Read and weep, Absinthe.

[PvtRyan]

You mischaracterize our arguments. Or at least mine.

This is not an issue with killing major lore characters. This is an issue with the development and execution of such denouements being lazy and half-assed. Even if such events are not considered canon in future WC games, they are still very weak on their own.

I am not opposed to being able to kill major characters. I'm all for it if such deaths are handled with nuance and with a certain "epic" feel. But this has not happened. Illidan is the most prominent and recent example. A tortured, misguided anti-hero is turned into a generic villain because he went insane. I think this was pretty crap, but I could have swallowed it if the handling of his encounter drew from his history. If it had drawn upon his feuding relationship with his brother or his pathetic, unrequited love for Tyrande. If it involved significant characters that had largely shaped his development and could have concluded his life with finality and resolution. You cannot tell me that conjuring Maiev Shadowsong back from the dead - a character that nobody liked and was arguably just as twisted and vengeance-driven as Illidan himself - was a good way of closing his chapter. Personal preference perhaps, but you cannot convince me that a character who went toe to toe with Arthas getting offed by 25 players with little outside, magic assistance (ignoring the she-bitch) is satisfactory from a story standpoint. Considering the very rich backstory that the game has, I believe that Blizzard had many ways in which they could have handled the fight and death of Illidan far more successfully. Instead they opted for something lame and simple.

I don't think Blizzard is stupid. I do believe, however, that much of their handling of lore has shifted towards a loot-grind paradigm in which they are content with churning out content for the sake of raiding while utilizing characters with token purposes. As if the inclusion of these people is merely to remind you that you're playing a WC game, even though it doesn't have to make much sense.

Main characters do need to die to keep things interesting. But this is on the condition that their deaths are done well. Otherwise, it's not interesting. It's just disappointing.

In your examples it's all Illidan, but by your talking Blizzard must have screwed up many more big fights. But I can't think of any, Ragnaros, C'thun, Onyxia, Nefarian, Kel'Thuzad were all pretty epic fights with a decent story leading up to them. And I don't think Illidan is one either, he wasn't just dumped in there to serve as bait to buy the expansion, because the entire expansion really does revolve around him, and finally culminating in his death. Blizzard really did craft an elaborate plot involving all big characters (Illidan, Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, Maghteridon) that can be seen throughout Outland. All things happening in Outland somehow involve Illidan and his alliance with Vashj and Kael'thas, like the Fel Orcs and Magtheridon and the draining of Zangarmarsh. It's all connected really and saying Illidan was just thrown in there as a simple token character to give the game WC appeal is not giving Blizzard enough credit.

Lore wise, I don't think there's reason to complain about Illidan's death, his motives were clear and enough reason to want him dead. The only valid complaint could be that he shouldn't be defeated by a 25 man raid with assistance of Maiev, but I think you're either overestimating Illidan or underestimating Maiev and the army of adventurers (remember, Blizzard once said level 60 players with BWL gear were about as powerful as level 3 WC heroes and I guess level 70's in tier 6 are at least twice as powerful). After all, Maiev did capture Illidan before. Maiev is indeed almost as bad as Illidan himself, but that was sort of the moral of the story; don't let the obsession take you over, which is also re-iterated at his death with the "the hunter is nothing without the hunt". I don't see why Maiev would have to be a likable character and I don't see who his nemesis should have otherwise been.

Perhaps Blizzard could've done it better, but that's always the case. But I think the initial "you won't kill Illidan, he'll escape" was much, much lamer than this.

 

[Absinthe]

It's not just Illidan. Lady Vashj had a similarly boring end. Kael'thas may not have died, but his entire transformation of character was sudden, uninspired, and all too convenient in order to have players fight him. In all likeliness, the only reason he was spared was because he can be used as a segue to more Burning Legion content later.

You keep bringing up the likes of C'thun and Ragnaros. To that I ask: who cares? We had little if any information on these characters prior to WoW. They were one-stop detours, introduced as villains as quickly as they were slain. What role did Hakkar play in WC1-3? None, as far as I can tell. Comparing them to established lore characters that we have prior experience with isn't the same. Basically, I don't give a shit if Onyxia didn't have the best demise ever because she never existed prior to WoW.

There certainly is a story leading up to BT, although I hate it and think it's stupid. Is it all connected to Illidan? Yes, but Illidan could just have been replaced by some carbon copy villain since the last boss of BT exhibits practically none of what made his character in WC3 or TFT. It seems like Blizzard put a lot of effort into making the likes of Kael and Illidan villanous... for some inane, unknown reason. Magtheridon comes back from the dead, Illidan starts pumping out fel orcs and waging war on Shattrath for the hell of it, Kael'thas turns into a nasty racist who <3's the Burning Legion now. But why? Oh wait, they went insane. I guess that makes everything fine and the foundation of BC gold.

Maiev was not central to Illidan's story arc IMO. She was certainly an antagonist, but did not approach anywhere near the level of development Malfurion or Tyrande played. She was a yipping brat that players witnessed engage in deception and betrayal. At no point did I consider her an ally and at no point did I want to help her. This is not an indication of my personal bias. This is an indication of how poor Blizzard's choice of characters was. If you're going to kill off a major character from WC3 and TFT, then why would you settle for resurrecting a twisted corpse in Outland (which is exactly what Maiev was prior to BC) as some lite nemesis to fight Illidan as if to conclude some epic struggle between the two that never really existed in the first place?

The moral of obsession was far more succinctly and eloquently expressed with Maiev chasing Illidan in futility across the barren wastes of Outland, dying as a husk consumed by her own obsession over capturing Illidan. Instead, Illidan keels over, Maiev mumbles a single-line existential reflection, and everybody goes off on their merry way. No, this is balls.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

I don't dislike Maiev as a character - in fact I think shes a brilliant character. But she is a bitch.

 

[Absinthe]

Fair enough. I still think she was better off dead and that Blizzard's decision to use her as the final tool of conflict resolution with Illidan was extremely poor. :\

Illidan isn't even a favorite character of mine. My opinion of him veers between like and dislike. So it's not like I'm arguing from some platform of favoritism when I say his death sucked. No, such colorful rants shall be saved for Zul'Aman...

 

[i am HOLLYWOOD]

It's not just Illidan. Lady Vashj had a similarly boring end. Kael'thas may not have died, but his entire transformation of character was sudden, uninspired, and all too convenient in order to have players fight him. In all likeliness, the only reason he was spared was because he can be used as a segue to more Burning Legion content later.

You keep bringing up the likes of C'thun and Ragnaros. To that I ask: who cares? We had little if any information on these characters prior to WoW. They were one-stop detours, introduced as villains as quickly as they were slain. What role did Hakkar play in WC1-3? None, as far as I can tell. Comparing them to established lore characters that we have prior experience with isn't the same. Basically, I don't give a shit if Onyxia didn't have the best demise ever because she never existed prior to WoW.

There certainly is a story leading up to BT, although I hate it and think it's stupid. Is it all connected to Illidan? Yes, but Illidan could just have been replaced by some carbon copy villain since the last boss of BT exhibits practically none of what made his character in WC3 or TFT. It seems like Blizzard put a lot of effort into making the likes of Kael and Illidan villanous... for some inane, unknown reason. Magtheridon comes back from the dead, Illidan starts pumping out fel orcs and waging war on Shattrath for the hell of it, Kael'thas turns into a nasty racist who <3's the Burning Legion now. But why? Oh wait, they went insane. I guess that makes everything fine and the foundation of BC gold.

Maiev was not central to Illidan's story arc IMO. She was certainly an antagonist, but did not approach anywhere near the level of development Malfurion or Tyrande played. She was a yipping brat that players witnessed engage in deception and betrayal. At no point did I consider her an ally and at no point did I want to help her. This is not an indication of my personal bias. This is an indication of how poor Blizzard's choice of characters was. If you're going to kill off a major character from WC3 and TFT, then why would you settle for resurrecting a twisted corpse in Outland (which is exactly what Maiev was prior to BC) as some lite nemesis to fight Illidan as if to conclude some epic struggle between the two that never really existed in the first place?

The moral of obsession was far more succinctly and eloquently expressed with Maiev chasing Illidan in futility across the barren wastes of Outland, dying as a husk consumed by her own obsession over capturing Illidan. Instead, Illidan keels over, Maiev mumbles a single-line existential reflection, and everybody goes off on their merry way. No, this is balls.

i've been playing Warcraft games since i was 8. . .

and i have to agree with you. . .


i stopped playing WoW right as BC launched partly because of the story gayness. . .

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Fair enough. I still think she was better off dead and that Blizzard's decision to use her as the final tool of conflict resolution with Illidan was extremely poor. :\

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't disagreeing with you. D: