Scary numbers

[The Monkey]

Posted on another forum...

Half of the surveyed people (50%) believe that Stalin played positive role in the life of our country [Russia]. At the same time, a number of those who consider Stalin's role as absolutely positive increased from 16% to 20%, while the amount of Stalin's moderate supporters fell by the same percentage (from 35% to 30%). A number of people who think that Stalin played negative role practically didn't change (35%-37%).

Opinions differ much according to the age of respondents. Middle-aged people are of rather negative opinion about Stalin's leadership, while the growth of Stalinist attitudes is noticeable not only among elderly respondents, but also among young people, where Stalin's supporters score 46% against 39% anti-Stalinists:

Was Stalin's leadership positive or negative for our country?

Code:
Year | 2003 | 2005
--------------------+------+-----
Definitely positive | 16% | 20%
Mostly positive | 35% | 30%
Mostly negative | 22% | 25%
Definitely negative | 12% | 12%
It's hard to answer | 15% | 13%


Was Stalin's leadership positive or negative for our country?

Code:
Age, years | 18-24 | 25-34 | 35-44 | 45-59 | >60
--------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+----
Definitely positive | 14% | 13% | 13% | 24% | 30%
Mostly positive | 31% | 25% | 28% | 28% | 37%
Mostly negative | 28% | 31% | 26% | 25% | 18%
Definitely negative | 11% | 16% | 18% | 11% | 7%
It's hard to answer | 16% | 15% | 14% | 13% | 8%


Some people think that we need a Stalinist leader. Do you agree with it?

Code:
Age, years | 18-24 | 25-34 | 35-44 | 45-59 | >60
---------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+----
Definitely yes | 11% | 9% | 17% | 20% | 32%
Probably yes | 20% | 20% | 18% | 25% | 28%
Probably no | 35% | 34% | 30% | 25% | 14%
Definitely no | 27% | 31% | 25% | 25% | 18%
Hard to answer | 8% | 5% | 10% | 5% | 8%

Source: WCIOM (All-Russian centre for Studying Popular Attitudes).

BTW; why don't the IMG-tags work?

 

[gh0st]

Stalin turned the Soviet Union from an agriculturally based wasteland into the second most powerful nation in the world. People see beyond genocide when its beneficial to them.

 

[The Monkey]

Yes, but the people did not get it better, did they? All their news came from the soviet propaganda machine, and if that told them that their standard of living had improved 3 times, they believed it.

 

[gh0st]

if that told them that their standard of living had improved 3 times, they believed it.

Some people dont mind that. Any country you live in, doesnt matter if its a communist of capitalist society, the government will feed you lies so it looks better. I'm not defending stalin, or the USSR, but I can still respect them both.

 

[CptStern]

"6" AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

"32" ....YAHHHHHHEARGHHHHHHHH!!!!

"99" ...."OH DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"


ya man, that's some scary numbers!



on the poll ...funny how short people's memories are ...heh I dont you'd be able to find someone who though Stalin in a positive light during his reign of terror

 

[kmack]

Stalin turned the Soviet Union from an agriculturally based wasteland into the second most powerful nation in the world. People see beyond genocide when its beneficial to them.

nope, it was karl marx. and vladimir lenin (who is almost soley responsible for stalins rise to power). once in power it was Lev Kamenev and Gregory Zinoviev. Stalin just followed a blueprint.(collective farming was good, but the rapid industrialization was better)

gotta agree with you that people often look away from his genocides (especailly at the time, lest they be executed on the spot), he was also a crazy paranoid murderer but the real reason i dont think he gets credit is because of the relationship with russia after WWII.

 

[gh0st]

on the poll ...funny how short people's memories are ...heh I dont you'd be able to find someone who though Stalin in a positive light during his reign of terror

Perhaps. McCarthy trials on steroids. That was only "later". Pre-WW2 and for several years after he radically transformed the country. Then he started killing everybody :dozey:

 

[kmack]

Perhaps. McCarthy trials on steroids.

exactly, i think that the cold war has a long lasting impact on what we learn about russia. (on a side note i have heard that mccarthy wasnt so off target recently)

That was only "later". Pre-WW2 and for several years after he radically transformed the country. Then he started killing everybody :dozey:

he started killing everyone with the agricultural "revolution" which was what set in motion all his plans (rapid industrialization being most beneficial) in which as i said 5 million people were deported to siberia (onlt 75% made it there) and thousands more executed. THough on a smaller scale, he was a genocide machine throughout .

 

[The Monkey]

nope, it was karl marx. and vladimir lenin (who is almost soley responsible for stalins rise to power). once in power it was Lev Kamenev and Gregory Zinoviev. Stalin just followed a blueprint.(collective farming was good, but the rapid industrialization was better)

gotta agree with you that people often look away from his genocides (especailly at the time, lest they be executed on the spot), he was also a crazy paranoid murderer but the real reason i dont think he gets credit is because of the relationship with russia after WWII.

Wasn't Lenin against that Stalin would rise to power?

 

[kmack]

Wasn't Lenin against that Stalin would rise to power?

its actually a really intersting story, one that i dont have time to tell

In November, 1917, Vladimir Lenin rewarded Stalin for his support of the October Revolution by appointing him Commissar of Nationalities. Lenin joked to Stalin that: "You know, to pass so quickly from an underground existence to power makes one dizzy."

there is a lot to their relationship, but suffice to say lenin recognized power (keep your friends close, and your enemies closer) read up on it here stalin

 

[No Limit]

Stalin turned the Soviet Union from an agriculturally based wasteland into the second most powerful nation in the world. People see beyond genocide when its beneficial to them.

The problem is you can pretty much make the exact same argument for Hitler.

 

[kmack]

The problem is you can pretty much make the exact same argument for Hitler.

and a lot of other ruthless men throughout history

 

[Absinthe]

Wasn't Lenin against that Stalin would rise to power?

Yeah, he was. On his deathbed, Lenin wrote a letter claiming he didn't want Stalin to come to power. Apparently, he wasn't too fond of his character.

This was presented to all those vying for power, but it was dismissed as the ramblings of a sick and dying man.

 

[shumlya4012]

Stalin turned the Soviet Union from an agriculturally based wasteland into the second most powerful nation in the world. People see beyond genocide when its beneficial to them.

i'm suprized you know this, plus the rate at which he build russian up from the distructive effect of WW2 is amazing, but we shell not forget his crulerty

 

[baxter]

and a lot of other ruthless men throughout history

So true here's a list guess who's top ?
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

 

[shumlya4012]

Yes, but the people did not get it better, did they? All their news came from the soviet propaganda machine, and if that told them that their standard of living had improved 3 times, they believed it.

it did though, i got a lot better then it was before, my granddad told me: lot's of jobs, low prices, low crime, lot's of goods

 

[kmack]

it did though, i got a lot better then it was before, i'm granddad told me: lot's of jobs, low prices, low crime, lot's of goods

my grandad told me a story too, except in his he was forced to march hundreds of miles, his brother and sister died on the walk. i guess it depends on who you ask, but anyone who was killed (13,000,000 +) and their families probably feel a little differently. :|

low crime? the national murder rate was 13,000,000.
perhaps someone else could have solved those problems without brutal tactics.

 

[shumlya4012]

my grandad told me a story too, except in his he was forced to march hundreds of miles, his brother and sister died on the walk. i guess it depends on who you ask, but anyone who was killed (13,000,000 +) and their families probably feel a little differently. :|

low crime? the national murder rate was 13,000,000.
perhaps someone else could have solved those problems without brutal tactics.

i'm not trying to justafy the nurder rate, and im not saying that he was the best man for the job, but he did rebuild the country in a very short time, extrime situations calls for extrime measures

 

[The Monkey]

it did though, i got a lot better then it was before, my granddad told me: lot's of jobs, low prices, low crime, lot's of goods

The world's economy was uprising. The USSR was only following, so uncle Joe had nothing to do with that, I'm afraid.

 

[shumlya4012]

The world's economy was uprising. The USSR was only following, so uncle Joe had nothing to do with that, I'm afraid.

WW2 left whole Europ devistated

hey kmack, i didn't know you were from Russia, where from?

 

[kmack]

WW2 left whole Europ devistated

hey kmack, i didn't know you were from Russia, where from?

im not from russia, my grandfather was (so im only 25% russian) but he is straight from there, i dont actually know where he lived there, just that his brother and sister died on a march

 

[The Monkey]

WW2 left whole Europ devistated

I was talking about the 50s.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I think part of it is because, on the media scale, Hitler always "outdoes him"

Not necessarily in the sickness/amount of people killed, but at least in how well known, etc. Far less people know about Stalin's reign of terror killing 20 million. It's sad. It's a similar situation like Pol Pot. Tons of people don't even know about the Cambodian massacres and such. I bet if they were as scorned as Hitler/Nazis are, the numbers would be different.

 

[kmack]

I think part of it is because, on the media scale, Hitler always "outdoes him"

Not necessarily in the sickness/amount of people killed, but at least in how well known, etc. Far less people know about Stalin's reign of terror killing 20 million. It's sad. It's a similar situation like Pol Pot. Tons of people don't even know about the Cambodian massacres and such. I bet if they were as scorned as Hitler/Nazis are, the numbers would be different.

on the same note, if the world did something to stop it (like it did with hitler) there would be more perspective on it.

 

[Kebean PFC]

on the same note, if the world did something to stop it (like it did with hitler) there would be more perspective on it.

True, but who would step in to remove these dictators? We do it, and you whine at us... why would these places be different? The UN has no power... it has no army, and don't confuse UN and US. The UN could tell us to go and help in Cambodia, and we could just flip em off. The UN couldn't do anything about it, becuase they have no Army.

When i say the UN can't do anything, it is a half truth, becuase they can try to impose trade sanctions. But in the case of Cambodia, it wouldn't really hurt them, they have everything they need, and there is always smuggling and the black market.

Kinda off topic but did you know that in Germany, the Communist Party had 45% of the Vote, and the Nazi party has 3%?

 

[kmack]

True, but who would step in to remove these dictators? We do it, and you whine at us... why would these places be different? The UN has no power... it has no army, and don't confuse UN and US. The UN could tell us to go and help in Cambodia, and we could just flip em off. The UN couldn't do anything about it, becuase they have no Army.

no one, the US would fall to the USSR at the height of Stalin's power (and genocide) we would succumb to their sheer numbers and the weather. and in the nuclear age, it was just MAD (mutual assured destruction) that stopped us from stepping in.

 

[JellyWorld]

my dad says that he has some relatives who swam from China to Hong Kong to escape Mao Zedong lol.

 

[The Monkey]

Kinda off topic but did you know that in Germany, the Communist Party had 45% of the Vote, and the Nazi party has 3%?

False. The nazi party and the communists got high per cent in some districts in eastern Germany, but not in Germany as a whole.

 

[C.R.E.A.M.]

on the same note, if the world did something to stop it (like it did with hitler) there would be more perspective on it.

i don't think a lot of people knew what was going on, it was under the cover of steel curtain

 

[kmack]

i don't think a lot of people knew what was going on, it was under the cover of steel curtain

exactly, and it still lingers.

Kinda off topic but did you know that in Germany, the Communist Party had 45% of the Vote, and the Nazi party has 3%?

that sounds like something you made up :|

 

[C.R.E.A.M.]

I've heard that Stolin and Hitler made an aggrement not to attack each other, but then Hilter did attack without any notice and that's why so many people died in the first month of ww2, because nobody was ready

WW2

Total Deaths : 61 Million
Soviet Union : 25,568,000
China : 11,324,000
Germany : 7,060,000
Poland : 6,850,000
Japan : 1,806,000
Yugoslavia : 1,700,000
Rumania : 985,000
France : 810,000
Hungary : 750,000
Austria : 525,000
Greece : 520,000
Italy : 410,000
Czechoslovakia : 400,000
Great Britain : 388,000
USA : 295,000
look at that more russians died than anybody else, even outnumbered jews

 

[The Monkey]

You've heard? No offence dude, but that's general knowledge. And Operation Barbarossa was not in the "first month of ww2".

 

[Lobotomy Lobster]

@ The original post by The_Monkey

Stalin did indeed build Russia up into a mighty nation. He commenced the "5 Year Plans" which built Russia into a massive industrial power and introduced collectivisation, which changed farming from inefficient methods to modern, mechanised farming on incredibly large plots of land.

However, the human costs of these reforms were very high. Worker's rights in all areas suffered terribly and there was great famine in the countryside as food was requisitioned for foreign trade, rather than being used to feed the farmers.

Kinda off topic but did you know that in Germany, the Communist Party had 45% of the Vote, and the Nazi party has 3%?

This is actually true. Until the Nazis started building up their support during the early 30's, the Communists and Socialists had far more support than the Nazis, and they still did until the Nazis made Communism and Socialism illegal after 1934.

I've heard that Stolin and Hitler made an aggrement not to attack each other, but then Hilter did attack without any notice and that's why so many people died in the first month of ww2, because nobody was ready
Today 06:54 PM

This is true aswell. The Russian people had a very negative view of war following the disasters the Czar had involded them in Stalin hoped that he could come out the better if he had a non-aggression pact with Hitler.

However, the main reason for Russia's heavy casualties in the first years of the conflict on the Eastern Front was due to the fact that during the purges, most of the commisioned officers who had gained experience in Russia's recent conflicts had been either executed or sent to labour camps, so there was very little decent leadership in the Russian Army. Stalin countered this problem, as he did with most, by simply throwing men at into the fray.


That's my version of things anyway