Religion (In General)

[SidewinderX]

Discussion with some people in my classes made me curious as to ya'll thoughts on this...

For those of you who are religious (in any way shape or form), do you feel that religion is an end-all be-all answer to everything, or just a guideline of how one should morally live thier life?

I personally belive the latter, and I wish more people would belive it, as it allows science and religion to peacefully coexist, for the most part.


And for the sake of the disscussion, no, atheism is NOT a religion.

 

[Steve]

I believe that the Bible, whether you're religious or not, holds a great set of moral values to live by. With a few notable exceptions, of course.

 

[Absinthe]

Well, I'm not religious. But I wish more people viewed it as the former. Aside from some notable exceptions, I think that the moral values it holds are good.

The latter is something so rife with ignorance and illogicality that it's laughable. "God works in mysterious ways" is a cop-out, not an explanation.

 

[WySiWyG]

Moral Values like what? No sex before marriage? No gays? Come on, examples please..

 

[Steve]

Moral Values like what? No sex before marriage? No gays? Come on, examples please..

That...more or less self-depravation of pleasure...obedience without question.

 

[Pericolos0]

how about abit of both.

 

[pomegranate]

wtf is "null vote" ? I think there's a few more opinions people would want to express...

 

[WySiWyG]

So what are these moral values we should live by? 9 people voted for that so far and no examples.

Surely moral standards are defined by the society we live in and the people around us. After all everyone has different moral standards so why should we live by morals dictated to us, written donkey's years ago?

 

[DreamThrall]

I voted null, because while I lean towards the first option, I think religion should be more of a guideline than something to "live by". After all, the bible WAS written by man, and only after how many years of being passed on by word of mouth? Come on, we've ALL played "telephone" before. I think the 10 commandments are the guidelines for being a basically good person though... but *most* people abide by those guidelines regardless of their religious affiliation.

 

[Steve]

So what are these moral values we should live by? 9 people voted for that so far and no examples.

Surely moral standards are defined by the society we live in and the people around us. After all everyone has different moral standards so why should we live by morals dictated to us, written donkey's years ago?

Okay, first of all you're saying that we haven't provided examples of these moral values, then you're saying that the moral values we believe to be good are too old to be applicable to modern society? Surely you see the contradiction in this.

A few of the common values taught by the Bible that I think most of us can agree upon are respect for others (to a certain extent, admittedly), patience, monogamy, and humility.

 

[Absinthe]

Moral Values like what? No sex before marriage? No gays? Come on, examples please..

Some of the basic fundamental beliefs, like don't kill, don't steal, help your fellow man, have some restraint, etc...

As I said, there are exceptions, like the ones you pointed out.

 

[pomegranate]

Well maybe the bible does show some guidelines for moral behaviour. But if that's all it's good for, it sure could be a bit more concise....

 

[burner69]

I voted null, because I'm agnostic and presume that that dosen't count.

But that said I'm agnostic, but carry around a code of moral and common sense rules for myself. You don't NEED religion to have them, though perhaps it can help, I dunno.

Why listen to a religion that has great morals, then some really f**king dumb ones like "gays are bad" "The male is the head of the house" etc, when you can just make your own up to suit.

 

[RZAL]

Well maybe the bible does show some guidelines for moral behaviour. But if that's all it's good for, it sure could be a bit more concise....

More concise on what?

 

[RZAL]

Why listen to a religion that has great morals, then some really f**king dumb ones like "gays are bad" "The male is the head of the house" etc, .

Could you please point out where God or Christ said “the male is the head of the house”?

when you can just make your own up to suit.

I think this one happens all the time.

 

[burner69]

Could you please point out where God or Christ said “the male is the head of the house”?
I think this one happens all the time.

I probably can't, but I've heard quotes from the Bible that essentially say that, and seen a program on hardcore Christian families where the male is very much the dominant guy in the house because of his religious beliefs - not like he beats people up or rules with an iron fist though.

Yeah I think it probably does, I just figured a while ago seeing as I don't believe in God (but could never say he dosen't exist for sure - in the same way I could never prove that the universe is infact a giant flying sausage powered by cheese) I might as well stop taking the p*ss and saying I'm Christian - so I just stick to my own little set of morals now.

 

[CptStern]

Could you please point out where God or Christ said “the male is the head of the house”?
.

"Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, even as Christ is head of the church; and he is the savior of the body."

Ephesians 5:22, 28-31

 

[RZAL]

Could you please point out where God or Christ said “the male is the
head of the house”?

"Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, even as Christ is head of the church; and he is the savior of the body."
Ephesians 5:22, 28-31

Good try but no dice. The Apostle Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians. Let me ask the question again, Could someone please point out where God or Christ said “the male is the head of the house”?

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. Ephesians 5:22, 28-31

Union with Christ
Paul had just encouraged the Ephesians to walk worthy of their calling (4:1) endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (4:3). He was referring to Christ and the Church as he did later (5:32) when he used the illustration of a husband and wife (5:22-33). Just as husband and wife become one flesh (5:28-31), so those in the Church are members of Christ’s body (5:30), where Christ is the head (5:23). The Apostle John, who was probably working in the Ephesus area as Paul wrote this Epistle, taught the same "Union with Christ" using the analogy of a vine and its branches (John 15:1-8). The branches may carry all the fruit, but the vine and the root provide support and nourishment; and the vine is all one plant. In terms of union with Christ, there is one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one Faith, one baptism and one God and Father of all (4:4-6). For more discussion on this, see the 25th Sunday after Pentecost.

 

[Steve]

Good try but no dice. The Apostle Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians. Let me ask the question again, Could someone please point out where God or Christ said “the male is the head of the house”?

Well, according to many, all the writings in the Bible were divinely inspired. So...

 

[CptStern]

I dont understand ...if you look at the bible there's not a single word directly from christ OR god (man wrote it) ...so how can you possibly find any quotes that are not second hand?

according to your logic I can pretty much cast out everything out of the bible because "neither god nor christ said it"


but by your second quote I think you seem to be saying that the bible can be mis-interpreted ...well that's no big surprise!

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13

 

[Wraith]

what about "tool used by government to further control the masses"

thats what i'd vote for

 

[Sainku]

I like living in a society were people are religious, even though I myself am not. Some people just need a god. So I am going to vote for the first option.

 

[The Monkey]

I am not religious at all. But I'm still open, and I'm not an atheist. I got nothing against people who belive in God/Allah/Jehova, Buddha, Brama etc, but people who thinks they know that their religion is the only right one and is not open to anything else really bug me.

 

[satch919]

I hate religion. Plain and simple.

A lot of people don't live by what they preach. You know the saying, "Practice what you preach."

Religious institutions are powerful and corrupt. They always have and always will be.

Some people say to me, "Without religion, people would steal and commit more crimes. They wouldn't have any morals." I just tell them to look around at society. Everywhere you look you see a glutton, someone being envious, greedy, and angry. You see humans killing other humans in the most vile ways. You see executives ripping off millions of people through corruption and greed. Husbands and wives cheating on eachother. Whats religion doing to stop it? Absolutely nothing.

Whatever happened to just being a good person with good ideas? Im not religious and I treat everyone with respect. I've never done drugs. I don't drink.(not that drinking makes you a bad person but im trying to make a point) I seek to make those around me happy and comfortable. I try to help those that need it. I don't go around trying to convince people that there is no God, mainly because I respect their beliefs.

I don't have to have some book telling me how to live.

Most are good people and they wouldn't want to kill anyone. We all know thats a universal wrong. Then there's some that just aren't balanced. There will always be good people and there will always be bad people. No religion can stop that natural cycle.

I've seen many people that have been affected negatively by religion.

People need to give themselves more credit as well. For example, when a baseball player hits a homerun, he points to the sky thanking God, Allah, Buddha, for that homerun. Lets think about that for a second. Your god is sitting in the heavens watching the Cubs/ Dodgers game and makes Sammy Sosa hit a grand slam? Hmmm. Shouldn't he be tending to other matters? Maybe like hunger, poverty, or death? If thats true, then your god has his priorities mixed up cause I see lots of homeless people walking around town.

Another example. A boy gets in a horrific car crash and everyone else in the crash dies but him. He goes to the hospital and recovers. People would say that its a miracle and that his guardian angel was watching over him. Thats all well and good but again, lets think about it. Everyone else in the crash dies including his little sister. I suppose her and his parents guardian angels were sleeping on the job? And maybe everyone else died because the physics involved didn't put him in as much danger? Sounds plausible right? Or maybe the little boy's body healed better and allowed him to recover. A miracle? No. Its just the way things happen. Its life.

Not only that but I don't like the idea of someone always looking at me while i do my "dirty deeds"

 

[RZAL]

Well, according to many, all the writings in the Bible were divinely inspired. So...

Did I say the writings were not divinely inspired? I think not. Study the bible and get to know the Apostle Paul a little better, you’ll understand what I’m saying. No sarcasm intended.

I dont understand ...if you look at the bible there's not a single word directly from christ OR god (man wrote it) ...so how can you possibly find any quotes that are not second hand?

Don’t read the bible with preconceived notions, study it as you would study any work of literature.

according to your logic I can pretty much cast out everything out of the bible because "neither god nor christ said it"

Wrong, the writers always identifies the speaker and the intended listener, God spoke to….,God Said…., the angel spoke to……,Christ said…so on and so fourth.

but by your second quote I think you seem to be saying that the bible can be mis-interpreted ...well that's no big surprise!

Very true and I can’t stand “legalism” in the Christian belief. I think Christ had a few things to say about that.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13

Now your back in the Old Testament, you know alive to the law dead to Christ and the new testament alive in Christ dead to the law. Well I’m not here to teach Sunday school, like I said forget everything you know or think you know about the bible and then study as a work of literature.

 

[CptStern]

Did I say the writings were not divinely inspired? I think not. Study the bible and get to know the Apostle Paul a little better, you’ll understand what I’m saying. No sarcasm intended.



Don’t read the bible with preconceived notions, study it as you would study any work of literature.

I have

Wrong, the writers always identifies the speaker and the intended listener, God spoke to….,God Said…., the angel spoke to……,Christ said…so on and so fourth.

yes but it's a second hand account is it not? it's not like jesus or god made the entries, someone else wrote them as he interpreted it

 

[Tr0n]

Religion in the right hands can be very spirtual.

Religion in the wrong hands can be very oppressive.

Do not say all religion is just an oppressive tool because of a select few that use it for greed.

 

[RZAL]

I have

Then you understand what I'm saying.

yes but it's a second hand account is it not?

More than just a second hand account, the finished product is more like polished rock.

it's not like jesus or god made the entries, someone else wrote them as he interpreted it

If you studying it as a work of literature then you would not expect it be wrote by God or Jesus.

 

[CptStern]

Then you understand what I'm saying.

yes .....what was the question again?

More than just a second hand account, the finished product is more like polished rock.

I dont see the reference

If you studying it as a work of literature then you would not expect it be wrote by God or Jesus.

....but then that would support my point, wouldnt it?

 

[RZAL]

yes .....what was the question again?

Whos says what in the bible.

I dont see the reference

Its been refined.

....but then that would support my point, wouldnt it?

It depends, just about everyone agrees that the bible was not wrote by the hand of God. My question was “Could someone please point out where God or Christ said “the male is the head of the house”? They are two very different points.

 

[Sainku]

yes .....what was the question again?



I dont see the reference




....but then that would support my point, wouldnt it?

I think what he is asking is for you to find where God/Christ said men are better than weomen or ( something to that effect, likely not so blatant ), instead of one of the writers speaking directly. I thought this was pretty clear myself, though I could be mistaken...just trying to make light out of a confusing argument.

Edit: Also Im going to post a link to the entire chapter, as anyone who isnt familiar with the bible should read the whole thing to get an understanding of what it is talking about. Its really quite lovely lol.

http://www.godrules.net/library/kjv/kjveph5.htm

 

[RZAL]

I think what he is asking is for you to find where God/Christ said men are better than weomen or ( something to that effect, likely not so blatant ), instead of one of the writers speaking directly. I thought this was pretty clear myself, though I could be mistaken...just trying to make light out of a confusing argument.

You got it, although I wouldn’t say there’s an argument yet.

 

[CptStern]

but that's my point ...if god didnt write the bible, which he didnt then it stands to reason that none of the words contained are from god ..they're intrepretations of what god supposedly said to man ..so that question is a loaded one ..there's NO possiblity of finding any quotes that are directly made by god in the bible

 

[Sainku]

if god didnt write the bible, which he didnt then it stands to reason that none of the words contained are from god ..they're intrepretations of what god supposedly said to man .

You have to assume that they aren't intrepretations that they are quoting god directly when they say "god/christ said", therefore if you find a peice of text which states "God said men are the head of the house and wemon should do what men tell them to do " You have found precisely what rzal is asking for.

 

[RZAL]

but that's my point ...if god didnt write the bible, which he didnt then it stands to reason that none of the words contained are from god ..they're intrepretations of what god supposedly said to man ..so that question is a loaded one ..there's NO possiblity of finding any quotes that are directly made by god in the bible

If you read it as a work of literature you can find direct quotes. We can’t argue if God exist or not, because we can neither prove nor disprove his existence.

Genesis 15:1 - After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am

Genesis 15:7 - And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Genesis 17:1 - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Matthew 3:17 - And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 10:34 - Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 11:29 - At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Matthew 22:32 - I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 8:29 - And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

There’s plenty more……

 

[Pesmerga]

Sig. Explains it all.

Whatever you want to do with your life, go ahead. According to -my- belief (which I highly advise you not argue with me), there is no heaven nor hell. There is only your personal goal. I think religion can be a very good thing in dark times, but be careful to only stand in front of your faith; only a fool cowers behind it.

 

[KoreBolteR]

its jus a story made up by some guys couple of thousand years ago, and now it has lots of followers.

its as fake, as pamela andersons tits imo.

 

[Sainku]

its as fake, as pamela andersons tits imo.

I thought they were real, I have nothing left to live for. ;(

 

[CptStern]

If you read it as a work of literature you can find direct quotes. We can’t argue if God exist or not, because we can neither prove nor disprove his existence.

Genesis 15:1 - After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am

Genesis 15:7 - And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Genesis 17:1 - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Matthew 3:17 - And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 10:34 - Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 11:29 - At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Matthew 22:32 - I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 8:29 - And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

There’s plenty more……

yes but who wrote genesis? it had to be written at a later time (pretty obvious I think). The books of the gospel are different accounts of the same events by different people, (more or less) of the life of jesus, yet they differ in many ways ..there are few passages that sound anything alike even when they're talking about the same event ..which logically means that the writer's interpretation/bias/self shows through ..so then in effect what we get is a water downed version of what jesus actually said ..in some cases the gospels were written years after the death of jesus ..memory loss has to account for something

 

[MjM]

I think its a guide for how one should live their life in a meaningful and peaceful way, establishing a framework to allow everyone to get along.

Definately does not provide an explanation for the physical world or its creation and afterlife imo. That would be just too greater leap of faith for me to take. I think mainly those elements are in the bible to put people at ease when they are confronted with death.