Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

Warped Dan

Warped Dan

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If you're going to walk into a room and shoot people up, it better be in a drug lab, a ruthless dictator's palace, or a pedofiler's convention. It makes me sick that a person would shoot up a school. I wish I had a time machine so I could collect all the assclowns in this world and transport them into a large room so they all could shoot the **** out of each other. I don't believe in hell but if it does exist I hope there's a special place for these animals assholes mother****ers dickheads cocksuckers ****s ****tards.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school/?hpt=hp_t1
 
Here are my 2 cents on the issue. Sorry if I raise the intellectual bar.

I think that gun control is a very important issue that needs to be adressed. It seems like these monstrous tragedies are becoming more and more common. I strongly believe in the right to own guns and regularly enjoy using guns at the shooting range and for hunting, but even I can't just write these terrible events off as "freak events." They may still be statistically less fatal that car crashes, but something has to change to help prevent events like this.

I think the issue crosses a huge spectrum of social issues: Gun laws and regulation of sale (better systems at keeping guns away from unstable individuals), better psychological medical practices to identify who might be a threat and who might not, better security at schools and other places where these events tend to happen, more ways for troubled individuals to seek help, and education about guns that replaces fear and ignorance with responsibility and knowledge.

I have plunged into these debates before, and with the wrong mind-set. But I've learned the hard way that picking a side and going to war over this issue is not the way forward. This issue is nowhere as simple as "guns are the problem" vs "people are the problem"... because this issues involves both.
 
"When you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."
"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both."
- some dudes

I don't believe events like this can ever be completely avoided, and legislating as if that were possible leads only to frustration and anger and zealousness when it fails to solve the problem as expected.

I do believe that gun control could be improved, but it should be done with the utmost of care, considering the reasons for the Fourth Amendment's existence.

That's about as far as I can get in conclusive terms.
 
Without knowing about the specifics of today's event, I think security is the most effective way to deal with these problems. How did he get into the school with a rifle? How did he manage to kill that many people without being stopped? A cop or two at the school, and a metal detector could have stopped him, no? Again I don't know if the school did have those things, but I can't see how this could happen with measures like that.
 
That's kind of a good point, with the number of past school shootings I think implementing armed security is a great idea.
 
All my schools after elementary had armed cops in the building. Doubled as DARE teachers. Isn't this normal? And all highschools have metal detectors don't they? By law?
 
I never saw a metal detector in Canadian school, even in college/uni. We had one DARE teacher (well, VIP up north here) and he was just a regular-duty cop who got busted on corruption and drug charges once I got to high school.

I certainly think that security systems like that have benefits, though.
 
lord_raken said:
Here are my 2 cents on the issue. Sorry if I raise the intellectual bar.

I think that gun control is a very important issue that needs to be adressed. It seems like these monstrous tragedies are becoming more and more common. I strongly believe in the right to own guns and regularly enjoy using guns at the shooting range and for hunting, but even I can't just write these terrible events off as "freak events." They may still be statistically less fatal that car crashes, but something has to change to help prevent events like this.

I think the issue crosses a huge spectrum of social issues: Gun laws and regulation of sale (better systems at keeping guns away from unstable individuals), better psychological medical practices to identify who might be a threat and who might not, better security at schools and other places where these events tend to happen, more ways for troubled individuals to seek help, and education about guns that replaces fear and ignorance with responsibility and knowledge.

I have plunged into these debates before, and with the wrong mind-set. But I've learned the hard way that picking a side and going to war over this issue is not the way forward. This issue is nowhere as simple as "guns are the problem" vs "people are the problem"... because this issues involves both.
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How about correcting the problem at it's source with the horrible mental health care that Americans have?
 
Why do you guys even need easily obtainable guns?

Are there any evidence-based arguments against gun control or is it just about following The Bill of Rights like a religion?

I don't get what evidence there is that supports the idea that pretty much every citizen of the US NEEDS to be pretty easily capable of being armed and dangerous.

If I recall correctly, according to the UNODC annual crime survey, the US has a higher number of firearm homicides per 100,000 people than any European country. Isn't that a clear indication that gun control laws are successful in reducing tragic firearm related murders? Why is there such a strong refusal to adopt stronger control over guns?

These are genuine questions btw. Not just being a bitch.

Here's some key things from the laws where I live, anyway:

UK Gun Licensing and Legislation said:
- With a few specialised exceptions, all firearms in the United Kingdom must be licensed on either a 5-year firearm certificate (FAC) or a shotgun certificate from the police.

- When applying for a firearm certificate, justification must be provided to the police for each firearm, and they are individually listed on the certificate by type, calibre, and serial number. A shotgun certificate similarly lists type, calibre and serial number, but permits ownership of as many shotguns as can be safely accommodated. To gain permission for a new firearm, a "variation" must be sought, for a fee, unless the variation is made at the time of renewal, or unless it constitutes a one-for-one replacement of an existing firearm that will be disposed of. The certificate also sets out, by calibre, the maximum quantities of ammunition someone may buy or possess at any one time, and is used to record ammunition purchases (except where ammunition is bought to use immediately on a range under s11 or s15 of the Firearms Acts).

- To obtain a firearm certificate, the police must be convinced that a person has "good reason" to own each firearm, and that they can be trusted with it "without danger to the public safety or to the peace". Under Home Office guidelines, firearms licences are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting, collecting, or work-related reasons for ownership.

- Since 1968, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a firearm. The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiable good character who have known the applicant for at least two years (and who may themselves be interviewed and/or investigated as part of the certification), approval of the application by the applicant's own family doctor, an inspection of the premises and cabinet where firearms will be kept and a face-to-face interview by a Firearms Enquiry Officer (FEO) also known as a Firearms Liaison Officer (FLO).

- A thorough background check of the applicant is then made by Special Branch on behalf of the firearms licensing department. Only when all these stages have been satisfactorily completed will a license be issued, which must be renewed every 5 years.

- Any person who has been sentenced to three years or more in prison is automatically banned for life from obtaining a firearms licence. Similarly, persons applying for licences with recent, serious mental health issues will also be refused a certificate.

- Any person holding a Firearm or Shotgun Certificate must comply with strict conditions regarding such things as safe storage. These storage arrangements are checked by the police before a licence is first granted, and on every renewal of the licence. A local police force may impose additional conditions on ownership, over and above those set out by law. Failure to comply with any of these conditions can mean forfeiture of the licence and surrender of any firearms to the police, though due to the complicated laws, different forces in the UK interpret the regulations in different ways, and many conditions have been overthrown following legal proceedings against issuing Police forces.

- The penalty for possession of a prohibited firearm without a certificate is a maximum of ten years in prison and an unlimited fine. The penalty for section 5 category's of firearm is subject to a mandatory minimum of five years.

- The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 increased restrictions on the use, ownership, sale and manufacture of both airguns and imitation firearms.
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Gun Control is a joke. That would be equivalent to trying to take away all the cell phones away from bad people. In other countries when mass murder's happen they strap bombs onto their chests, or use a sword. Guns don't kill people, bombs don't kill people, knives don't magically kill people...People kill people.

Secondly our Second Amendment Right is there for a reason. Have people forgotten History Class so soon?? The right to bear arms is there for your safety, so that if our government goes off the deep end we can protect ourselves like we did during the American Revolutionary War.

Thirdly, people unintentionally kill more people by texting/talking on the phone while driving. You are more likely to die in a car crash or by Cancer and heart disease. I don't want to sound insensitive, but hundreds of people have died since the shooting in car crashes that could have been avoided.

The shooter stole the guns, plus he broke into the school through a window (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/1...own-in-connecticut-school-massacre/?sr=fbmain). You could have had three armed guards at all the entrances but this guy had an intent to kill. What we really need is a mental health overhaul in America. The mother owned these weapons for a reason, who knows what else was wrong with this family and I think there could have been more opportunities to stop this guy from going nuts.
 
If he didn't have a gun, would he not have done it? I doubt it. If someone is that intent on killing, they'd find a way to do it.
 
Warped Dan said:
Gun Control is a joke. That would be equivalent to trying to take away all the cell phones away from bad people. In other countries when mass murder's happen they strap bombs onto their chests, or use a sword. Guns don't kill people, bombs don't kill people, knives don't magically kill people...People kill people.
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Not really, it's a lot harder to massacre a school with a cell phone. Plus, yes, people kill people. Especially when you give them guns to make it easier.

Warped Dan said:
Thirdly, people unintentionally kill more people by texting/talking on the phone while driving. You are more likely to die in a car crash or by Cancer and heart disease. I don't want to sound insensitive, but hundreds of people have died since the shooting in car crashes that could have been avoided.
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Not really an argument against Gun Control, though, is it? :p People dying in other ways than by firearms doesn't negate the need to control them.

Warped Dan said:
The shooter stole the guns.
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Which is easier done in the US because they're so widely available, right? That's why we have the secure storage restrictions over here. If you can't store it properly and securely, you aint having it.

morgs said:
If he didn't have a gun, would he not have done it? I doubt it. If someone is that intent on killing, they'd find a way to do it.
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How many people would go and massacre a building if they didn't have such easy access to the tools necessary to make mass murder a total breeze, though? I mean, he would have had a lot more difficulty doing it with a knife. I don't think his kill count would have been as high if he'd have attempted to shank a massacre, instead of shoot one. Wouldn't people like that be less likely to go through with it if it wasn't just a case of acquire gun, open fire?

I don't think Gun Control is a joke at all. I don't think there's any reason that restrictions shouldn't be in place to avoid shit like this happening so often... I can't be the only one that thinks this, surely?
 
You make a good point Stylo, but I think America is already too saturated with guns to solve anything by tacking on laws restricting their ownership.
And you also make it sound like it was so easy for him to get a gun, but it may not have been very easy at all. I mean, stealing a gun is a pretty serious thing.

Which is why I think a more direct and realistic solution is to implement better security in schools. Nobody is going to consider bringing a weapon into a school that is going to sound an alarm when they walk in the door, or risk running into an armed police officer.

But hey, what do I know about the minds of these people. At the very least they'll do less damage.
 
Banning guns is not the answer and neither is more school security. Anybody can get past school security, especially elementary school security. Unless its locked up like Fort Knox then shits going to get through. Security forces can't even stop weapons or bombs getting on airplanes, and everyone suffers for insignificant benefit.

What needs to happen is we need to identify nutjobs like this idiot early enough to get him help. Violence like this is a disease whose symptoms adapt whenever one is treated. People will always find a way to hurt others as long as they're so inclined. You'll sacrifice every freedom, right, and ounce of happiness you have and still they will find a way. We're trying to fix the locations, the tools, and all that shit, but we're ignoring the driving element in the equation... the nutjob committing the acts.

Also, we never had metal detectors in our schools when I grew up, and only had like 3/4 security personal in our Highschool of 5000+ people. Never really had any issues, then a middle school "gang" came up where they thought it would be fun to beat up random people and stab them. Now every school had shitloads of security and metal detectors, and yet the gang only disbanded after everyone kept mocking it for its stupid name (forgot what it was, but it was stupid) and the participants felt stupid. People still getting stabbed/beat on though, so its not like its any safer now than it was before.
 
I have to agree with Krynn on this. There isn't a perfect solution to stopping these sort of things from happening, but in my opinion improving mental heathcare would probably help the most. Don't get me wrong, I think its pretty crazy how easy it is to acquire a gun, but like Vegeta said America is so saturated with guns at this point that I think restricting ownership isn't going to help that much.
 
Vegeta897 said:
You make a good point Stylo, but I think America is already too saturated with guns to solve anything by tacking on laws restricting their ownership.
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That is a fair point.

Krynn72 said:
What needs to happen is we need to identify nutjobs like this idiot early enough to get him help. Violence like this is a disease whose symptoms adapt whenever one is treated. People will always find a way to hurt others as long as they're so inclined. You'll sacrifice every freedom, right, and ounce of happiness you have and still they will find a way. We're trying to fix the locations, the tools, and all that shit, but we're ignoring the driving element in the equation... the nutjob committing the acts.
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As was posted before with the screenwipe video, the media saturation of the perpetrators definitely doesn't help. It's almost glorifying the act. The last thing you wanna do is give nutjobs ideas from other nutjobs. Especially since school shootings seem to be becoming a "done thing" for unstable, pissed off young adults, now.

I mean, of course it's gonna get reported on, but the way they have to give us the entire back story of the killer and have their photos everywhere... Well, Charlie Brooker said it best.
 
Krynn72 said:
Banning guns is not the answer and neither is more school security. Anybody can get past school security, especially elementary school security. Unless its locked up like Fort Knox then shits going to get through. Security forces can't even stop weapons or bombs getting on airplanes, and everyone suffers for insignificant benefit.
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Well now you're comparing organized and trained terrorists to kids who steal their neighbor's gun.

Krynn72 said:
We're trying to fix the locations, the tools, and all that shit, but we're ignoring the driving element in the equation... the nutjob committing the acts.
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I don't think anybody is ignoring this. Obviously the individuals are the source of the problem. But how realistic is it to be able to identify and "treat" these people? You talk of taking away freedoms by making things more secure and safe, how do you propose we find these messed up individuals without infringing people's rights in a major way? Unless you're talking about parents being more responsible and aware of what their children are doing/how they're feeling, in which case that's another very difficult thing to do. Getting all the parents in america to be better parents is a lot more difficult than instituting better security and other more realistic measures. Obviously it's not going to help as much as eliminating the problem at its source, but it's about all we can do.

Krynn72 said:
People still getting stabbed/beat on though, so its not like its any safer now than it was before.
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Stabbing implements are probably a lot easier to get by a metal detector than guns are. We're not talking about stabbings. And like Stylo said, you can't stage a massacre with a knife.

The point is, a well-secured school is going to look a lot less like a good target for someone wanting to go on a shooting spree.
 
Vegeta897 said:
Well now you're comparing organized and trained terrorists to kids who steal their neighbor's gun.
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I'm pretty sure a high school kid can come up with "stuff the device in your pants" like these "trained terrorists" have done.

I don't think anybody is ignoring this. Obviously the individuals are the source of the problem. But how realistic is it to be able to identify and "treat" these people? You talk of taking away freedoms by making things more secure and safe, how do you propose we find these messed up individuals without infringing people's rights in a major way? Unless you're talking about parents being more responsible and aware of what their children are doing/how they're feeling, in which case that's another very difficult thing to do. Getting all the parents in america to be better parents is a lot more difficult than instituting better security and other more realistic measures. Obviously it's not going to help as much as eliminating the problem at its source, but it's about all we can do.
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Well, we actually already are doing it, so it was a bit of a stretch saying we're ignoring that. But better education and more observation of people has already lead to massive decreases in violent acts. Places with higher IQs have less violence, so thats one way.

Stabbing implements are probably a lot easier to get by a metal detector than guns are. We're not talking about stabbings. And like Stylo said, you can't stage a massacre with a knife.
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I thought we were talking about attending students, since better school security isn't going to stop acts like this. Its not like this was some kid that walked in and then whipped out an uzi at recess. It was a totally unrelated dude who busted through the door and started shooting up the place. Do you think he's going to care if an alarm goes off while he's blasting people as he walks through the detector? Armed security guards might stop him, but we've seen plenty of instances of what a bunch of two-bit wannabe cops with guns do.

The point is, a well-secured school is going to look a lot less like a good target for someone wanting to go on a shooting spree.
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Do we have evidence for this? I know its anecdotal, but the schools I went to see more violence now than before they beefed up security.
 
Krynn72 said:
I'm pretty sure a high school kid can come up with "stuff the device in your pants" like these "trained terrorists" have done.
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Oh don't trivialize it. A kid isn't going to try to bomb an airplane. Airport security is serious shit compared to schools.
Krynn72 said:
Well, we actually already are doing it, so it was a bit of a stretch saying we're ignoring that. But better education and more observation of people has already lead to massive decreases in violent acts. Places with higher IQs have less violence, so thats one way.
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Indeed. But we can't do much about those who drop out of school and withdraw from society. Edit: But I guess our job is to prevent people from doing that.

Krynn72 said:
It was a totally unrelated dude who busted through the door and started shooting up the place. Do you think he's going to care if an alarm goes off while he's blasting people as he walks through the detector? Armed security guards might stop him, but we've seen plenty of instances of what a bunch of two-bit wannabe cops with guns do.
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I suppose that's true, but I still think it's a deterrent. If the school is designed well, he won't be able to make it to any classrooms in the time after the alarm is triggered. But I guess it's still not a foolproof measure.
Krynn72 said:
Do we have evidence for this? I know its anecdotal, but the schools I went to see more violence now than before they beefed up security.
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Gun massacre violence or individual stabbings and stuff? Because those are VERY different things, with different motivations and different people. Surely you know this.
 
Vegeta897 said:
Oh don't trivialize it. A kid isn't going to try to bomb an airplane. Airport security is serious shit compared to schools.
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My point was that no amount of added security is going to make a big difference.

Indeed. But we can't do much about those who drop out of school and withdraw from society.
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Better education can though, and in many cases I bet there's plenty of warning signs before they drop out that something's not quite right.

Gun massacre violence or individual stabbings and stuff? Because those are VERY different things, with different motivations and different people. Surely you know this.
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Obviously, but again, I figured we were talking about students since there's really jack shit that can be done in cases like this one where its a total outsider who barges in not giving a ****. The lockdown system is really as good as it gets, and lockdown isn't going to start until the shooting starts because the time between metal detectors going off, security guards realizing its not a fluke and triggering the alarm, and bullets flying... its going to save a couple seconds.

And having armed security guards opens up a whole can of worms.
 
Oh come on, putting armed security in school doesn't mean they automatically have permission to conduct school-wide raids. We never had that in our schools.

Any police forces are capable of abuse. Does that mean we shouldn't have police?
 
I don't think we need police or police-likes in schools. I don't think its worth it.
 
Any building that has a large amount of people in it should, and usually does, have security guards. Shouldn't schools especially have them, since we're talking about defenseless children here?
 
Guards, and armed guards are different things.
 
But what if there was no guns to steal because of much more strict laws? The people who do this aren't from terrorist organizations - they're "normal" young men. And with more strict laws they would have a much harder time getting guns. It won't solve the whole problem but I see it as an essential part of this spectrum we're talking about. It would make a difference along with other solutions.

And why would you need to have guns anyway?
 
Hobbies (hunting, or just shooting), home security (even just peace of mind).
Like Morgs said, I don't think any amount of law strictness is going to help America as far as being able to obtain one.
Laws don't have effect just by being written, either. Imagine how much money and manpower it would require to ensure every gun owner in america was following the law.
 
Massacres happen in every country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Afghanistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_France
the list goes on and on.

We need mental detectors not metal detectors. Not too sure how we'd do this but its going to happen again, its going to be done with guns, with knives, with vehicles, and with bombs. It is unavoidable. But not entirely. If you have an inkling that someone is crazy and know they have access to weapons or know someone who is a loner and a littler weird...maybe you want to learn more about them or try to be nicer to them. Who knows maybe the shooter here was picked on or was a loser compared to everyone else. You want to stop more shootings?? Try not picking on the little guy. Nine times out of ten these people that act out like this are troubled/abused or just outcasts. The shooter was obviously depressed, no one who is happy would ever perform an act this heinous.

Also so far I am glad I haven't heard the video games did this remark.
 
I must've murdered people in their hundreds of thousands in video games, yet I can't bring myself to kill a sandfly. A SANDFLY!
 
It's readily apparent that beyond the more or less absurd pretense of rising up against a tyrannical American government that the numbers clearly demonstrate guns = more violence. The anti-gun control arguments essentially boil down to some very idealistic ideas and insanely rare and specific anecdotal stuff about self defense rather than actual evidence of it decreasing violence. At this point it's just an issue of American culture being irreversibly engrossed in gun culture. Every time something like this happens it's basically a shouting match of 'gun laws will stop this' versus 'good people having more access to guns could stop this' immediately. It's just a problem of perception. What gun control there is takes little work to get through if you want one and so is just an inconvenience to gun enthusiasts while not stopping gun crime. And this just justifies some perspective that guns, or atleast many varieties, shouldn't be available to any or many people. So what we have is a problem that people refuse to see from more than an all or nothing perspective therefore nothing is done about it. I refuse to believe that there isn't a possible system by which well adjusted and responsible could get guns while it would be difficult to impossible for criminals or crazies to.
 
^Yes.

Thankfully nobody here has given the "everyone should be armed and then they can shoot the killer!" argument, but it pops up everywhere else, and I hate reading about how some guy woke up in his bedroom and shot an intruder. If they're just throwing out their stupid tasteless self-defense anecdotes, then they need to acknowledge the other side of this -- my grandfather got robbed in his grocery store by a man with a gun, and he pulled out his gun to challenge the robber, and NO it did not save the day. It got him shot and killed and my grandmother in the hospital with a gunshot wound. Not ranting at anyone here, it's just irksome when a perhaps small but loud segment of the pro-gun contingent talks like arming every man, woman, and child is the solution.

I don't have a super strong opinion on gun control, except that I don't understand how some people are so extremist that we can't even agree to ban assault weapons. Maybe it wouldn't help, but it certainly wouldn't hurt either, and you'd think all the gun enthusiasts would be able to satisfy themselves with the rest of their guns and give up the assault weapons. But no, no they can't.

[edit] Also, the discussion on mental issues reminds me of a story a month or two ago about a mother who actually did turn in her son who was planning to shoot up a Walmart. While this did make some headlines, it certainly didn't get as much attention and nobody even gave any particular praise to the mother. Maybe if we showed that more, it would encourage people to be more proactive.
 
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