Russian Hostage Situation

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seinfeldrules

seinfeldrules

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Aren't there like 300 dead now, if not more?
 
But you've got to ask yourself how many would have been saved if a little more planning went into the rescue operation - why the heck were civilians allowed to get so close to the action and in such large numbers? And how come some of the hostage takers managed to escape?
 
They're missing a few brain cells if they think doing such things can actually promote their cause to anyone.

Anyone with such braincells intact would realise that the powers-at-be can never give-in to terrorisim otherwise everyone with an opinion would want to terrorise something to get their way.

edit: That said though, I think the powers-at-be should take a long hard look at themselves and see just why these people are doing what they do. There is no effect without a cause - and the blame can be put upon those powers.... EG. If you go outside and smash your neighbours house windows every day, could you really complain if the same was done to yours by your neighbour?

These people have a right to stand up against countries that invade/rape/kill them, take their land and impose their government. That right does not include terrorisim in any form - but sometimes there is literally no other way to get the message to the world... granted, anyone with a braincell would rather just shut the hell up instead of strap themselves with C4 and hold a schoolfull of men, women and childeren hostage.
 
some might call them freedom fighters, some might call them rebels, you call them terrorists. that's too much of a vague word, and it doesn't apply here.


but yeah, pretty upsetting situation. ;(
 
Well what can your goal be when you take children as hostages, while also carrying big guns and lots of explosives? Terrorising the populace seems to be one of their goals to me...

I think all things considered, the Russian military handled it well. I don't think anyone expected that fighting to break out, its even been speculated that it was a complete accident.
 
Afaik this wasn't a rescue operation. A few of the children started to escape, and the hostageers started shooting hostages and exploded a bomb or something... so they had to go in to try and save as many as possbile...

or then that is bullcrap.. dunno..
 
Yeah it's petty sick what they've done, :angry: but can someone tell me why all the kids where in there underwear? ;(
 
increases the effectiveness of any bomb blast :|
 
Farrowlesparrow said:
Well what can your goal be when you take children as hostages, while also carrying big guns and lots of explosives? Terrorising the populace seems to be one of their goals to me...

I think all things considered, the Russian military handled it well. I don't think anyone expected that fighting to break out, its even been speculated that it was a complete accident.
Click to expand...

There was a counter-terrorist guy on the news earlier, he said that the usual thing to do would be to clear out the area of non-military personnel so that they could do their job without having to protect the civilians. That's the main thing which surprised me, how many people seemed to be so close to the fighting but not actually having purpose (e.g. firefighters/police).

The 'good guys' (i don't know if it was spetsnaz, so i'll generalise :p) blew a hole in the wall of the gym to get people out - but it's thought that this was a big contributor to the roof collapsing, which i doubt did any good to people underneath it. And it's a bit risky blowing a hole into a room which is reportedly full of explosives itself :/
 
MaxiKana said:
Afaik this wasn't a rescue operation. A few of the children started to escape, and the hostageers started shooting hostages and exploded a bomb or something... so they had to go in to try and save as many as possbile...

or then that is bullcrap.. dunno..
Click to expand...

Yeah from what I've heard/read it was a response operation, but I was referring to the contingency plan as a rescue operation (I'm assuming they had a contingency plan). It just seemed to be a bit of rough plan when it was executed, but then again, I wasn't there so I don't know what it was like!
 
the russians always screw things like this up, just look at the theatre siege, they screwed that up as well.
 
I don't think they screwed this up at all. Bad things happen in these situations, and no amount of planning can prevent it.
 
It wasn't the russians fault they had NO choice but storm the building! :angry:
 
Farrowlesparrow said:
I don't think they screwed this up at all. Bad things happen in these situations, and no amount of planning can prevent it.
Click to expand...

I agree. These sort of situations are incredibly tense on both sides. The slightest misstep from either side can screw up the entire operation.

Anyone remember Waco?
 
Well a terrorist set off a bomb first and others began shooting. That is the 'offical' word, so I dont think it was a planned rescue operation.
 
If that siege had occured in any other country the results would have been either just as bad, or worse... and if you'd have been in charge... well, god help them all if you were.

What the Russians did was the best that could have been done in that situation - wait for them to either get tired and give up, or try and negotiate as many hostages out as possible. Surrendering wasn't an option, neither was storming the building (they knew they would detonate simultaneously killing most if not all the hostages).

The russians prepared, and waited for the first move. Once they heard one explosion, they stormed... knowing that any life they could save would be worth it, as there was absolutely nothing stopping more terrorists pressing the buttons.
 
Seems like there will be a death toll of near enough 200 - I thought that was about how many people were being held hostage in total before the figures of 1000+ in total came out today
 
seinfeldrules said:
Well a terrorist set off a bomb first and others began shooting. That is the 'offical' word, so I dont think it was a planned rescue operation.
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"It apparently started when authorities were fired upon as they tried to retrieve the bodies of people killed Wednesday when the siege began and reached a climax when Russian special forces stormed the building and fought with rebel gunmen room by room."

"The school became a battlefield, with authorities deploying artillery, assault helicopters and tanks and the gunmen firing automatic weapons and grenades. In the chaos, escaping hostages were shot in the back. Booby trap bombs exploded inside the school. And the roof on a gym collapsed in a fiery heap. Fighting continued for about 12 hours as government troops sought to capture the last vestiges of the guerrilla forces, who had taken refuge in nearby houses and the school basement. "


"In that gym, Alan Karayev, a volunteer who entered to help bring out the bodies, saw a gruesome scene. "The whole floor is covered in bodies," he said, estimating there were hundreds of dead children. "There is no ceiling at all. The roof all fell down on the children."

source


what went wrong


i think in the end the number of casualties caused by the terrorists will equal that of the military
 
This has been one news story that I absolutely refuse to watch or read about because I know exactly how it will make me feel. It will make me extremelly mad and feel completely pathetic and helpless.

What those "rebels" did was absolutely disgusting, if you want freedom you do not enrage your slavers. I'm not trying to say that Russia is a slave driver, but its probably the idea that these "rebels" have.
 
I think the news groups are portraying the Russians ina rather bad light to be honest. I mean, they interviewed an SAS man asking him questions about the situation, and what he thought would have been done, why things happened. He felt that the russians did a good job under the circumstances. These news people were asking questions that really weren't relavant. For instance, when the decision to storm the building was made, the news presenter asked something along the lines of "So at that moment when the Russian commander took the choice do you think he was really in control of his men? There must surely have been intense debate as to what must be done going on" The SAS guy said "No, an order was given and it was taken out" So this news guy basically pretends the SAS guy doesn't exist and carries on with the "Oh noes, the Russians are out of control!"
 
you can almost guarentee that with the way the russian's deal with these situations a sizeable percentage of that 200 death toll came from russian gun fire and not from the terrorists.
 
Well I wouldnt say that. The roof collapsing (yes, partly due to the russians) killed a few. The terrorists began shooting hostages, and setting off explosives. There were also quite a few that had been killed already...not sure if they "count" though.
 
mortiz said:
you can almost guarentee that with the way the russian's deal with these situations a sizeable percentage of that 200 death toll came from russian gun fire and not from the terrorists.
Click to expand...
I don't think they rushed in screaming, guns blazing while half drunk and soaked in Vodka. They are trained commandos, they are experts at dealing with hostage situations. It sounds like there were explosions going off everywhere from booby traps and the roof of the gym collapsed. I don't think there were many civilian casulties as a result of gunfire.
 
mortiz said:
you can almost guarentee that with the way the russian's deal with these situations a sizeable percentage of that 200 death toll came from russian gun fire and not from the terrorists.
Click to expand...

I think I'd rather see evidence of that before condemning them on speculation.
 
The Mullinator said:
I don't think they rushed in screaming, guns blazing while half drunk and soaked in Vodka. They are trained commandos, they are experts at dealing with hostage situations. It sounds like there were explosions going off everywhere from booby traps and the roof of the gym collapsed. I don't think there were many civilian casulties as a result of gunfire.
Click to expand...

The Russians always screw up these Chechan hostage situations. Remember when they gassed that theater in an attempt to rescue hostages? The gas ended up killing most of the people inside the theater. Here, the security perimeter totally collapsed once the gunfire started and they had armed civilians and concerned parents rushing into the combat zone.

I wouldn't call them experts in dealing with hostage situations.

EDIT: Terrorists suck balls as well. Just thought I should add that.
 
Regardless of who is to blame or what the results were, I think we can all agree it was a sad day today. Too many innocents lives were lost.

I hate how cruel and stupid people can be at times.
 
DarkStar said:
The Russians always screw up these Chechan hostage situations. Remember when they gassed that theater in an attempt to rescue hostages? The gas ended up killing most of the people inside the theater. Here, the security perimeter totally collapsed once the gunfire started and they had armed civilians and concerned parents rushing into the combat zone.

I wouldn't call them experts in dealing with hostage situations.

EDIT: Terrorists suck balls as well. Just thought I should add that.
Click to expand...
The next time a major hostage crisis occurs in the U.S. or else where in the western world that is of this magnitude we will see. Russia is as far as I know the only real country to have been faced with a crisis of this sort for a very long time.

Of course reports are conflicting but from the mass chaos I would assume that Russian forces, terrorists, and hostages were caught completely off-guard. It seems like something happened that no one expected and of course with so many kids and desperate parents around I don't think the military had any hope of really controlling the situation once it started.

As for the theater scenerio I can't really see much else they could have done, all negotians failed and the only thing left to do was attempt to storm the place. The gas undoubtably saved more people than it killed and you can't really blame them for using the gas. The amount of gas that doctors use for knocking people out is never the same, what may only make one adult male drousey could kill another adult male. I have heard but I don't know for certain that people with red hair on average have to be given twice the amount of gas as the rest of the population.
 
So other than the theatre what have they done wrong? Please everyone keeps pointing out the theatre and then saying "They always mess up etc etc"
 
Neutrino said:
I think I'd rather see evidence of that before condemning them on speculation.
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I too am skeptical but I've been doing some research and it seems it's happened on more than one occasion.


"The attack (refering to theatre hostage incident) resembles an operation carried out in June 1995 when Chechen rebels took several hundred people hostage in a hospital at Budyennovsk, in southern Russia.

That ended in tragedy with more than 100 civilians dying when Russian troops stormed the hospital."

source

in fact I couldnt find any successful hostage takedowns when the chechen rebels were involved.


here's a long detailed article on the history of the chechen occupation


btw IMHO there was no way this could have had a happy endung no matter who was in charge
 
Interesting...I think...It is part of the Russian way of thinking to be heavy handed with these things. That is how Russia has worked for centuries, and although that perhaps isn't justification, it is a valid reason for their actions. They cannot be compared to other peoples, especially considering the situation they are in. Other developed nations get few if any situations like this and they are rarely as large scale.
 
sink the middle east and chechnya into the middle of the earth's core, prblem solvedz0red
 
It all depends on what you consider to be 'successful'. I'm in agreement with Farrow, in that 30-odd hyped-up gunmen holding hundreds of people hostage, in a building booby-trapped with explosives, and a certainty of death (in battle or state sponsored) hardly makes for a peaceful outcome.

We're lucky in that this kind of thing rarely happens in the west, so to say that the Russian military didn't do a good job is somewhat ignorant. The only incident I can remember in this country is when the SAS stormed the Iranian embassy, and even then, hostages were killed.
 
CyberSh33p said:
sink the middle east and chechnya into the middle of the earth's core, prblem solvedz0red
Click to expand...

Chechnya was annexed by Tsarist Russia. They have every right to demand self-rule, in the same way as Ukraine and Georgia (although not by recent events).

Stalin tried to do what you mention, once he was dead they all moved back.
 
It's hard to believe that, aving so much Hostage situation, there Counter-Terrorism forces suck ball, Spetnaz suck big time.

If this would have happen in France or UK, it would have gone much more secure, GIGN and SAS are feared in the world take my word for that.
France had a couple of situations like that, they really reacted well, hell, they even managed to capture some t's.

I think that a 12 year old in CS can do better than Russian Special Forces.
 
Adrien C said:
It's hard to believe that, aving so much Hostage situation, there Counter-Terrorism forces suck ball, Spetnaz suck big time.

If this would have happen in France or UK, it would have gone much more secure, GIGN and SAS are feared in the world take my word for that.
France had a couple of situations like that, they really reacted well, hell, they even managed to capture some t's.

I think that a 12 year old in CS can do better than Russian Special Forces.
Click to expand...
How do you know?
 
Farrowlesparrow said:
Interesting...I think...It is part of the Russian way of thinking to be heavy handed with these things. That is how Russia has worked for centuries, and although that perhaps isn't justification, it is a valid reason for their actions. They cannot be compared to other peoples, especially considering the situation they are in. Other developed nations get few if any situations like this and they are rarely as large scale.
Click to expand...

I will agree with you that it is the Russian way to handle things of this nature. Their history pretty much explains it all.

I find Russian history quite fascinating.
 
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