduced the god awful 'waiting for your crosshair to get smaller' before you can shoot way of aiming. This is an absolute pet hate of mine.

but this same mechanic is present in both console games and pc games ..tactical shooters are not hampered by quick reaction times

I like how tense it is having to slowly take aim with a pad.

it's the same with a mouse ..played DoD:S last night and having to steady my garand as an enemy charged me with his shovel is tense as all hell ..mice do not make people expert shooters ..if that were true I'd never get shot in DoD by my teamates

I've fired a few weapons in my life and it's a steady and measured process - carefully looking down the barrel, making small adjustments. This can be captured so much better with a pad - and that's before the benefits of rumble, triggers, analogue movement etc are taken into account.

i dont agree ..gamepads with the bob and predictable movement feels inferior to mice imho ..so much is done for you that sometimes it spoils the immersiveness

I also like that people tend miss more often - not because you're fighting the contrls, but because it's a slower process. You don't get cool John Woo style gun fights with pc shooters - it's easy to aim and you either kill or die very quickly - in RTCW/ET/CS most enconters are over in seconds.

but those are twitch games ..I cant bnegin to tell you the amount of times I've fought toe to toe with an enemy in DoD:S where we've both discharged our weapons, missed each other completely and now are fumbling to see who can reload the fastest (the solution is to knife him while he reloads) ..mice do not guarentee uber aiming ability ..people suck just as much regardless of which tool they use

Now take Golden Eye or GoW - bullets whiz over shoulders as you run for cover. I've had so many great battles in GE that can only be compared to those in Face Off - dacing around, bullets missing by inches. Doesn't happen with a mouse.

you've been playing the wrong games then ..DoD:S surely provides this level of gameplay ..and it doesnt take 30 bullets to finish someone off yet it's very difficult to kill another player at anything more than a dozen paces ...rtcw certainly gave me that tension ..arming a trip wire a split second before the enemy comes around the corner is about as tense as it gets ..but that wouldnt be possible in a console game because tripwire dynamite was a player made mod



here's a good article on balancing controller vs mouse/kb ..basically they had to gimp mouse/kb to even up the playing field ..thought this part was specifically interesting to our discussion:

So for the mouse we also added the idea that if you spin around 180 very quickly your weapon will be less accurate than if you stood still and fired. We take a guess at some values and go into the lab to see how it plays.

http://shadowrun.com/behindthescenes/articles/ControllerBalancing.htm

 

[Warbie]

slow usually means tactical shooter ..which means more realism meaning you can only take a bullet or two before dying



but this same mechanic is present in both console games and pc games ..tactical shooters are not hampered by quick reaction times

I think the mechanic exists on the console versions due to lazy porting and nothing else. It just isn't needed here. By 'slow' I actually meant games games like Halo, GE, GoW - none of which would work as well on amouse imo. I hear what you're saying about DoD:S, but from memory that's also a fair bit quicker than these games.

There's certainly an overlap where I find it hard to decided on a control method - for me pad vs mouse comes down to slow/stealth vs fast/twitch and immersion vs control.

As for the rest, we'll have to agree to disagree

 

[CptStern]

I find a pc far more immersive, I find that using a mouse gives more of a sense that I'm actually in full control of my toon ..consoles feel somewhat controlled ..especially in fps as there's almost always some mechanic that helps you aim ..whereas with mouse it's all you

that said I prefer a controller over a mouse to play games like GTA ..but for hl2 or ET my weapon of choice will always be a mouse/kb

I cant think of a slow game on console that doesnt have a pc counterpart ..I mean Halo was almost all run and gun, you didnt need to be careful at all ..and yes DoD:S is fast paced but only if you want to die a lot ..and I mean a lot ..the most successful players are the ones that sit and wait, inch there way and pull off the incredible one shot that kills you as you round a corner at full speed .***nning and gunning will ensure you die fast

 

[knut]

in my experience with controllers you just cant do that ..you'd land by the time you got to 45 degrees ..I can do a 360 with a mouse/keyboard

it's the thumbsticks themselves that are the problem: 1/2 an inch doesnt lend itself to acceleration ..with a mouse and keyboard all that stops me is my physical limitations ..I can turn extremely slow or extremely fast ..depending on how fast/slow I move my mouse ...that just cant be replicated with a controller, especially when you only have a 1/2 on an inch of space to do it in

I really do not know what controller you are talking of. Your first point; surely that's a problem with the game, then? Perhaps the game you are playing doesn't let you jump that high to do it? The FPS's I play I can, I just did it 20 mins ago when I was in BF2.

I'm holding my 360 controller right now and the thumbsticks turn with such a horrible amount of ease. Seriously, wheeeee! Look at me go! Ahem, but seriously, I also went and tryed with a Gamecube controller and an N64 pad. Easy (although a little stiff from a long time of not playing my N64) and got the same result.

 

[CptStern]

you're not understanding my point ..with only 1/2 inch of moving area you'd have to wait till the preprogrammed movement moved to where you want it to be ..with a mouse, it's all user controlled ...if I jam my controller sharply to the left it will turn at a predictable speed because the movement is tied to the thumbstick ..with a mouse it's my hand/arm that does the entire turn

it's a proven fact that reaction times in turning are slower on a controller than a mouse ..the developers of shadowrun had to gimp the mouse in order for it to be even with a controller