shooting through and light

[Quotidian---]

okay, shooting through objects yes.

a pipe that when shot out individually spurted steam.. yes..

does this mean, i could create a vent, and if shot through, the individual bullet holes would poor in light?? ( a scripted event like this happened in hl1 if you remeber)

and if thats the case, could i make a building, where you could put bullet holes in the walls and then peer through the holes to see in to the next room.. and then decide to lay waste to it cuase you see people in that room?

i remeber having a discussion where it was said, bullet holes like this are not possible..

but this e-mail that mchammer75040 sent


"Hey if u can answer these it would be appreciated if not i understand.

1) Is there someway that i can make a pipe that runs along a wall and when
players shot it steam shoots out and injuries players that get hit by it?

2) What are you doing right now?

Thanks in advance and good luck on getting everything ready in 2 weeks! From

everyone at the halflife2.net forum id like to say we love you guys and we
look forawrd to hl2s release!

Gabe:
1)yes
2)replying to email

(ahh damnit i knew i was gonna get that answer)"

is making me think differently...

cuase i am all 100% for realism.. and i'd love to see every wall able to be possibly penetrated, and holes utilized

 

[$niper]

You can already do that in Half-Life 1. Heh.

 

[Axyon]

Design decision, not technical limitation, my friend

 

[Quotidian---]

Originally posted by $niper
You can already do that in Half-Life 1. Heh.

.....

your telling me, hl1 i can shoot through a wall, look through the hole.. and see the other side..


no.


and to the monkey

so all this is possible.. i don't see why it would not be implemented first thing?? or are people going to jump on this like a trampoline in a pysch ward?

 

[$niper]

Originally posted by Quotidian---
.....

your telling me, hl1 i can shoot through a wall, look through the hole.. and see the other side..


no.


and to the monkey

so all this is possible.. i don't see why it would not be implemented first thing?? or are people going to jump on this like a trampoline in a pysch ward?

No, but I'm telling you that you can do this in Half-Life 1:

Originally posted by Quotidian---
Is there someway that i can make a pipe that runs along a wall and when players shot it steam shoots out and injuries players that get hit by it?

:cheers:

 

[Axyon]

Originally posted by Quotidian---


and to the monkey

so all this is possible.. i don't see why it would not be implemented first thing?? or are people going to jump on this like a trampoline in a pysch ward?

Time restrictions, I guess. Valve has repeatedly said that there was so much that they wanted to put in, but just didn't have the time to.

 

[Incitatus]

Having light stream through a bullet hole naturally would require the light to bounce. and even with all of HL2 technical advances I doubt it supports real time GI I'm not even sure the latest hardware would be able to render even simple adaptive GI at acceptable frame rates.

 

[Andy018]

terrain deformation is diffrent from terrain destruction.

Creating a slight hole in an object would drastically change its polygon structure this is an awful lot of pressure to put on a couple of poor old CPU's

its not possible in hl one unless you build the object you want to shoot out, litterally build it out of little polygon blocks. Thats why when you shoot buildings in hl and they crumble they ALWAYS crumble in the same shards.


not many games do allow destruction of objects and objects that are destuctable are spefically made so (hence GeoMod)

you could do it but it wouldnt be physically simulated either i dont think.

e.g. (blow up a building wall the whole inner building collapse due to stress)


it would need to be scripted sorry chief

 

[Paradox]

This is possible but I think would be expensive in terms of system resources, at least if you made a lot of holes.

In the case of the pipe letting out steam you would just create a particle source where the bullet hit.

But to actually make bullet holes in a wall you would have to modify it's geometry on the fly. Possible but expensive, especially if a wall had hundreds of such holes and so an increased poly count.

It might also be possible by applying an alpha channel affect to the texture as a decal (if that can be done), but you wouldn't be able to fire through it.

Just some thoughts.

 

[$niper]

Originally posted by Abom|nation
Time restrictions, I guess. Valve has repeatedly said that there was so much that they wanted to put in, but just didn't have the time to.

Hmm actually Valve said there were only a "few" things they wanted to add in, but they didn't have time. They've stated in the past that Half-Life 2 is really up to par with what they wanted to do. I'm sure it's going to be a very polished and super-detailed/thought-out game.

 

[Andy018]

plus if you destroy a part of a building thats on the edge of the map you effectively break the map which if i remember from my hammer map building days is very very bad

 

[Axyon]

Originally posted by $niper
Hmm actually Valve said there were only a "few" things they wanted to add in, but they didn't have time. They've stated in the past that Half-Life 2 is really up to par with what they wanted to do. I'm sure it's going to be a very polished and super-detailed/thought-out game.

Ah, but if they had an excess of time, I'm sure something along the lines of this would have been brought up. For now it's probably been filed into the "Half-Life 3 tech" cabinet.

 

[Saltpeter]

Originally posted by $niper
Hmm actually Valve said there were only a "few" things they wanted to add in, but they didn't have time. They've stated in the past that Half-Life 2 is really up to par with what they wanted to do. I'm sure it's going to be a very polished and super-detailed/thought-out game.

I'm sure nobody doubts that

 

[$niper]

Originally posted by Abom|nation
Ah, but if they had an excess of time, I'm sure something along the lines of this would have been brought up. For now it's probably been filed into the "Half-Life 3 tech" cabinet.

Half-Life 3 will feature MOSS!

 

[droper]

hehe

 

[Quotidian---]

okay cuase at first you guys were saying sure its even possible in hl1, and now i'm understanding this really isn't a possiblity what so ever, cuase even my comp would not be able to take it..

but, is this going to a be a possiblity in teh future?

or do you guys think hl2 will never see something like this?


and what about making only certian area's able to shoot through..

you said shooting at the edge of the wall or whatever, to 'break' the map would cuase all sorts of problems.. but you could only allow bullet holes to show up in a buffered area of the wall..

but, would it be possible to say in the near future, make a vent that would be able to do something like this?

gabe is using hitscan bullets for hl2 but he said you could fully fabricated each bullet and add the world physics to it etc. they just didn't deam it neccisary for hl2. not sure this changes much, but i really would like to have a vent sometime that could do that..

 

[BBA]

Originally posted by Incitatus
Having light stream through a bullet hole naturally would require the light to bounce. and even with all of HL2 technical advances I doubt it supports real time GI I'm not even sure the latest hardware would be able to render even simple adaptive GI at acceptable frame rates.

That part I think your wrong on. I say this because the demo movie even shows fresnel lens effects on light. I can only assume from that the lighting physics technology is there.

 

[BBA]

Originally posted by Paradox

But to actually make bullet holes in a wall you would have to modify it's geometry on the fly. Possible but expensive, especially if a wall had hundreds of such holes and so an increased poly count.

Does anyone remember Red Faction? You can shoot holes through any wal in that game and light would pierce through...and that game ran fine on a 1GHz system.

I'm not saying the source engine is similar to an older RF engine, but... I'm saying that it might just be possible even though I do not know for sure.

 

[Quotidian---]

see, i'm thinking its very possible..


and i think it would be sweet to be shooting holes through floors/ceilings.. can you image being in a dark second story floor room.. and sometime hearing your footsteps and pounding the floor with shots, and as you avoid the light beams coming up..

i dont' know, i just think it would add a complete new awesomeness to the game..

 

[$niper]

Valve did that in Half-Life Single Player.

 

[Quotidian---]

yes but it was all scripted. and only once. and the thing crashed right after(the vent), so you don't know if you could have looked down through the hole or not

 

[lePobz]

It is possible in HL1 to have a breakable brush (block/part of a wall) that gets destroyed when you shoot it. To get a wall that gets 'bullet holes' that you can see through, would mean you would have to make the entire wall out of tiny bullet-hole sized brushes, set to get destroyed with just one bullet impact. This way, wherever you shot the wall, you'd get a bullet hole you could see through. I did this once with half-life one, getting a very realistic effect. Unfortunately the massive number of brushes caused some severe frame problems, plus when you threw a high-explosive grenade at the wall, you lost most of the wall.

To sum it up, its possible, but you wouldnt want to do it.

 

[Wesisapie]

sniper, when is sven beta 3 coming out?

 

[$niper]

Originally posted by Wesisapie
sniper, when is sven beta 3 coming out?

Soon/WID/WSIAF.



Note: WSIAF = When steam issues are fixed. :dork:

 

[D33]

Sniper rules.

That is all.

;(

 

[nostgard]

That part I think your wrong on. I say this because the demo movie even shows fresnel lens effects on light. I can only assume from that the lighting physics technology is there.

Not, true... fresnel is a simple vertex or pixel shader calculation. This is many magnitudes more complex.

Shooting a piece of a wall is possible, by the method of splitting the wall into many little brushes, as said above. But this could get really gross as the game would have to manage a huge number of entities. Although it would be really cool to see with HL2's physics.

However, lightmaps (assuming they're doing them the same way as everyone has for years) are precalculated and it would be really tough to update them in realtime and do it well... there are some ways you could do it but I think you would end up with some ugliness.

One thing that you could do that isn't nearly as good (but maybe "good enough", as a lot of stuff in games are) is make it so that it LOOKS like light is streaming out ... i.e., when the bullet hits the wall, trace a line from the direction of the light in the other room to the first surface hit in the current room, and create a set of polygons with a shader applied to them that gives it a "dust in the light" volumetric light appearance. You wouldn't be able to see through and it wouldn't effect the lightmap, but with some additive blending it would still look pretty neat to see all these streams of light from bullet holes.

The overdraw could get sick, though.

 

[Quotidian---]

i like that, but .. would the light streams appear in the path of the bullet? and is this assuming we are not using hitscan bullets?

 

[nostgard]

You mean would the light stream cut out when a bullet blocked it? That's a bit more complex, but yeah... you could do it... and yeah, it would have to be something other than hitscan bullets.

 

[Murray_H]

Are transparent decals possible?

So you could shoot a door for example and the bullet "hole" would be transparent but with a bit of blackening around the edge of it. Then you could see through it....

 

[Stiler]

.......red faction had destructiable terrain and it ran fine, didn't take a monster rig.

 

[Incitatus]

Originally posted by BBA
That part I think your wrong on. I say this because the demo movie even shows fresnel lens effects on light. I can only assume from that the lighting physics technology is there.

Fresnel reflection doesn't compare to the calculations needed for GI.

besides what do you mean by 'fresnel lens effects'. Fresnel is a term used for reflections. You can see it on almost any non metallic surfaces. If you look at a smooth plastic sphere you see the reflections will be stronger at the edges than at the center, that's fresnel.

 

[nostgard]

Are transparent decals possible?

So you could shoot a door for example and the bullet "hole" would be transparent but with a bit of blackening around the edge of it. Then you could see through it....

Hmm... you could possibly do this with the technology that they showed in the E3 demo, where they had a camera projecting it's view onto the screens on the wall. Create a camera on the other side of the wall, and render its view into the texture on your side.

Not sure how that would affect performance, though. Probably would kill it for a lot of holes.

 

[Mother]

If you were to implement transparent decals.... how would the depth of an object you shot through work? I'm guessing that you'd be able to see inside the hollow object.

For example:

You have, say, a 3 inch thick wooden door. You shoot a hole in said door. You apply transparent decals at both sides, where the bullet entered and exited.

Wouldn't this give you an effect similar to shooting through a cornflake box? The only way to deal with it would be to create a cylinder object inside the object you've just shot through.

Alternatively, you could remodel the object on the fly to simulate shooting through it. As stated earlier, you'd be replacing polygons on the fly, and a simple wall (2 polgyons) could easily require thousands more polygons for just a few bullet holes in it. Imagine this over a level... you'd be looking at storing each modified wall / object in memory (expensive memory wise), or only the positions of the bullet holes, and only using CPU time to re-render the walls when they come into view (expensive CPU wise).

 

[kinggi]

source engine needed geo mod......

 

[SLH]

I think they left that for HL3.... The way maps are done in HL1 and 2 (bsp) makes geomoding inherently difficult.

 

[Mother]

I wasn't too keen on GeoMod in the end.

It didn't seem to work right. How many huge buildings have you seen being held up by a 10cmx10cm strut? I think valve did right, if you're going to implement soemthing, you need to do it properly, not half arsed like GeoMod.

 

[nostgard]

You have, say, a 3 inch thick wooden door. You shoot a hole in said door. You apply transparent decals at both sides, where the bullet entered and exited.

Hmm, yeah. I didn't think about that. It's really hard to say how you would do it because we don't have a lot of information about how much control Source gives the mod developers over the rendering path. But, as Yahn said:

You also have full control over the rendering loop and could even insert your own rendering primitives ( as long as you ultimately end up rendering triangles... )

If we have that level of control in combination with the ability to write new shaders, I think we'll pretty much be able to do anything we want.

Replacing polygons (depending on how they've done their stuff) probably wouldn't be the most viable solution. The more cost effective one is the previously mentioned cylinder... calculate the depth of penetration once, and just draw the cylinder with the wall's material in front of the rendered camera view.

 

[SLH]

Originally posted by Mother
It didn't seem to work right. How many huge buildings have you seen being held up by a 10cmx10cm strut? I think valve did right, if you're going to implement soemthing, you need to do it properly, not half arsed like GeoMod.

True, but if done correctly, it could be very cool. Not an easy task though....

 

[kalayq]

some ideas

This might get a little cpu heavy, but why not make the bullet hole decal a little viewing screen with the camera where the bullet would have left the wall on the other side of it. It could also be set so that it would only turn on the screen decal camera when the player was close enough to see it clearly, saving cpu power on the rest of the bullet screen decals made. Or there can be a special viewing mode (eg. sniper scope) that would activate the camera on the other side of the wall.

Another much simpler solution is that you can just put a light source decal whenver a wall is shot that would look like it is a hole it it.