Realistic Clothing and Hair

SirMcNugget

SirMcNugget

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How much has been said on the possibility of writing a seperate system for hair and clothing physics in the source engine. I know that it dosent include a seperate system for either on its own but I think the ability to add it would really liven up the character designs. Especially with the amazing facial animation system already there you could really make some beliveable models. Im thinking something on par with what you see in say the newer aditions to the Dead or Alive series. Non static hair and clothing really bring the character models to life. I bet it wouldnt be impossible given the fact that the physics system can be used on such a wide range of objects. Any comments?
 
Yeah. The character face animations are so amazing yet the clothing and hair don't seem very real to me, or at least when you go up close.

Dead Or Alive games on Xbox have far better clothing and hair.
 
Problem is, Dead or Alive doesn't need to render huge levels, they are focusing on the characters. (fighting game). Half-life 2 on the other hand does so much more stuff, hair and clothing would take too much of PC power.
 
Real clothing grafix should have those wrinkles on coats and stuff, and the haird should be dynamic as the rag-doll physics, for example, movie you character to the left and the hair will sway(realisticly)
 
We haven't seen any examples of long hair yet anyways.
All of the detailed characters we've seen so far have relatively short hair, Alyx included.
But yes, Dead or Alive focuses on character models, that's why most levels aren't very detailed.
It allows for much more freedom and detail in the character models, especially when there's only two on the screen at a time in most cases.
 
I realize all of the things that have been mentioned, I would be quite willing to bet that those are the reasons that Valve didnt do anything like that. I was just wondering about the future and the possibility of adding things like this. Certainly the scope of possibilities with HL1 has expanded since its release. Maybe some day we will see a mod with character models that can match the impressiveness of their surroundings.
 
Well, Valve said they will release free updates to their engine, so I bet with some time passed, we will get some cool things, like hair , clothing, etc.
 
That would be really cool :) I guess you can think of this tread as a "wouldnt it be sweet" thread. Cause I do realize that rendering decent hair and clothing would tax system resources quite a bit.
 
Real clothing should actually be a model of itself, not part of the model of the character.

Doom 3 is the closest thing I've seen to Dead Or Alive quality clothing in an FPS.
 
I think that clothing and hair looks pretty descent in HL2, actually. Yeah it would be nice to have something like that in the future, but it's probably #100 on my list. Then again, I never asked for high-poly models either until I saw the ones in HL2.
 
Originally posted by LoneDeranger
I think that clothing and hair looks pretty descent in HL2, actually. Yeah it would be nice to have something like that in the future, but it's probably #100 on my list. Then again, I never asked for high-poly models either until I saw the ones in HL2.
Click to expand...

High poly counts are not very important for this generation of FPS games. Developers are actually using lower poly counts but using bumpmapping and/or normal mapping to make the characters look even better than the games of last gen that strived for higher polys...

I'm not sure if Half-Life 2 specifically uses that technique, but games like Doom 3 and Halo 2 do.
 
Originally posted by Lifthz
High poly counts are not very important for this generation of FPS games. Developers are actually using lower poly counts but using bumpmapping and/or normal mapping to make the characters look even better than the games of last gen that strived for higher polys...

I'm not sure if Half-Life 2 specifically uses that technique, but games like Doom 3 and Halo 2 do.
Click to expand...

You can do a lot of cool things by using bumpmapping, however you will never achieve the kind realistic characters that Half-Life 2 has.
 
Originally posted by LoneDeranger
You can do a lot of cool things by using bumpmapping, however you will never achieve the kind realistic characters that Half-Life has.
Click to expand...

Tell that to Doom 3 and Halo 2. Doom 3 especially because it uses both normal and bump mapping. They don't have the facial animations though, that's for sure. But Doom 3's models actually look more detailed and the clothes also looks far more detailed (though not necessarily more realistic due to other factors..)

Also, Half-Life 2 may indeed be using the same technique. So if so, you're definitely wrong.
 
Originally posted by BlumenKohl
Sorry you have to play Deus Ex 2 for realistic clothing. :cool:
Click to expand...

Deus Ex 2? I dunno, Deus Ex 2 isn't as impressive as these games. Same goes for Thief III (same modified Unreal engine). Perhaps they have better clothing texture though, i'm not sure... i'll have to check.
 
Originally posted by Lifthz
Yeah. The character face animations are so amazing yet the clothing and hair don't seem very real to me, or at least when you go up close.

Dead Or Alive games on Xbox have far better clothing and hair.
Click to expand...

Cloth and hair in DOA is also fully animated, not dynamic, nor is it actually "cloth and hair" Just clever texturing and animation.

Cloth, Hair and liquids still take hours to render on the phatest rig.

Do a seach, this has been discussed and people had some interesting things to say about it.
 
Originally posted by Lifthz
Tell that to Doom 3 and Halo 2. Doom 3 especially because it uses both normal and bump mapping. They don't have the facial animations though, that's for sure. But Doom 3's models actually look more detailed and the clothes also looks far more detailed (though not necessarily more realistic due to other factors..)
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but Doom 3 do not look nearly as detailed. I'm not even talking about the square-headed imp. This is the best Doom 3 screenshot I could find, and even there you can still see how blocky the models are. (the low-res textures don't help either)

http://www.gamenavigator***/pub/gallery/10662.jpg

Halo 2 looks a bit better, but still nowhere as close as HL2. I don't even think there is any argument here at all.
 
Originally posted by LoneDeranger
I'm sorry but Doom 3 do not look nearly as detailed. I'm not even talking about the square-headed imp. This is the best Doom 3 screenshot I could find, and even there you can still see how blocky the models are. (the low-res textures don't help either)

http://www.gamenavigator***/pub/gallery/10662.jpg

Halo 2 looks a bit better, but still nowhere as close as HL2. I don't even think there is any argument here at all.
Click to expand...

Those are definitely not great screenshots and all in medium detail too... the human character models in Doom 3 are way more detailed in terms of texturing. Why would you compare monster model to a human model? That's just not smart.

If you compare actually videos the difference would be much clearer to judge. I've seen the videos of HL2, and i've seen the video and i've played the Doom 3 alpha.

The textures in Doom 3 for the clothing and stuff on characters are DEFINITELY more detailed than Half-Life 2's as far as i've seen...
 
Originally posted by Lifthz
Umm... the human character models in Doom 3 are way more detailed.
Click to expand...

Dude, what are you talking about? If you're saying that the guy in that picture looks more detailed then Alyx (or G-Man, or Dr. Kleiner) you either need glasses or you're some sort of a Doom 3 troll.
 
Umm... now i'm a Doom 3 troll? I was just a S.T.A.L.K.E.R troll too. Just because I believe some aspects look better doesn't mean anything man.

Half-Life 2's characters have far better faces and they look more realistic because of the animations. However, texture wise (detail-wise) Doom 3's characters are more detailed overally....
 
Originally posted by Lifthz

The textures in Doom 3 for the clothing and stuff on characters are DEFINITELY more detailed than Half-Life 2's as far as i've seen...
Click to expand...

I'll believe you when you post me a screenshot of that. I have seen 100's of D3 screens and not one of them was nearly that detailed.
 
Simulating cloth is, as I think Gabe said at some point, a next step. I know that the Source Vampire game has a "cloth" engine.

Mainly, things like cloth and hair that bend and bounce use a different physics model than Half-life 2 currently uses: mass-sping or static or one of the dynamic models, as opposed to the rigid body model that HL2 currently uses. Rigid body physics are much easier to calculate.
 
Yeah, simulating clothing is a "next step" for FPS games that is.... because Dead Or ALive 3 does it better than any game i've seen yet. Clothes actually sway in the wind and realistically move according to the character's body movements. And the detail on the clothing is also amazing in that game. etc.
 
Yeah, simulating clothing is a "next step" for FPS games that is.... because Dead Or ALive 3 does it better than any game i've seen yet.
Click to expand...

DoA doesn't simulate clothing as far as I know or can tell. Those are animation frames: well done certainly, but by no means based on any sort of actual dynamic physics model. The problem is not getting some well rendered characters into a game, but doing that AND putting them in a complex interactive environment where it's all working off the same system, including the characters.
 
Nope- vb truncates the URLs, so copy/paste wont work. Getting frustrated yet? :) Try a link to the page which the screenshots are on, and then explain to us which one you're talking about.
 
Originally posted by Parasite
Cloth and hair in DOA is also fully animated, not dynamic, nor is it actually "cloth and hair" Just clever texturing and animation.

Cloth, Hair and liquids still take hours to render on the phatest rig.

Do a seach, this has been discussed and people had some interesting things to say about it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but it's still authentic looking. Far better looking than any FPS game i've seen so far.
 
Originally posted by LoneDeranger
Good try, but not as good as this -- http://www.halflife2.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=50560
Click to expand...

Umm... not really. Look at the clothing on Alyx, they are not as detailed as those Doom 3 textures. They are a little blurry and without bumps.

Alyx's skin texture does looks more realistic though compared to the main character in Doom 3.

Also. Alyx is the best looking character in HL2 as far as I can tell the other characters don't look as good as she does.
 
Originally posted by Lifthz
Umm... not really. Look at the clothing on Alyx, they are not as detailed as those Doom 3 textures. They are a little blurry and without bumps.

Alyx's skin texture does looks more realistic though compared to the main character in Doom 3.

Also. Alyx is the best looking character in HL2 as far as I can tell the other characters don't look as good as she does.
Click to expand...

Well the "Doom Guy" (or whatever his name is), is the best looking character in D3. So it's fair to compare the two. Unless you want me to bring up the imp again. :dork:

Before I go to sleep, let me mention one last thing. Alyx has a locket on her neck. That locket has 3 custom textures for all sides. On the front is a snake under a shining sun. And that friggin thing is less then 1/2 " in size.

I have not seen anything remotely close to that kind of detail in Doom 3.

EDIT: And what happened with Stalker BTW? Did you decide to switch after you saw their models in the new vid? Not too impressive IMO.
 
Lifthz, trying to get a fanboy to see beyond his obsession is like trying to get a religious man to believe in evolution, I suggest giving up. ;)
 
You asked for the Doom Guy? Check the attatchment, from the D3 Alpha, medium quality textures.

The only thing that is missing from Alyx is any type of bump mapping. It doesn't look like HL2 character textures use bump-mapping, much less normal maps...I could be wrong...
 
I recently had the chance to see a demo of Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines, which uses the source engine. The guy who was playing put on a pimp coat and ran around, the coat moved realisticly and was believeable. The technology is there.
 
Originally posted by BlumenKohl
You asked for the Doom Guy? Check the attatchment, from the D3 Alpha, medium quality textures.

The only thing that is missing from Alyx is any type of bump mapping. It doesn't look like HL2 character textures use bump-mapping, much less normal maps...I could be wrong...
Click to expand...

And yet Alyx and many other HL2 characters look more realistic than any doom character I have seen. By the way, I think there is bump mapping on Alyx's neck, and clothing.
 
Originally posted by LoneDeranger
Well the "Doom Guy" (or whatever his name is), is the best looking character in D3. So it's fair to compare the two. Unless you want me to bring up the imp again. :dork:

Before I go to sleep, let me mention one last thing. Alyx has a locket on her neck. That locket has 3 custom textures for all sides. On the front is a snake under a shining sun. And that friggin thing is less then 1/2 " in size.

I have not seen anything remotely close to that kind of detail in Doom 3.

EDIT: And what happened with Stalker BTW? Did you decide to switch after you saw their models in the new vid? Not too impressive IMO.
Click to expand...

Umm... S.T.A.L.K.E.R is far more impressive than all of these games in general when you look at the DX9 render... Lol. Not specifically character models... but overally it is.
 
Here's my take on the HL2 characters and Doom 3 characters...

When you look at the Doom Guy I put up, he has more "depth" to him.

However Alyx has more detail, and isn't just one color, a lot of tone variation.

If she only had some dynamic shadows coming out of her world, and her face had a tad bit of bump mapping, she'd win easily. She still wins as is now, but the Doom Guy isn't that far behind.

Maybe it's just the lighting, I'm sure she'd look better in other shots.
 
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