Santorum says Obama is a snob for wanting everyone to go to college

[Krynn72]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...go-to-college/2012/02/25/gIQATJffaR_blog.html

“Not all folks are gifted in the same way,” Santorum told a crowd of more than 1,000 activists at the Americans for Prosperity forum in Troy, Mich. “Some people have incredible gifts with their hands. Some people have incredible gifts and ... want to work out there making things. President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college. What a snob.”

As the crowd applauded, Santorum continued.

“There are good decent men and women who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate them,” he said. “Oh, I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image. I want to create jobs so people can remake their children into their image, not his.”

The fact that people applaud this kind of stuff brings me to the verge of nausea. I havent been able to watch any of the debates for more than like 20 minutes because, while I can believe a few cooks might say shit like this, I can't believe how many people agree with it. I seriously don't know how I'm going to live another several decades on a planet with such stupid, stupid people. There'll come a day where I wont be able to stand it anymore.

The only redeeming part of that crowd was the two dudes who looked unamused, and the one dude with that sweet mustache.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

It's fairly obvious the tactic being used. Throw out a bunch of random statements and hope that some of the undecided voters and other various idiots will agree with any one of them and support them instead.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I don't think this is a completely unreasonable thing to say - yeah, university isn't for everyone, and in my opinion should be - but I may be coming at this from a specifically UK perspective. Here, New Labour's policy to get 50% of the country going to university has led to a lot of disillusioned kids spending three years and £18,000 partying, bullshitting, learning nothing, and getting a qualification they don't care about. The value of a university education has depreciated and there has been a corresponding neglect of professional and vocational training. For people that aren't actually academically-orientated, university can seem like kind of a con trick. I believe that university is not for everyone, but that the people it's for are spread across all social and ethnic demographics. Meaning, the focus needs to be on allowing those who could excel a path into the academy from any background whatsoever - not just stuffing more and more kids in there.

Of course, it's difficult, because as both our countries abandon the manufacturing sector, jobs for which university can be an actual preparation take up a much wider part in the market. But then I think many people graduate from university into jobs that make their study years look like a waste of time and money (of course, a better solution for this would be if there were more jobs...).

Perhaps in some kind of ideal society, everyone would spend three years at university becoming a better human being (I do believe that education can have that effect). But in ours, would that be of benefit to everyone?

All that said, I have no idea what problems in the US educational system - if any - might give this context beyond Santorum just being an anti-intellectual ponce.

 

[<RJMC>]

so going to college is a anti religious thing now?

 

[Robbo]

Perhaps in some kind of ideal society, everyone would spend three years at university becoming a better human being (I do believe that education can have that effect). But in ours, would that be of benefit to everyone?

I would argue that even the most uninterested person still takes a lot away from being exposed to a university environment. Even a basic arts degree will teach that person to look at evidence and form an opinion from that, that will have a flow on effect in terms of voters actually knowing what the hell is going on. At the very least it allows more people the choice to go onto more skill intensive work, the real problem is the idea that if you go to uni for 3 years then end up in a manufacturing job that those 3 years were a waste of time.

 

[Emporius]

I don't think this is a completely unreasonable thing to say - yeah, university isn't for everyone

Absolutely, many people lead very happy lives with fantastic jobs and have never set foot in a university or college. However, from what I can see it looks like Obama wants a system to be in place so that if people WANT to they can, regardless of their socio-economic standpoint. Santorum is just crowing for people to abandon furthering their education because otherwise they'll fall into the gayliberalcommiemafia trap.

 

[mechanicallizard]

< le snip >

Im pretty much with you on this. But hey I left school at 16 so take your 'varsity' and shove it ya snobs.

 

[Mr Stabby]

I severly doubt if Obama actually said anything along the lines of 'people who don't go to university are less useful'. Santorum is just a dog turd.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Wow, what a snob, presuming to tell people what they can only decide for themselves, making demands out of things that should be deeply personal issues and depend entirely on their circumstances instead of being dictated by broad, sweeping, authoritarian stances.

On an unrelated note, don't **** people with the same trouser parts as you and don't use contraception. Also rape babies are a gift from God so suck it up.

SANTORUM 2012.

 

[Maestro]

Santorum likes to use straw men in order to sound like he's advocate of the people. He intentionally misrepresents the opposition so he has an easy target to attack. He's a liar and a cheat, but no on can see it. I thought Perry was bad, but this guy is somehow worse.

I think the problem with trying to send so many people to college is that many of them get something in English or arts because there's not a hard line of "you know it or you don't." If you have a BA in English, the likelihood of making a decent living is low, but any real success is unbelievably massive. Starving artist vs. bestselling author. With technical fields, even people of mediocre skill still have a high chance of making mediocre wages. You don't have to be a good accountant or engineer to find a place to work. The problem comes from the fact that only a certain number of people have the aptitude for arts or technical thinking fields, and high schools are so completely geared to 'college or bust' that people don't realize that a good welder or machinist can make a lot of money despite having only a two-year education at a community college.

Unskilled labor is dead in the west, but the Chinese still can't do skilled manufacturing worth a damn and won't for the foreseeable future. Milwaukee where I live right now is experiencing a huge shortage of skilled laborers like welders, but no one realizes it and the unemployment continues to be massive here.

 

[Mr Stabby]

You don't have to be a good accountant or engineer to find a place to work.

Uninformed drivel.

 

[Asknoone]

Sulkdodd's post is pretty spot on.

 

[Maestro]

Uninformed drivel.

Sorry. You don't have to be a great accountant or engineer. You must be competent, but unlike a profession such as writing, there is much greater demand and accordingly less luck involved with successful employment. There is only so much market for any given intellectual discipline, and if there were a lot more engineers or a lot fewer companies hiring them then I think it would be equally as fruitless to get a BS in engineering.

 

[The Monkey]

Sorry. You don't have to be a great accountant or engineer. You must be competent, but unlike a profession such as writing, there is much greater demand and accordingly less luck involved with successful employment. There is only so much market for any given intellectual discipline, and if there were a lot more engineers or a lot fewer companies hiring them then I think it would be equally as fruitless to get a BS in engineering.

With "artists", if you seek financial success, artistic talent is more or less useless. Just look at the Twilight author or any number of Idol-esque musicians. That's not to say that these people are idiots, on the contrary, they must possess fast knowledges about marketability and consumer behaviour. But developing your artistic abilities is not the way to go in today's society if you want to make money in arts.

 

[Shem]

But developing your artistic abilities is not the way to go in today's society if you want to make money in arts.

Huh?

Anyways, there's a difference between saying "not everyone should go to college" and "college is not for everyone." Hopefully Santorum was trying to express the latter, which actually implies a choice in the matter. If so, he's right. No one, not even Obama, should be telling people to lengthen their education. It is an option for those who want to pursue their interests to the fullest and most likely end up getting a better-paying job than those who choose not to. I wouldn't have called the guy a snob, of course, but there's definitely something suspicious with the president's viewpoint. There's also a bunch of people in the YouTube comments that have unknowingly emphasized the opinion I have of the intelligence of the Internet: it's a mostly unflattering one, should you be curious.

 

[Krynn72]

Huh?

Anyways, there's a difference between saying "not everyone should go to college" and "college is not for everyone." Hopefully Santorum was trying to express the latter, which actually implies a choice in the matter. If so, he's right. No one, not even Obama, should be telling people to lengthen their education. It is an option for those who want to pursue their interests to the fullest and most likely end up getting a better-paying job than those who choose not to. I wouldn't have called the guy a snob, of course, but there's definitely something suspicious with the president's viewpoint. There's also a bunch of people in the YouTube comments that have unknowingly emphasized the opinion I have of the intelligence of the Internet: it's a mostly unflattering one, should you be curious.

As Maestro said, this was a misrepresentation of what Obama said. Obama said he wanted everyone to have the opportunity to go to college. Santorum misquoted intentionally so he could attack Obama for it and make himself look better. Only he's a retard and it takes one iota of intelligence to see through him. Unfortunately it appears many, many people lack that single iota.

 

[Shem]

Oh, I thought Obama had actually wanted everyone to go to college. If he only wants everyone to have the opportunity to go to college, I see no wrong in that. Straw men, ironically, can be very powerful. Santorum better get his facts straight.

 

[Maestro]

With "artists", if you seek financial success, artistic talent is more or less useless. Just look at the Twilight author or any number of Idol-esque musicians. That's not to say that these people are idiots, on the contrary, they must possess fast knowledges about marketability and consumer behaviour. But developing your artistic abilities is not the way to go in today's society if you want to make money in arts.

That's what I mean, there is a small market dominated by outliers who do mind-blowingly well, but the vast majority struggle in obscurity. It's not about skill, it's about making a lucky break. That's why even though I am a good writer I chose to do engineering, it's incredibly unlikely I'd be Stephen King or George RR Martin.

 

[dfc05]

I don't care so much about the whole "should vs. could" argument, when he said something else that's blatantly screwed up:
“There are good decent men and women who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate them,” he said. “Oh, I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image. I want to create jobs so people can remake their children into their image, not his.”

Just a disgusting mix of paranoia, anti-intellectualism, and flat-out stupidity (hey guess what, Republicans go to college too). Also, it would suggest that Santorum isn't just promoting the choice of not going to college, but would prefer that you not go, because you'll get indoctrinated .


As for the whole engineering thing, I had a few ultra-slacker buddies in chemical engineering who got by with C's, and are now making $60K, probably more. So I concur, if you have some baseline level of math/science skill, that's a good way to go.

 

[Maestro]

C's in engineering classes are not uncommon, that's for sure.

 

[Absinthe]

I hear Santorum say stupid crap like this all the time and I wonder to myself if he's seriously even trying to win the nomination. Surely you have to try to be a little less repugnant to be a viable presidential candidate, yes?

Then I realize "Oh wait, this ****er is the second most popular candidate in the primaries. He actually resonates with a good chunk of voters". Cue despair.

 

[repiV]

The really important skills for success in work and in life can't be learned in a classroom or a lecture hall, assuming of course that one is literate and numerate and so forth. Which makes the modern-day obsession with widespread higher education all the more baffling. I don't see why more than about 10% of people need to go to university.

Hell, even most engineers in the UK don't have a degree and don't need one. Not that such a qualification wouldn't be beneficial in that particular field, of course.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Hell, even most engineers in the UK don't have a degree and don't need one.

you sure about that...

 

[repiV]

I recruit engineers. So yes.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Opposing it because of Santorum's reasons are idiocy.

Be against it for the right reasons if you really are against it. The federal government is not authorized by the constitution to provide free money to people for college. Don't like that? Utilize your state government or work to change the constitution to allow it. Don't just pass it despite what the Constitution says and therefor trample and tarnish all the other important things it contains, like the bill of rights. If one part is ignored, all parts will be ignored.

I recruit engineers. So yes.

What kind of engineers are we talking here? Some engineering trades can indeed be mastered via experience.

The reason you find society having this need for college education in jobs is because the idiotic education system is pumping out high school diplomas like they're candy. A high school education today is a joke, it's probably equal to what a middle school education was back in the day. Today most employers look at an Associates degree like they would a high school diploma back then. Which is sad and wrong, but it's a product of the current social progression education system we have now where they just push kids forward to the next grade despite not mastering the previous grade as they should. Holding kids back a grade can be very good for them and the system as a whole, but they're too worried about little Johnny's emotions and friends..

 

[repiV]

What kind of engineers are we talking here? Some engineering trades can indeed be mastered via experience.

All fields within process control & industrial automation. As well as electrical engineers for power distribution and renewable energy. Almost all DO have qualifications, but usually a one or two year certificate/diploma or something vocational. And unless we're talking serious R&D stuff, a degree is hardly ever called for.

The reason you find society having this need for college education in jobs is because the idiotic education system is pumping out high school diplomas like they're candy. A high school education today is a joke, it's probably equal to what a middle school education was back in the day. Today most employers look at an Associates degree like they would a high school diploma back then. Which is sad and wrong, but it's a product of the current social progression education system we have now where they just push kids forward to the next grade despite not mastering the previous grade as they should. Holding kids back a grade can be very good for them and the system as a whole, but they're too worried about little Johnny's emotions and friends..

Well, we have the situation here where everyone and his dog having a degree has done little but raise the barrier for entry and put lots of people in large amounts of debt for no good reason (as well as spending my taxes on other people's education...). All it means is people are 21 or 22 before they start doing anything productive, rather than 18. Seems to fit nicely with the theme lately whereby people don't really grow up and become proper adults until they're in their thirties, or even forties.

The whole system of employment is a farce anyway. The number of people I get hired who they didn't even want to interview in the first place you wouldn't believe. Hirers make snap judgments on completely irrelevant things because the vast majority of them have absolutely no idea what they're looking for or how to evaluate it properly. Hence why you see jobs advertised with the requirement for a degree when that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the function of the job. Or why the charismatic guy frequently gets hired for the job which requires not one jot of charisma.

 

[Maestro]

All fields within process control & industrial automation. As well as electrical engineers for power distribution and renewable energy. Almost all DO have qualifications, but usually a one or two year certificate/diploma or something vocational. And unless we're talking serious R&D stuff, a degree is hardly ever called for.

That's a good point. Unless you are involved with actual design of new products (like automotive components or a cell phone's internal workings) then a 4-year degree is unnecessary. I am getting a 4-year degree because I want to do prosthetic limb design and development.

 

[dfc05]

Hmm, sadly I have to concur. In my last classes, things like pump sizing came down to looking at a chart, and I'm pretty sure nobody who does process control actually ends up going into freakin Laplacian s-space. My sister is an electrical engineer but works for a major chemical company, apparently advising the plant operators even though she has zero qualification to do so. Basically they'll call her up and be like "the pH is too low what do we do" and then she gets out this binder and it tells her what to tell them to do. Once I had this interview where I was asked to solve a problem, which ended up being basic A<-->B chemical equilibrium -- not even Chem 101 but high school chemistry. So I write out all the steps and explain them in 30 seconds (thinking they're looking more for explaining skills than the answer, since it's really a 2-second problem!!!!) and look at the recruiter for approval, and she's like "Oh ok cool I'm not an engineer and I don't know how to do this, but it seems like a lot of the other candidates got the same answer too." ........:| So disillusioned.

Still, I think in the US you're more likely to get that job if you have a 4-year degree, because you'll be up against so many people that have them. And given the salary, unless you made the horrible mistake of going to a private university (huge waste of money -- the only "benefit" is small class size for those that need to be coddled), you could pay off your loans pretty fast.

 

[Mr Stabby]

In the engineering company, I work for all engineers have either engineering or applicable science degrees, anyone without is a technician.

 

[MuToiD_MaN]

Eww, someone needs to wipe their santorum off the podium.

 

[repiV]

That's a good point. Unless you are involved with actual design of new products (like automotive components or a cell phone's internal workings) then a 4-year degree is unnecessary. I am getting a 4-year degree because I want to do prosthetic limb design and development.

That's pretty cool. I suspect some of that stuff will be pretty incredible over the next few decades.

I got accepted at a few places to do a degree in Aerospace Engineering (with an obligatory additional foundation year in maths and physics), but I decided against it in the end because my brain just doesn't work that way. I've always built and maintained my own PCs, networks etc since I was little, but programming goes completely over my head. I'm not great at maths either, and learning foreign languages has always eluded me, which is a similar sort of strictly logical learning (to a point).

Made the right call I think, practical things come much more naturally to me and I've been generally very happy working in sales. Although having a widely variable income and having to put in a huge day's work full of enthusiasm every single day regardless of whether you're in the mood for it can be a bit of a bitch at times. No doubt very few people with those sorts of qualifications actually get to do anything cool like work on fighter jets or the space program anyway. Engineering is, generally speaking, really poorly paid in the UK as well, as compared to other professions requiring a similar level of study and ability.

Hmm, sadly I have to concur. In my last classes, things like pump sizing came down to looking at a chart, and I'm pretty sure nobody who does process control actually ends up going into freakin Laplacian s-space. My sister is an electrical engineer but works for a major chemical company, apparently advising the plant operators even though she has zero qualification to do so. Basically they'll call her up and be like "the pH is too low what do we do" and then she gets out this binder and it tells her what to tell them to do. Once I had this interview where I was asked to solve a problem, which ended up being basic A<-->B chemical equilibrium -- not even Chem 101 but high school chemistry. So I write out all the steps and explain them in 30 seconds (thinking they're looking more for explaining skills than the answer, since it's really a 2-second problem!!!!) and look at the recruiter for approval, and she's like "Oh ok cool I'm not an engineer and I don't know how to do this, but it seems like a lot of the other candidates got the same answer too." ........:| So disillusioned.

Still, I think in the US you're more likely to get that job if you have a 4-year degree, because you'll be up against so many people that have them. And given the salary, unless you made the horrible mistake of going to a private university (huge waste of money -- the only "benefit" is small class size for those that need to be coddled), you could pay off your loans pretty fast.

Some of the large multinationals we deal with insist on certain silly criteria regardless of the circumstances, usually some retarded policy set by the HR department which is far removed from the actual day to day realities. Last year we had someone forward for a senior business development role selling control systems to the water industry, who had been doing exactly the same job for the main competitor for 10 years extremely successfully, and they weren't allowed to offer him the job because he didn't have a certificate in electrical/electronic engineering. Stupidity of the highest order. You don't get any of that sort of nonsense with the smaller companies though. I would really hate to work for a corporation.

 

[Dr.Demento]

While I don't agree with saca-scrotum, (I couldn't resist) I will say that adult education has either become a necessity in a job market where there's not many manufacturing jobs not requiring a higher education, or a glorified cartel pushing studying materials and books. Just about every job out there anymore requires even just an associates degree whether it be for logistics or entry level manufacturing jobs that once invested in their employees and enrolled them into apprentice and journeyman programs. What's next, an AA in customer service to be a f**king Wal-Mart greeter? That part about adult education is getting ridiculous.