Ragdoll Physics - Blazes!

[André Damli]

Some things have always puzzled my mind in games, like why the weapons are held away from your hip (or if on the hip, your eyes are actually to the left of the crosshair), but right now, what bothers me the most is the use of ragdoll physics.

I believe the term comes from the fact that models will react like a ragdoll does, such as falling down slopes, aligning to the stairs and such, avoiding to always lay horizontally when dead.

The problem, from my point of view, is that game developers make the human models be actual ragdolls, instead of humans.
No human would wave their arms and leg about like they do in Half-Life 2, Dead Man's Hand or any other game I've seen with Ragdoll Physics.
Counter-Strike: Source is the only game I've seen that's closest to using more human physics.
Oh, and DooM 3, I believe. No crazy ness there as far as I remember, even with a modified, powerful Shotgun knockback.

They are supposed to be humans, not ragdolls.
The physics is just a term to how the models CAN react, not how they SHOULD react.

Is there anyone that shares my opinion on this?

 

[Steve]

Naw...that's about what happens every time I shoot somebody.

 

[v1p3r]

The problem, from my point of view, is that game developers make the human models be actual ragdolls, instead of humans.
<bleh>
Counter-Strike: Source is the only game I've seen that's closest to using more human physics.

HL2 and CSS have exactly the same ragdoll physics, they probably even use the same boneweights.

 

[redundant]

Basically, models have a skeleton applied to them, and when they die, they go limp and let whatever forces that need to be applied to them do their thing, i.e. gravity, momentum.

You're always going to see some pretty odd final positions for the models, but that's just the way that it is. The models do have some simple movement restrictions and weighting, but to save on processing power, they're fairly simple.

I don't think it's a big deal, and I personally really like the ragdolls in HL2. Also, and this isn't by any means an attack on you, I don't know how people can say that ragdolls don't look realistic - how many of you have actually shot someone in the belly with a shotgun to have something to compare it with?

 

[André Damli]

I haven't been shot before, but I've certainly fell down on the ground one way or another

I heard from someone that you could restrict the ragdoll physics a bit, like how light or heavy the models are, how far the joints can bend and so on and so forth. To me it seems that CSS uses more restricted physics.
Take for example a grenade on a dead body. The body would spin, performing beautiful piruettes in HL2, but in CSS they just hop, mainly keeping their same position, or do a minor change to their old position (depending on how they died. Someone leaning to a wall would fall down, for example).

I'm quite sure that CSS uses more restricted physics than HL2, but I can stand corrected if proven otherwise.

 

[CriYam]

I haven't been shot before, but I've certainly fell down on the ground one way or another

But when you fell, were you dead?

 

[Alix Mcdean]

HL2 and CSS have exactly the same ragdoll physics, they probably even use the same boneweights.

You sure? Hl2 bodyweight seems to be alot lighter than that in CS:S. You could drop a active nade right next to a corpse and it wouldnt fly very far in CS:S. However in HL2 the bodies tend to fly around a good bit.

One thing I love about the CS:S ragdoll physics is that the feet, hands and head each have heavyer weight, thus the feet wouldnt always slip off the ground and point upwards, they could someitmes stay planted while the rest of the body fell, creating a very realistic look.

-Alix

 

[mikren]

The best realtime ragdoll physics I've seen is in America's Army.
Very realistic.

 

[randomexcess]

Both games use *exactly* the same physics engine. However this doesn't counter the possibility that mass of a character in HL2 is lighter than that in CS:S. The point has got to be, does it really matter, and how cool does it look when bodies fly through the air with their arms and legs flapping around? Are you one of those guys that sits in a movie, and when some guy gets blasted with a gun and flies back about 10m, you stand up and tell everyone "well actually, if you calculate the momentum of that bullet, and the mass of the dead guy, and also account the fact that the bullet exploded *inside* him, it wouldn't have really applied any lateral motion at all, in fact he might have maybe wobbled a little bit".

Naw, you don't, because everyone would go "shush!". Which is what I'm doing now.

 

[m0nKeY]

I really had not noticed this, more than likely because I was to busy firing wildly like a madman and blowing shit up. But does it really make the game bad, for something so simple that the majority really don't care about?

 

[m0nKeY]

Both games use *exactly* the same physics engine. However this doesn't counter the possibility that mass of a character in HL2 is lighter than that in CS:S. The point has got to be, does it really matter, and how cool does it look when bodies fly through the air with their arms and legs flapping around? Are you one of those guys that sits in a movie, and when some guy gets blasted with a gun and flies back about 10m, you stand up and tell everyone "well actually, if you calculate the momentum of that bullet, and the mass of the dead guy, and also account the fact that the bullet exploded *inside* him, it wouldn't have really applied any lateral motion at all, in fact he might have maybe wobbled a little bit".

Naw, you don't, because everyone would go "shush!". Which is what I'm doing now.

Well said. It's all about suspending your beliefs, since when do you want games to become like reality when you want to play them to escape from it...

 

[Alix Mcdean]

Well said. It's all about suspending your beliefs, since when do you want games to become like reality when you want to play them to escape from it...

Oh crap! My bad, brb im gonna go let all the players of Americas Army, The Sims and any other slightly realistic game know that they dont want realism in their video games!
/me looks at DnD papper and puts it in the trash because its a bit toomuch like real life.

-Alix

 

[subtlesnake]

Half-Life 2 is set in a different universe.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Some things have always puzzled my mind in games, like why the weapons are held away from your hip (or if on the hip, your eyes are actually to the left of the crosshair), but right now, what bothers me the most is the use of ragdoll physics.

I believe the term comes from the fact that models will react like a ragdoll does, such as falling down slopes, aligning to the stairs and such, avoiding to always lay horizontally when dead.

The problem, from my point of view, is that game developers make the human models be actual ragdolls, instead of humans.
No human would wave their arms and leg about like they do in Half-Life 2, Dead Man's Hand or any other game I've seen with Ragdoll Physics.
Counter-Strike: Source is the only game I've seen that's closest to using more human physics.
Oh, and DooM 3, I believe. No crazy ness there as far as I remember, even with a modified, powerful Shotgun knockback.

They are supposed to be humans, not ragdolls.
The physics is just a term to how the models CAN react, not how they SHOULD react.

Is there anyone that shares my opinion on this?

You try setup ragdolls to behave like humans would and see how quickly the cpu grinds to a halt.. Sure, there are the odd demo app out there that shows that, but human bodies also rip and tear under extreme pressure. So you'd have to put that into it too.. its just too complex right now to pull it off to that level of realism. The current method is a good medium and looks fine. If you don't like it, you can always close your eyes everytime you kill someone.

 

[Asuka]

Basically, models have a skeleton applied to them, and when they die, they go limp and let whatever forces that need to be applied to them do their thing, i.e. gravity, momentum.

You're always going to see some pretty odd final positions for the models, but that's just the way that it is. The models do have some simple movement restrictions and weighting, but to save on processing power, they're fairly simple.

I don't think it's a big deal, and I personally really like the ragdolls in HL2. Also, and this isn't by any means an attack on you, I don't know how people can say that ragdolls don't look realistic - how many of you have actually shot someone in the belly with a shotgun to have something to compare it with?

I agree. The Physics in hl2 are really good. They also look very nice. I dont have any problem with them.

 

[m0nKeY]

Oh crap! My bad, brb im gonna go let all the players of Americas Army, The Sims and any other slightly realistic game know that they dont want realism in their video games!
/me looks at DnD papper and puts it in the trash because its a bit toomuch like real life.

-Alix

Their are different degrees of realism. It is not essential for every last detail to be perfect. Simulation games are designed to be realistic. AA is a action/simulation. Half-Life doesn't fall in to that category being a action/adventure game.

Expecting a game like HL to be realstic is stupid. Unless you think Xen really exists... maybe it does? :0

 

[Alix Mcdean]

Well considering I AM Gordon Freeman, then yes, Xen does exist because I exist.

I think.

-Alix

 

[Sanius]

Well, from my knowledge of playing some CS:S, I have seen that the bodies are heavier then hl2's. I haven't PLAYED HL2 yet, I am this christmas. (woo! hl2, new videocard )

I wish the ragdolls in cs:s were lighter, it made me angry how if you tosses a gernade right at a body, it just flew a foot or two, then fell to the ground. but videos of hl2dm i've seen, they fly across the room!

 

[NachoMan]

I think we have over the top ragdoll effects just because it's relatively new.

Like any new technology in computer games, they always get abused at first because there's always a need to impress the gaming masses. Remember when we first got coloured lighting in games?, or the first time we had bumpmapping, or shaders... once the novelty wears off, they will probably start to integrate them into the game a bit better.

Also, I don't think we're going to get a huge improvement in physics until we get the next gen of processors, as they're already the limiting factor in most games already, better quality physics would make them struggle even more, so for the time being, developers need to make sacrifices in physics realism.

 

[ryanmw]

to the person that posted this thread:

have you ever seen a dead body being blown up by a grenade? have you ever shot someone in the head and saw what happend to theyre body?....seriously i dont think you know what happens to a dead body unless youve been to war or something...so how can you compare?

 

[randomexcess]

Oh crap! My bad, brb im gonna go let all the players of Americas Army, The Sims and any other slightly realistic game know that they dont want realism in their video games!
/me looks at DnD papper and puts it in the trash because its a bit toomuch like real life.

-Alix

Hell yeah ... TBH I don't know why anyone would want to play the Sims ... real life is far more interesting. If you want to see people die realistically, why not go the whole hog and actually sign up with the army? Oh sorry... in real life when you die, you can't just load up your last quicksave. And if you spend too much time watching the corpses fall, you'll be one yourself in no time ;P

 

[Mountain Man]

Half-Life 2's ragdolls aren't supposed to be realistic, they're supposed to be entertaining, and they do their job exceptionally well.

 

[Shadow112090]

i didnt find it that unrealistic, except for people with there legs around their head. it takes into account bones, but not muscle tension

 

[Mr.Wotsit]

I think everyone knows that they aren't totally realistic but it's cool to have an emphasised version of the world. Like an action movie

 

[Harmless]

The physics are definitey hmm.... exagerated but I think it's a good way to show off what the engine can do.

 

[:Rex Saw:]

No human would wave their arms and leg about like they do in Half-Life 2

You'd think that, but if you happen to get your hands on any videos showing explosions where humans are involved or car crash videos where someone is ejected or a bull fighter getting really jacked up or something of the sort you will see that the human body, when met with some significant force and especially when unconscious, DOES behave like a ragdoll.

In fact we commonly describe bodies in the aforementioned situations as looking like a ragdoll or "being thrown around like a ragdoll." Clearly these physics cannot fully duplicate real-world bone structure, but they're pretty close.

 

[Mouldy Punk]

Dead bodies are as limp as can be (I was going to make a comparison but decided against it ) I don't know from personal experience, but, you said that you have fallen and it wasn't like it is in CSS or HL2. This is because you are alive, whether you are conciously tensing a muscle or not doesn't matter. The fact is you are alive and it's instinct to make some sort of movement if you are about to fall face first. If your dead, you can't move so its just up to gravity, momentum and the general forces acting on your body and limbs.

 

[André Damli]

"have you ever seen a dead body being blown up by a grenade? have you ever shot someone in the head and saw what happened to they're body?....seriously i don't think you know what happens to a dead body unless you've been to war or something...so how can you compare?"

No, but I know a body doesn't bend like that.

There's also a difference between realism and stupidity. Making something NOT close to realism because the game isn't meant to be realistic is a very, very stupid approach.

But this hasn't anything to do with realism or how real time physics work, so you can take your "Are you the kind of guy that stands up..." comments back where it came from.

I also don't believe you'd need that amazing CPU power to make it look natural. Some simple restrictions to how far a limb can bend and some weight (which I believe HL2's ragdoll physics already have) is all you'd need.

I don't mind bodies flying far when lobbing a grenade at them, it's just how they fall that makes me raise my eyebrow, wondering what the hell happened.

Lastly, while I wasn't dead while falling, I wasn't aware of the fact that I was falling until I hit the ground. My body didn't go dancing around.

 

[Bobcat]

The thing that's boggling me is that when an enemy dies, they instantly become ragdolls.

Not that that's a bad thing, but you have to admit, there is a special thing to it when your enemy grabs to his face after a headshot, or falling down to his knees giving a final flinch after which lying lifeless on the ground.

I'm just saying that it would be nice with some random semi-death-animations, if you catch my drift.

Another odd example, place a combine 200 feet above ground in mid-air, let him fall.

Does he flinch and throw his arms about screaming as he plunges to the ground? No...

 

[oMeSSiaHo]

I once voluntered at an ER and as much as I hate to admit it I have played with dead bodies. When you die your brain is no longer telling your mussels to contstrict and react and you do become like a ragdoll. Dropping a dead persons arm is not the same as relaxing your arm and dropping it. Your brain is still in control of your mussels.

 

[CookieCuttah]

Hey if you unhappy with realism..They have a Russian game coming out like at end of 2005, it will have muscle tearing, real hair/fur,multiple skin lairs, bone breaking and realistic ragdolls to add on. Though im sure you would eventually find something else to bitch about. = /

 

[Ultimape]

nice, that games sounds gory

 

[Alix Mcdean]

...that...game...sounds...awesome.

The name you must give, hrmmm.

-Alix

 

[mbrithoms]

I think what he is trying to say is HL2 has no 'movie' type deaths, when you get shot you die (although he does have a point, instant death ALL the time is a little wierd) a good example of animation blending is in Pacific assault the character will go through one of the animations when shot then into ragdoll (even though the ragdolls in pacific assault have a lot to be desired) when it works its works REALLY well and when it doesnt it verges on comical

 

[ktimekiller]

simple explanation, when you get shot in real life, and you fall, you aint dead yet, after you fall, then you die, so when you get shot, your body will react, and think of all the organs, and the weight and how tall that person is, and all the organs in the person. in ragdolls, when you kill them, there is no human movement, you die rightaway, so there is a big difference.