Read and weep, Absinthe.

BabyHeadCrab

BabyHeadCrab

The Freeman
Joined
Dec 2, 2003
Messages
23
Reaction score
602
WARNING: The following topic is WoW related

More lore down the tubes, yay!​

New 25 man raid dungeon in BC featuring the Sun Well and Kil'Jaeden as its final encounter

Curse said:
A new raid dungeon harder than Black Temple will be added before the expansion. Expect this to be the Sunwell Plateau with the final boss being Kil'Jaeden.
Click to expand...

And then 25 random n00bs from assorted areas of Azeroth, more than likely equipped to the teeth with 1337 ep1x invaded the hiding spot of Kil'Jaeden, Master of the Burning Legion, laying down the pwn4age and receiving better than average l00tz.

:|
 
The only reason why "lore" was created was so it can be used in games,there is no pint in crying about this.
 
Yes, there is.

When Warcraft IV rolls around there'll be no universe to set it in at this rate.

Not that Warcraft IV will roll around for a long, long time, but it will. One day.
 
Maybe they want to finish off the warcraft franchise, but it seems kind of diminishing to me that the burning legion ?ber boss can be defeated by 25 "heroes"
 
..so..you fight kil'jaeden...than Arthas..and than uh....Whats left? D:
 
Lore will have really gone to shit when they add a race that crashed to earth on an inter-dimensional space ship. OH WAIT!
 
That was the only reason i played WC3 - the plot existed, wasn't the best out there - but it seemed deeper than the surface...

Thanks Blizzard, cash cow all the way to hell.
 
I dont really see where they'd go with a warcraft IV if there going to have you fight the all these major characters in WoW.

The only thing I could see them doing for a Warcraft IV would actually be to go over the events that happen in WoW and just use that as the story. Would work I guess for people who want to continue the story but don't want to pay a monthly fee too see it >_>
 
You know, if they can make it seem somewhat plausible via other major characters fighting with you or otherwise interacting in the encounter, I don't feel too bad about this.

However - and this seems more likely - if they turn it into another typical tank/spank fight where 25 mere mortals kill the ****ing master of the Burning Legion, I will eat a developer's baby. And if he dies, I better expect something ****ing dramatic. Not some generic, inane, villain banter like we got with Illidan. But seeing as how they've done a pretty good job of shitting over so much in BC, I'm not going to hold my breath.

I guess after taking out the Lich King and Kil'jaeden, we'll finally get a crack at a 25-man Sargeras raid. Woo.
 
Tick said:
The only reason why "lore" was created was so it can be used in games,there is no pint in crying about this.
Click to expand...

Uhh... what? Yes, stories are made to be used in games. Obviously... I think.

It's a matter of whether or not the lore is handled well. Vanilla WoW managed fine, but it wasn't too risky because you were generally fighting unknowns and side villains that didn't play big parts (if any) in the previous games. Come BC with all its anticipation and so many of the characters are being bumped off ceremoniously or transformed through hack writing to justify apparently arbitrary decisions to make them killable. As an example: Illidan, arguably the largest character in recent WoW history who you could fight, had one of the most ignoble and stupid transitions of character, as well as one of the most disappointing and even frustrating demises.
 
They really tricked us with that whole Illidan thing too. I clearly remember a bunch of interviews where they said that we'd only be "getting in his way" and not really killing him or anything. So most people assumed he was gonna give some huge speech at 1% and just fly the **** out of the temple or something. Instead we got some bullshit, and he dies D:
 
Guess they could make a Warcraft IV based on events before WoW and WC III
 
OMFG NO NO NO NO!
Now blizzard is just bieng stupid.
Right, so 25 level 70's can take down the current leaderof the Burning legion. ROFL right. :rolleyes: Aw well, I'll end up doing it anyway, no point QQing.

EDIT: and your proboaly right absinthe, knowing blizzard we will fight Sageras, and the old gods, and Ashzara...and everyone else...and still win.
 
If there is a WC4, I honestly think it would be in the game's interests to ignore WoW. So much has had to be twisted. Blizzard has never come out and said how much, if any, of the lore in the game is considered canon (ie. If I kill Deathwing in WoW, is he considered officially dead?). But everybody's sort of accepted that the moment a character becomes killable in a quest context, he's gone.
 
I don't know why people think there will be a warcraft 4, because really, in WoW wwe are gonna kill everyone, so no-one will be left. Thats not to say I wouldn't want a warcraft 4, btu if the did what absinthe suggests and wipe wow's lore of the map, then many wow players (including myself) would be pissed for playing through that for nothing.
 
The whole Archimonde kill was complete bullshit as well.
 
I have no idea what`s going on and what this lore is.

Did Blizzard just **** the main warcraft story over or something?
 
Forty million Wisps and a two mile fall killed Archimonde.

Twenty-five players will kill Kil'Jaeden?
 
Wow, less QQing please. Would you be this pissed off if you managed to kill major villians and characters from WC3 in WC4? The warcraft plot was created in the first 3 games, what's wrong with it being furthered in a different genre of game? The only thing i'll agree on is the lackluster explanations of why we're killing some characters and from what i've heard the epicness of the fights.
 
Aye, Hyjal sucked. I expected a badass LOTR fight.
Aw well, it would be cooler if Kil'jeaden smashed up Quel'Thalas to get there but aw well xD.
You'll all have to excuse my previous reaction. Blizzard always gets me like that. "Kill kel'thuzad, kill Arhtas, kill keal, etc."

Septih said:
Wow, less QQing please. Would you be this pissed off if you managed to kill major villians and characters from WC3 in WC4? The warcraft plot was created in the first 3 games, what's wrong with it being furthered in a different genre of game? The only thing i'll agree on is the lackluster explanations of why we're killing some characters and from what i've heard the epicness of the fights.
Click to expand...

Er, the fact that 25 level 70 adventurers can kill the lord of the burning legion and Sargeras' right hand?
 
But I'm sure you'd all be just perfectly happy to kill no-name villains, I can already see the advertising of WoW expansions:
"Kill Bob the Ogre who did some very mean things in Elwynn Forest"

You all know main characters are going to have to die to keep this interesting, this isn't a Warcraft game without interacting with the big names of the Warcraft universe. And yes, WoW will be the game that progresses the lore, none of it will be considered canon (besides perhaps Kel'Thuzad in Naxxramas who is apparently going to die again in Wrath of the Lich King) but it won't be "25 randoms killed the mighty Lich King" but the lore that will be used later for books/games will be that Maiev and Akama killed Illidan, or that Tirion Fordring killed the Lich King with the Ashbringer, with perhaps a side mention of the army of adventurers. Nothing of the lore will be ruined, after all: you wouldn't complain if the Lich King would have died by the hands of Tirion in Warcraft 4. Hell, Maiev already captured Illidan in Warcraft 3, I really don't see the problem in what happened with Illidan.

Blizzard isn't stupid, so far every big name has either been killed in a weakened state (Ragnaros, C'Thun, Hakkar) or the adventurers got assistance by another big name. But how should Blizzard otherwise do it? Have Illidan hit for 25k and oneshot tanks because "he's a big name, a raid of 25 couldn't POSSIBLY kill him!"?

Look, there's two options: either you don't kill any characters of importance or you just have to suspend your disbelief for a while.
 
A Warcraft 4..... after these past years of World of Warcraft.....? Hah.
 
I srsly doubt there will be a warcraft 4 for some reason. But I soppuse blizz are greedy bastards and would milk it still.
 
Having read though that again, I can safely say its baseless fan speculation - until there is an official annoucnement I am not going to accept Kil'jeaden is the final boss of the sunwell.
 
Atomic_Piggy said:
Having read though that again, I can safely say its baseless fan speculation - until there is an official annoucnement I am not going to accept Kil'jeaden is the final boss of the sunwell.
Click to expand...

Well, the loot is better than BT, so the final boss will be harder than Illidan. And who is more powerful than Illidan? Yeah, it's speculation, but not crazy speculation.
 
But it can't honeslty be suggested that it would take 25 70's to bring down kil'jeaden, but however many (proboaly 25 or 40) level 80's to bring down the Lich King? The King (as I call him) has only just came into existance (in cosmic timeframes) while Kil has been around for god knows how many hundreds of thousands of years.
I'm not saying its not, but I srsly doubt its kil'jeaden.
 
Atomic_Piggy said:
But it can't honeslty be suggested that it would take 25 70's to bring down kil'jeaden, but however many (proboaly 25 or 40) level 80's to bring down the Lich King? The King (as I call him) has only just came into existance (in cosmic timeframes) while Kil has been around for god knows how many hundreds of thousands of years.
I'm not saying its not, but I srsly doubt its kil'jeaden.
Click to expand...

Well, didn't Kil'Jaeden need the help of Illidan to kill Arthas BEFORE he even became the Lich King? I think the Lich King is much stronger than Kil'Jaeden. Kil'Jaeden was about on par with Archimonde according to WoWWiki. And I'll doubt we'll get to kill him unassisted / at full strength. Bosses like Ragnaros, Hakkar and C'Thun should have been far too strong for level 60 raids, but they weren't at full strength. Likely to be the same for Kil'Jaeden. Or like Kael'thas where the raid is greatly buffed in power to be able to take him down.
 
Perhaps. We'll just have to wait and see.
If he was at the well, he'd proboaly be there to empower sargeras or something. As long as the excuse isn't to lame.
 
Eh, what do I care? it's not the same Blizzard that made Warcraft 3 (and all previous games) afterall, therefore, I don't consider it canon.
 
I believe its a different department of blizzard. The team that made WCIII is currently working on SCII, IIRC.
 
But the story writer is the same guy. Chris Metzen. Therefore, WoW is canon, as he wrote the other warcrafts as well.
 
Septih said:
Wow, less QQing please. Would you be this pissed off if you managed to kill major villians and characters from WC3 in WC4? The warcraft plot was created in the first 3 games, what's wrong with it being furthered in a different genre of game? The only thing i'll agree on is the lackluster explanations of why we're killing some characters and from what i've heard the epicness of the fights.
Click to expand...

Shall be addressed below.
 
PvtRyan said:
But I'm sure you'd all be just perfectly happy to kill no-name villains, I can already see the advertising of WoW expansions:
"Kill Bob the Ogre who did some very mean things in Elwynn Forest"

You all know main characters are going to have to die to keep this interesting, this isn't a Warcraft game without interacting with the big names of the Warcraft universe. And yes, WoW will be the game that progresses the lore, none of it will be considered canon (besides perhaps Kel'Thuzad in Naxxramas who is apparently going to die again in Wrath of the Lich King) but it won't be "25 randoms killed the mighty Lich King" but the lore that will be used later for books/games will be that Maiev and Akama killed Illidan, or that Tirion Fordring killed the Lich King with the Ashbringer, with perhaps a side mention of the army of adventurers. Nothing of the lore will be ruined, after all: you wouldn't complain if the Lich King would have died by the hands of Tirion in Warcraft 4. Hell, Maiev already captured Illidan in Warcraft 3, I really don't see the problem in what happened with Illidan.

Blizzard isn't stupid, so far every big name has either been killed in a weakened state (Ragnaros, C'Thun, Hakkar) or the adventurers got assistance by another big name. But how should Blizzard otherwise do it? Have Illidan hit for 25k and oneshot tanks because "he's a big name, a raid of 25 couldn't POSSIBLY kill him!"?

Look, there's two options: either you don't kill any characters of importance or you just have to suspend your disbelief for a while.
Click to expand...

You mischaracterize our arguments. Or at least mine.

This is not an issue with killing major lore characters. This is an issue with the development and execution of such denouements being lazy and half-assed. Even if such events are not considered canon in future WC games, they are still very weak on their own.

I am not opposed to being able to kill major characters. I'm all for it if such deaths are handled with nuance and with a certain "epic" feel. But this has not happened. Illidan is the most prominent and recent example. A tortured, misguided anti-hero is turned into a generic villain because he went insane. I think this was pretty crap, but I could have swallowed it if the handling of his encounter drew from his history. If it had drawn upon his feuding relationship with his brother or his pathetic, unrequited love for Tyrande. If it involved significant characters that had largely shaped his development and could have concluded his life with finality and resolution. You cannot tell me that conjuring Maiev Shadowsong back from the dead - a character that nobody liked and was arguably just as twisted and vengeance-driven as Illidan himself - was a good way of closing his chapter. Personal preference perhaps, but you cannot convince me that a character who went toe to toe with Arthas getting offed by 25 players with little outside, magic assistance (ignoring the she-bitch) is satisfactory from a story standpoint. Considering the very rich backstory that the game has, I believe that Blizzard had many ways in which they could have handled the fight and death of Illidan far more successfully. Instead they opted for something lame and simple.

I don't think Blizzard is stupid. I do believe, however, that much of their handling of lore has shifted towards a loot-grind paradigm in which they are content with churning out content for the sake of raiding while utilizing characters with token purposes. As if the inclusion of these people is merely to remind you that you're playing a WC game, even though it doesn't have to make much sense.

Main characters do need to die to keep things interesting. But this is on the condition that their deaths are done well. Otherwise, it's not interesting. It's just disappointing.
 
Illidan? I remember killing him so many times in WC3. He kept respawning from those altars, though :|

Is Absinthe weeping yet?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Sedako
The Huxley watch thread
Replies
22
Views
1K
Kyorisu
Kyorisu
Back
Top