"Sidegrades": MYTH OR REALITY

[Jintor]

Bold specific weapons please just so I can keep track of things, I'm lazy like that

Now, people are always talking about whether x weapon is overpowered, of if blah weapon is bullshit, etc. I don't play competitively so I may have a completely different outlook on things, but here's my take on a few things.

Natascha: They've fixed her (mostly?), and I think she's a pretty good side-grade now.

Sandvich: You should really be able to at least move while chewing on it. I don't mind if they slow me down while eating and stop me shooting, but standing absolutely still - even around a corner - is just fustrating.

KGB: Well, I like 'em, I just can't hit with 'em.

FAN: I like the Force-of-nature. I'm absolutely balls with it but that's because I suck at switch timing. The triple-jump it gives me (if I'm not using ye old sandman) is pretty cool at getting me to places I normally would not get, and so on and so forth. I think balance-wise the trade-off between ammo clip size, shots fired, and reload time is great as compared to the scatter-gun. A good sidegrade.

Bonk Energy Drink: Absolutely friggin' useless. Good for fooling around but the 3rd person mode really doesn't work, there's zero point to it thanks to the slowdown, you can't switch weapons or fire after taking it, and you don't even go faster like you think something that is NUCLEAR would make you do. I mean, it makes you hyper, why wouldn't it make the scout go EVEN FASTER? At least while the damage avoidance is in effect. Stick to the pistol.

Sandman: Eh... I don't know. It feels to me like it does less damage swing-wise and doesn't crit as much, or at all, but I can't hit with the ball for shit. Taking away double-jump really hurts though.

Leafblower/Backburner: Some good stuff. Playstyle-changing in the kind of way a good sidegrade should be. I don't really need to expound on this.

Flare Gun: Still divided. Setting people on fire has become a lot less awesome than it used to be, and it wasn't really that awesome before anyway. I personally enjoy using it but it's not all that useful really, especially if there's a medic around. A little more initial damage or a burst effect would be cool?

Axtinguisher: Soooooooo useful. I don't know whether anybody even uses the fire axe anymore. Maybe too awesome comparitively.

Blutsager: Same as above. Nobody's going to use the syringe gun; it's just a bad blutsager. If the Syringe gun did more damage or critted reliably more then maybe it'd be a sidegrade, but the Blutsager is just an upgrade, pure and simple.

Kritzkreig: Sidegrade. Awesome job.

Ubersaw: I'm fairly certain this is just a pure upgrade, but then I don't go around looking for bonesaw people. On the whole though the get 25% ubercharge is incredi-awesome and the ubersaw crits a lot anyway so I think it's just a straight upgrade, if you can hit with the thing.

Huntsman: Another style-changing device, really fun to dick around with, visual effects are hilarious, whether it's more efficient is another question but it certainly made playing the sniper actually fun for me.

Jarate/Razorback/SMG: SMG always fealt useless to me anyway, Jarate sounds incredie-awesome but I haven't got it yet, Razorback seems kind of bugged at the moment and I'm not sure how it works. The electrical charge thing doesn't seem to last as long as I was hoping.

Ambassador: Hopelessly broken at the moment. Avoid, avoid, avoid.

Cloak 'n Dagger: Situationally useful. Sitting around waiting for cloak in the absolute middle of a bunch of enemies without the pressure of knowing that your cloak will run out is really cool though, but sitting around just waiting for cloak knowing you could be out there stabbing people if you could just run past their defences sucks. A good side-grade. I haven't got the Dead Ringer yet.

Opinions?

 

[Eejit]

Bonk can be useful on small teams, lets your team own sentries even without a medic-uber.

With the recent airblast changes the Backburned seems even more like a downgrade to me. Sure it might be nicer for racking up kills on noobs, but in a game with any kind of teamplay you want the airblast and this ain't Deathmatch Fortress 2.

 

[Kula Meenur]

Pretty much how it lays, Jin.

 

[nurizeko]

Flare Gun: Still divided. Setting people on fire has become a lot less awesome than it used to be, and it wasn't really that awesome before anyway. I personally enjoy using it but it's not all that useful really, especially if there's a medic around. A little more initial damage or a burst effect would be cool?

Axtinguisher: Soooooooo useful. I don't know whether anybody even uses the fire axe anymore. Maybe too awesome comparitively.

Lol, okay.

Jarate/Razorback/SMG: SMG always fealt useless to me anyway

Baw!.

 

[Warbie]

Competitively, nearly all the updated weapons are novelty downgrades, and as such aren't used at all. The FAN is a good example. Bang bang - then you're ****ed. Fine when you get the drop on someone on a public, not fine when confronted with an organised team and having to reload early equals death. The Sandvich is another. A heavy without a medic near is beyond useless and as such health isn't an issue. Losing the shotgun is. The same goes for the sniper updates as spies are realy seen in matches. The shield and piss jar are pointless here. The smg, on the other hand, is incredibly useful for finishing off headshotted foes and anyone who gets too close. The bow is far worse at distance (the reason snipers exist) and barely, if any, better at mid (i'd rather have the rifle).

I agree about the Kritzkreig - it's a great addition that gives real tactical options. Opening with crits on the all important center points on granary, badlands etc can be devastating. I wish there were more updates like this.

I don't think Valve are striving for balance with the class updates - they're giving us more toys to keep things interesting for a while and hoping they don't **** things up by making something too good.

 

[Eejit]

We'll see how things stand after the Demo and Soldier updates. Competitively most of the updated classes aren't played much.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

The thing is Warbie, TF2 isn't really aimed at competitive gaming like that. Sure it can support it, but this is area developed as a by-product of major pub success.

For the average 24 / 32 player slot server, these weapons add something a little bit different tactically and added entertainment value. I do grow tired of people sitting on their competitive high horse, complaining about these things. Essentially you are playing a game where the heavie's fists do equal damage to the pyro's axe, yet that isn't disputed.

What I'm saying is the game shouldn't need to keep the realism fully intact. The beauty of the game is that Valve can stretch their imagination far and wide, and add absolutely crazy things which add a different tactic somehow.

I have masses of fun playing TF2, I've clocked up silly hours on it and will continue to do so immersed in the fun of it all. It blows my mind people would rather sit there and complain "ITS UNBALANCED" "ITS NOT THE SAME AS TFC" "ITS TOO DIFFERENT" rather than just soaking up the silliness and fun of it all. People need to stop taking it so seriously!

 

[Warbie]

I do actually agree - although it does grate a little when so few of the updates are used or allowed to be used competitively - and have no problem with Valve introducing new items for varieties sake. And while these updates aren't geared towards competitive play, it is a good indicator of which items are balanced, under or overpowered.

 

[Jintor]

Lol, okay.

If you're close enough to axtinguish you should be setting fires with your flamethrower anyway, not your flaregun, if that's what you're getting at.

 

[Eejit]

I do actually agree - although it does grate a little when so few of the updates are used or allowed to be used competitively - and have no problem with Valve introducing new items for varieties sake. And while these updates aren't geared towards competitive play, it is a good indicator of which items are balanced, under or overpowered.

If competitive play used more than half the classes regularly it would find more use in the updates I'm sure.

 

[G(ordon)-man]

I think Bonk is quite useful. It's great to run in front of snipers from a hiding place to another hiding place. Cooldown isn't a problem, as long as you hide during it. I agree with the other things though.

 

[nurizeko]

If you're close enough to axtinguish you should be setting fires with your flamethrower anyway, not your flaregun, if that's what you're getting at.

I was more commenting on the idea the fireaxe is useless. The thing is if I have wapped out my melee weapon I'm either out of ammo or in water in which case the higher damage of the fireaxe far outweighs the cute little lol-crit of the axtinguisher. I don't like gimmicky melee weapons like that, what I want is a reliable melee weapon that hits people reasonably hard and doesn't rely on fancy circumstances to justify its existence.

Also I was commenting on the idea the flaregun is useless. Its not. In fact in the hands of any reasonably skilled Pyro who knows what he is doing its a far more valuable tool then a shotgun, which while a reasonable secondary weapon (allot of classes have it and it does okay damage) the flare gun has another effect. Panic. Disorganization. It changes most people's priority from having a running gunfight with the Pyro (which in most cases he is at a severe disadvantage) to making them want to get away and find health, which is when a good Pyro can strike and secure the kill, or simply get that enemy out of the way for the time it takes him to run off screaming for some health.


Its a valuable tool and much more useful then the shotgun in my books, but that is me.


But that is the point of the updates, people can pick and chose what they prefer, which is nice.

At least until it introduces a random pointless "unlock" system.

 

[MJ12]

I backstabbed someone with the Razorback, and I was so confused.... it just fell off his back.

 

[Lizardizzle]

I absolutly LOVE the huntsman, and a lot of people I play with feel that it's the perfect sidegrade.

I simply CANNOT stand the way the sniper holds in fitrst-person-view.it's backwards. In third-person, it's correct.

 

[Adabiviak]

Ubersaw: As a medic, I avoid melee combat as often as possible, so I roll with this equipped. I'll need to luck out with an opponent either very low on health or skill to come out of that on top, so I figure I might as well get some uber while I'm at it.

Ambassador: I just got this last night. What's wrong with it?

Dead Ringer: Awesome. Don't let anyone tell you it sucks (they used to tell me that the kritzkreig sucked until people figured out how to use it). I've never been so successful at being a spy until I got this watch. I think most experienced spies are used to 'on demand' invisibility, but I've owned some CTF maps with this. Note: if a pyro lights you up, the body will drop, but you may still be on fire, so heads up. Also note: the loud noise made from coming back visible when the watch is done doesn't necessarily tell them where you are. For those opponents familiar with the sound, it'll often put them into a mad search for the spy, and you may be safely on your way elsewhere (and in a pitched battle, they might not even notice).

Force-a-Nature: Way overpowered. I thought it was overpowered before I got it, and now that I have it, it's confirmed. You can handle any class with this weapon. Pyros don't stand a chance. Heavies better have a medic with them. Snipers better be lucky with their first shot at you. Spies better be invisible. Against another scout similarly armed, it's really fun. Soldiers often get lucky with splash damage from their rockets if we're in a confined area, but if we're out in an exposed area, it's open season.

Bonk: I don't have this yet, but it seems like it'd be useful in rare occasions, most of which require a certain amount of teamwork. For example, taking out a sentry nest with a heavy class. Bonk up, run next to the sentry(s) to divert their attention, and the heavy class has free shots at them. On CTF maps, get your Bonk on, run past the armaments and get to the intel. Once you're on your way out, have your team start dealing with the armaments so you have a shot at getting out.

Sandman: Overpowered. Scouts have the power to (without even needing much skill) to steamroll heavy/medic combos, even in confined corridors.

Flare Gun: It's meant (I think) to let you get past sniper cover. Set one on fire a couple of times and they'll need to get health eventually, when you can make a run for it. Damage apparently increases with distance. It's incredibly satisfying to hit someone out of the air for a kill with one. There are definitely times and places for it though.

 

[MJ12]

Man, I'm so pissed. I was using the Dead Ringer and a Glitch occured where I had the Cloak and Dagger on my arm and I was like "YESS...YESSSSSS" and they I was like, hey, why the **** am I not turning invisible, and then I checked my inventory, and realized it was just a glitch. :|

 

[nipples]

I backstabbed someone with the Razorback, and I was so confused.... it just fell off his back.

I love backstabbing Razorbacks, for no real reason. It just feels cool to me.

^I finally unlocked the Cloak and Dagger after 23 hours of gameplay.

 

[Viperidae]

Honestly I wouldn't comment on the Dead Ringer and Ambassador as they are very broken atm.

 

[Jintor]

I was more commenting on the idea the fireaxe is useless. The thing is if I have wapped out my melee weapon I'm either out of ammo or in water in which case the higher damage of the fireaxe far outweighs the cute little lol-crit of the axtinguisher. I don't like gimmicky melee weapons like that, what I want is a reliable melee weapon that hits people reasonably hard and doesn't rely on fancy circumstances to justify its existence.

I find that if I'm going to be using my melee weapon I'd rather get a guarantee'd kill with it; I prefer flamethrower in any case, the axtinguisher is mainly for taking out heavies relatively painlessly or as a follow-up to a fellow pyro.

Also I was commenting on the idea the flaregun is useless. Its not. In fact in the hands of any reasonably skilled Pyro who knows what he is doing its a far more valuable tool then a shotgun, which while a reasonable secondary weapon (allot of classes have it and it does okay damage) the flare gun has another effect. Panic. Disorganization. It changes most people's priority from having a running gunfight with the Pyro (which in most cases he is at a severe disadvantage) to making them want to get away and find health, which is when a good Pyro can strike and secure the kill, or simply get that enemy out of the way for the time it takes him to run off screaming for some health.

No, I agree with you, it's just that almost everybody I meet doesn't really take into account panic and disorientation and only seem to value it via the kills they get by it, i.e. not many. I love using it but I'm never entirely sure of the effect I'm having with it - it's hard to measure panic, you see.

But that is the point of the updates, people can pick and chose what they prefer, which is nice.

At least until it introduces a random pointless "unlock" system.

Well, if the random unlock system didn't exist, I would never, ever play sniper. I hate the Sniper Rifle so much, I can't use it at all.

Ambassador: I just got this last night. What's wrong with it?

Despite the description, a mini-crit headshot with the ambassador does less damage than a normal body shot with the revolver. The only redeeming factor at the moment is that the accuracy is pin-point for the first shot.

Dead Ringer: Awesome. Don't let anyone tell you it sucks (they used to tell me that the kritzkreig sucked until people figured out how to use it). I've never been so successful at being a spy until I got this watch. I think most experienced spies are used to 'on demand' invisibility, but I've owned some CTF maps with this. Note: if a pyro lights you up, the body will drop, but you may still be on fire, so heads up. Also note: the loud noise made from coming back visible when the watch is done doesn't necessarily tell them where you are. For those opponents familiar with the sound, it'll often put them into a mad search for the spy, and you may be safely on your way elsewhere (and in a pitched battle, they might not even notice).

I understand there's some kind of way to 'chain' damage reduction with this, but you're probably not being very good at spying while doing so. You are a very awesome distraction while using it.

Force-a-Nature: Way overpowered. I thought it was overpowered before I got it, and now that I have it, it's confirmed. You can handle any class with this weapon. Pyros don't stand a chance. Heavies better have a medic with them. Snipers better be lucky with their first shot at you. Spies better be invisible. Against another scout similarly armed, it's really fun. Soldiers often get lucky with splash damage from their rockets if we're in a confined area, but if we're out in an exposed area, it's open season.

I wouldn't say it's overpowered, damage output is an absolute turkey unless you're right up in their face.

Bonk: I don't have this yet, but it seems like it'd be useful in rare occasions, most of which require a certain amount of teamwork. For example, taking out a sentry nest with a heavy class. Bonk up, run next to the sentry(s) to divert their attention, and the heavy class has free shots at them. On CTF maps, get your Bonk on, run past the armaments and get to the intel. Once you're on your way out, have your team start dealing with the armaments so you have a shot at getting out.

Probably better on pugs or skirmishes if you're going to be tactical with it, I only play pubs so that might be why I see no real use for it.

Sandman: Overpowered. Scouts have the power to (without even needing much skill) to steamroll heavy/medic combos, even in confined corridors.

No arguements, it's happened to me before.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

myth busted!

there's a couple of items that are very clearly upgrades.

übersaw vs. bonesaw= upgrade

problem: even with the reduced attack speed the übersaw is just as deadly as the bonesaw...with the added bonus of building über-charge faster.

fix:
a) make it so a crit hit with the übersaw doesn't deal extra damage but simply fills the charge meter faster.

b) remove crits from the übersaw.

this way building über with the übersaw is much more of a calculable risk for the medic to take. and the bonesaw becomes a viable alternative for medics who wants to take down opponents in mellee more reliably.

Blutsauger vs. needlegun= upgrade(probably the worst offender)

problem: since most of the medics time is spent healing rather than shooting, the crits from the needlegun becomes pointless as the output is too rare. once the medic sorts to shooting it means he's healing target is dead and there's no one else to heal nearby....in this case it becomes much more important to the medic to be able to stay alive till he can find a new healing target vs. killing opponents. on top of that there's a couple of other benefits when using the blutsauger...at distance it's easier to tell if you're compensating for the arching correctly as you can tell from the little 3+ pop-ups that your hitting your target. and in the same way you can tell when your shooting disguised spies.

fix: it has always bothered me a little that shooting the needlegun would simply deal straight up damage....after alll what's the point of shooting needles if they don't deliver some sort of payload?

a) make it so the needlegun has a slowdown effect similar to natascha...except the slow down shouldn't just be on hit but last a while after.

b) make the needlegun have disorienting effects or vision impairing effects. e.g. double vision, blurred vision or view swaying. or a combination of them all.

the second one is my most preferred as we haven't seen this yet and the first one is cover by natascha. but both these should allow the medic means of retreating from battle.

alternatively you could turn to the blutsauger and look at a possible nerf.

a) slower firing rate.

b) half mag size

c) only heal 1 hp per shot.

or any combination of above.
either way something needs to be done...anyone who has access to the blutsauger will use this rather than the needlegun...making it a clear upgrade.

Axtinsguisher vs. fireaxe= upgrade

problem: the problem has always been that the fireaxe is a rather pointless weapon due to the nature of the pyros primary weapon. if you're in range to use the fireaxe you're also in range to use your flamethrower which has a more reliable and higher damage output. e.g. longer range, constant damage output, hitting multiple targets...and if the enemy manages to kill you, also after-burn.

the only scenario in which anyone would use the fireaxe(and use it over the axtinguisher) would be if you had chosen the flaregun and are fighting under water....but lets face it if you chose the flaregun and is fighting under water, then you're doing something wrong.

now the axtinguisher on the other hand actually has it's uses...you can take out heavies and overhealed opponents quicker...and since if your in range to use the axtinguisher your also in range to use your flamethrower, so the conditional "has to be on fire" becomes a moot point as it's really not a challenge to produce that scenario.

fix:

a) fireaxes are used for breaking down doors in the real world...with a bit of good will a door could be considered a building(or atleast part of)...you see where I'm going with this?

yup...make it so the fireaxe has guaranteed crit chance vs. engy buildings. circling a lvl 1 sentry this could have it's uses. also a medic charging in with an über on an axe-wielding pyro could be interesting.


Cloak n' dagger vs. spywatch/deadringer= upgrade

problem: cloak and dagger simply outperforms both of the other watches...it's not like it's difficult to simply stop and let the damn thing recharge, so the whole drain while moving isn't that much of a problem.

fix:

a) you know that loud distinctive noise the deadringer makes?...yeah the one the deadringer doesn't need at all to be balanced...move it to the cloak and dagger watch.

this way you fix 2 problems in one shot...gives the cloak and dagger a fair trade off for permanent cloak and makes the deadringer more useful.


items I didn't mention I find to be fairly balanced and no need to change.

 

[Viperidae]

Time for quote wars.

there's a couple of items that are very clearly upgrades.

Not a bad thing, as some are very underpowered.

übersaw vs. bonesaw= upgrade

problem: even with the reduced attack speed the übersaw is just as deadly as the bonesaw...with the added bonus of building über-charge faster.

fix:
a) make it so a crit hit with the übersaw doesn't deal extra damage but simply fills the charge meter faster.

b) remove crits from the übersaw.

this way building über with the übersaw is much more of a calculable risk for the medic to take. and the bonesaw becomes a viable alternative for medics who wants to take down opponents in mellee more reliably.

Silly. Keep in mind a few things: pre-patch this thing took a monstrous amount of time to collect for new players. So, only dedicated medics who wanted it would get it quickly, after some difficult milestones.

Also, the medic has zero way to increase his ubercharge rate without it, except for teammates who self-flay. This way ubercharges can be more dynamically controlled. The problem in the first place is that a good medic could spend a minute just waiting to get an ubercharge only to get backstabbed/whatever a second before deploying it (no, this has nothing to do with skill, just luck). Without the bonesaw the medic's options would be limited and playing would be a lot less interesting and rewarding to good medics.

The only thing I agree with is the crit rate--but that's another issue, as I find the melee crit rate way too high on most classes.

Blutsauger vs. needlegun= upgrade(probably the worst offender)

problem: since most of the medics time is spent healing rather than shooting, the crits from the needlegun becomes pointless as the output is too rare. once the medic sorts to shooting it means he's healing target is dead and there's no one else to heal nearby....in this case it becomes much more important to the medic to be able to stay alive till he can find a new healing target vs. killing opponents. on top of that there's a couple of other benefits when using the blutsauger...at distance it's easier to tell if you're compensating for the arching correctly as you can tell from the little 3+ pop-ups that your hitting your target. and in the same way you can tell when your shooting disguised spies.

fix: it has always bothered me a little that shooting the needlegun would simply deal straight up damage....after alll what's the point of shooting needles if they don't deliver some sort of payload?

a) make it so the needlegun has a slowdown effect similar to natascha...except the slow down shouldn't just be on hit but last a while after.

b) make the needlegun have disorienting effects or vision impairing effects. e.g. double vision, blurred vision or view swaying. or a combination of them all.

the second one is my most preferred as we haven't seen this yet and the first one is cover by natascha. but both these should allow the medic means of retreating from battle.

alternatively you could turn to the blutsauger and look at a possible nerf.

a) slower firing rate.

b) half mag size

c) only heal 1 hp per shot.

or any combination of above.
either way something needs to be done...anyone who has access to the blutsauger will use this rather than the needlegun...making it a clear upgrade.

Again I fail too see why making the medic more playable and competitive necessitates that all his weapons be useful. A medic's survivability in combat is already limited if he's alone, especially when healing a slow class. Valve wanted a method to increase his lifespan, so the vampireneedles were chosen. Have you ever tried playing Arena as the only medic with the normal needles? Even if you nerfed how much health the needles sapped he'd be worse for it. The only change I might agree with would be to lower the firing rate and increase the velocity of the needle, as currently he's just a little too strong at close range and practically useless at higher ranges... but that's nitpicking.

Axtinsguisher vs. fireaxe= upgrade

problem: the problem has always been that the fireaxe is a rather pointless weapon due to the nature of the pyros primary weapon. if you're in range to use the fireaxe you're also in range to use your flamethrower which has a more reliable and higher damage output. e.g. longer range, constant damage output, hitting multiple targets...and if the enemy manages to kill you, also after-burn.

the only scenario in which anyone would use the fireaxe(and use it over the axtinguisher) would be if you had chosen the flaregun and are fighting under water....but lets face it if you chose the flaregun and is fighting under water, then you're doing something wrong.

now the axtinguisher on the other hand actually has it's uses...you can take out heavies and overhealed opponents quicker...and since if your in range to use the axtinguisher your also in range to use your flamethrower, so the conditional "has to be on fire" becomes a moot point as it's really not a challenge to produce that scenario.

fix:

a) fireaxes are used for breaking down doors in the real world...with a bit of good will a door could be considered a building(or atleast part of)...you see where I'm going with this?

yup...make it so the fireaxe has guaranteed crit chance vs. engy buildings. circling a lvl 1 sentry this could have it's uses. also a medic charging in with an über on an axe-wielding pyro could be interesting.

Seriously? Either axe is barely used as it is. Axtinguisher is rarely the deciding factor in a fight. It's most effectively used 1 on 1 against high-hp targets... which in their case if you're already that close you've won regardless, as you mentioned with the pyro's range. Also killing sentries? What? Pyro is already very powerful against lvl 1 sentries.

Cloak n' dagger vs. spywatch/deadringer= upgrade

problem: cloak and dagger simply outperforms both of the other watches...it's not like it's difficult to simply stop and let the damn thing recharge, so the whole drain while moving isn't that much of a problem.

fix:

a) you know that loud distinctive noise the deadringer makes?...yeah the one the deadringer doesn't need at all to be balanced...move it to the cloak and dagger watch.

this way you fix 2 problems in one shot...gives the cloak and dagger a fair trade off for permanent cloak and makes the deadringer more useful.


items I didn't mention I find to be fairly balanced and no need to change.

Completely baseless. It's too early to make judgements about these weapons, considering on most pubs players don't even recognise what the dead ringer's noise means. Besides the dead ringer is far more useful than the cloak and dagger. It absorbs crits. It basically extends the life of the Spy tenfold.

 

[Sheepo]

I've seen the Dead Ringer work well several times and I must say it is quite hilarious.