So called creation "college" seeks states okay to train teachers

[delusional]

A tidal wave as high as mount everest?

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Well that's an Earthquake. When the seabed moves, sea levels go crazy. I mean, look at the effects of just a few feet of movement in the Indian sea. If a chunk of crust snaped off and moved a massive amount, you're looking at a wall of destruction.

 

[theotherguy]

The bibilical flood story, and the story of the epic of gilgamesh probably refers to the flooding of the black sea, which occurred many thousand years ago. There used to be a tiny strip of land separating the Black Sea from the Mediterranean. The Black Sea actually used to be a very shallow inland sea which was mostly dried up, but several thousand years ago, erosion opened up the strip of land separating the Black Sea from the Mediterranean, and a huge amount of water rushed into the Black Sea until its depth was equal to that of the Mediterranean. There is archaeological evidence at the bottom of the black sea of several small bronze-age villages which were destroyed by this massive flood, and survivors of this catastrophic event likely told the story to all they came across as they migrated out of the Black Sea region into the Middle East, fleeing the rising waters. The first-hand accounts of this event likely cumulated over time into a coherent myth, most notably in the form of the Epic of Gilgamesh (which is virtually identical to the bible story, which was likely taken from the Babylonians by the Israelites during the time of the Babylonian Captivity).

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

all of which I already knew. But the flood story was being told in Abraham's time, am I right?

 

[theotherguy]

If Abraham was a real person, possibly, but not by the Israelites. The Babylonian story of Gilgamesh predates Israelite accounts, and its very possible that it was picked up by the Israelites during the time of Isaiah.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

well Abraham was a real person. I forget where the evidence is, I'll Google it(all you get is Lincoln), but he was real. And the Babylonians story could predate them, what difference does it make?

 

[theotherguy]

well Abraham was a real person. I forget where the evidence is, I'll Google it(all you get is Lincoln), but he was real. And the Babylonians story could predate them, what difference does it make?

References from contemporary historians kthxbai.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Well I don't know, I remember there was some text or something about him.

 

[The Monkey]

well some have said that there was an entire lost civilization at that time (Atlantis) because the Bible says something along those lines. But that's just pure theory.

Well,any old tidal wave could get as high as mt. everest. Could it stay that high? no, but it could reach it. And any shock of such would lead to people thinking it was global. Indians talk bout it too. There was probably a solar flare then that melted a ice glacier or two causing massive floods. all you'd need then is an earthquake to rattle it up a bit.

That's bullshit, no wave could ever get 9 km high.

A couple of hundred metres, sure, but not 9 km.

 

[kirovman]

That's bullshit, no wave could ever get 9 km high.

A couple of hundred metres, sure, but not 9 km.

Well you could get a wave that high, but it would be a result of a mass extinction event such as a meteorite.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

We're all in agreement that the flood is an overexagration of a large, but not global flood, which people took to be God angry at them.

Next debate in 3...2...1...

 

[Eejit]

...0...

Christianity contributed greatly to classical music. Yay, go Jesus!

 

[Ennui]

We're all in agreement that the flood is an overexagration of a large, but not global flood, which people took to be God angry at them.

Next debate in 3...2...1...

Not necessarily, who the hell knows what happened?

As far as I'm concerned, Jesus was just a really cool guy that a lot of other people thought was cool, and he's so cool that there's a whole religion with hundreds of millions of followers, all of whom are completely convinced that he's the son of God, despite never having met him or even being sure he existed. That's a pretty awesome achievement, so I gotta respect.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Isn't there like, not enough water in the world to get that high for long? so it had to be a tidal wave that hit the highland areas. I still think earthquake or meteorite.

All I know there was some mysterious civilization that got wiped out then. to many stories from so many people point to this.

hey, back on topic, I still support free education rights. the right to educate as the masses feel appropriately.

 

[theotherguy]

...0...

Christianity contributed greatly to classical music. Yay, go Jesus!

That's only because during the Renaissance the Church was pretty much the only source of patronage for artists.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Peasant money goes a long way, you know.

 

[Moonraker]

That's bullshit, no wave could ever get 9 km high.

A couple of hundred metres, sure, but not 9 km.

well yea but who is to say everest was that high? we all know plate tectonics right? (dont give me all the dating crap based on what we observe now, who says its the same now as it was some time ago.)

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

It was about 1/3 kilometer lower To My estimate.

No much. I think Tidal wave still.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

well yea but who is to say everest was that high? we all know plate tectonics right? (dont give me all the dating crap based on what we observe now, who says its the same now as it was some time ago.)

Um, the flood was supposed to be less than 6000 years ago. Even if everest was any different, it would be minutly so.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

nope, to my estimate it had to be around 5000-6000bc. There had to be enough time to make enough people to make slaves for Egypt generations later.

 

[Moonraker]

wow you still missed the part where i said based on things we observe now... say, maybe the plates were not always the same speed, there is no reason to assume they were, in fact, the separations in them do seem to indicate the they once moved much faster. you know, i dont know hwy im trying to justify it, im just saying, look at it from every angle before saying its stupid. i for one tihnk the everest argument is one of the worst against a great flood. there are much better ones.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

well yea, hot magma comes up, cold goes down. the speed varies, but not a whole lot. It's like putting 5N on something, then 6N. there is a change in Newtons, but if the thing take 5 gazillion N to move, it's not going to change it a lot at all.

 

[theotherguy]

well yea but who is to say everest was that high? we all know plate tectonics right? (dont give me all the dating crap based on what we observe now, who says its the same now as it was some time ago.)

I don't know, maybe the hundreds of thousands of native Indians who lived around the Himalayas during that time period, who built settlements in that region some 9,000 years ago (which are not surprisingly totally unaffected by flood damage.)

Neolithic tools found in the Kathmandu Valley indicate that people have been living in the Himalayan region for at least 9,000 years.

 

[Moonraker]

good point. i cant really say because i dont know. since we dont know specifics, its hard to say.

 

[Eejit]

Translation: Since I don't bother looking up specifics, evidence, or studying the science behind then penomenon I'll tell people that it's hard to say.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

lol, perfect. this is why I think the flood only effected lower areas. I wonder if those natives have any flood stories.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

Perhaps the planet was pelted by a storm of Icy Comets, that caused horrendous downpours, and smaller, rocky ateroids that hit the oceans, causing tsunamis, within a timeframe of about a week?

 

[theotherguy]

Perhaps the planet was pelted by a storm of Icy Comets, that caused horrendous downpours, and smaller, rocky ateroids that hit the oceans, causing tsunamis, within a timeframe of about a week?

Perhaps green lobsters invaded the shores of sicily, turning the natives into a proverbial lobster feast, while replacing it with a superior, lobster-like culture?

Both have about the same amount of evidence.

Besides, if "rocky asteroids" started impacting the Earth, we would have a hell of a lot more to worry about than tsunamis. (Fine dust particles in the air, the release of large volumes of toxic gasses, superheated magma shooting into space, etc.) Even icy asteroids would severely devastate the planet.

 

[theotherguy]

lol, perfect. this is why I think the flood only effected lower areas. I wonder if those natives have any flood stories.

Why stop at the native Himalayans? Why not look for evidence from the Chinese, the Mayans, the North American Indian tribes, native Africans, or Siberian Inuits? All of these cultures were active during that time period. Most of them settled in lowlands, along river valleys and at the coast. None of them have any myths about the flooding of the Earth. None of their surviving artifacts or structures so any signs of being involved in a worldwide flood. All of them had cultures that were unbroken by a major catastrophe 6-7 thousand years ago.

Not surprisingly, those myths center around the Black Sea area, where the lowlands were quite violently flooded 6-7 thousand years ago.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

No China has a flood myth. probably about (forgot name of major river, yangzee?) flooding.

Natives Americans are BIG on flood myths. Every culture from coast to coast has something with a flood devastating them from "The Great Spirit"

Hmm, gimme a few minutes to look up sources, I remember them somewhere.

North America (very Long)


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html#NorthAmerica

here, random selections from different coasts.

Central Eskimo:

The ocean rose suddenly and continued rising until it covered even the tops of mountains. Ice drifted on the water, and when the flood subsided, ice was stranded to form ice-caps on the tops of mountains. The shells and bones of many shellfish, fish, seals, and whales were also left high above sea level, where they may be found today. Many people drowned, but many others were saved in their boats.

(LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL)
Netsilik Eskimo:

A flood killed all animals and humans except for two Shaman, who survived in a boat. They copulated, and their offspring included the world's first women. [Balikci]

The giant Inugpasugssuk waded into the ocean to hunt seals. His penis stuck up out of the water so far away that he thought it was a seal putting its head up, and he struck it by mistake. He fell backwards in pain, and that raised a wave that flooded the whole district of Arviligjuaq. [Norman, p. 233]
laugh:)


Skagit (Washington):

The Creator made the earth and gave four names for it -- for the sun, waters, soil and forests. He said only a few people, with special preparation for the knowledge, should know all four names, or the world would change too suddenly. After a while, everyone learned the four names. When people started talking to the trees the change came in the form of a flood. When the people saw the flood coming, they made a giant canoe and filled it with five people and a male and female of all plants and animals. Water covered everything but the summit of Kobah and Takobah (Mts. Baker and Ranier). The canoe landed on the prairie. Doquebuth, the new Creator, was born of a couple from the canoe. He was told to go to a lake (Lake Campbell) and swim and fast to get his spirit powers, but he delayed. Finally he did so after his family deserted him. The Old Creator came to him in dreams. First he told Doquebuth to wave his blanket over the water and the forest and name the four names of the earth; this created food for everyone. Next, at the direction of the Old Creator, he gathered the bones of the people who lived before the flood, waved the blanket over them and named the four names, and made people again. These people couldn't talk, so he similarly made brains for them from the soil. Then they spoke many different languages, and Doquebuth blew them back to the places they lived before the flood. Someday, another flood will come and change the world again. [Clark, pp. 139-141]


Choctaw (Mississippi):

A prophet was sent by the high god to warn of a coming flood, but nobody took notice. When the flood came, the prophet took to a raft. After several months, he saw a black bird. He signaled it, but it just cawed and flew away. Later, he sighted and signaled a bluish bird. The bird flapped, moaned dolorously, and guided the raft towards where the sun was breaking through. Next morning, he landed on an island with all kinds of animals. He cursed the black bird (a crow) and blessed the bluish one (a dove). [Gaster, p. 116]



ok, too many to write down.

 

[theotherguy]

I'm talking about the motif of the entire world being flooded, animals getting on a boat, and the boat landing on a mountain.

Floods are a big part of nature, especially for cultures living along the coast or in river valleys, so it wouldn't be surprising if many cultures had flood myths.

What we ought to do is look for flood myths in nomadic cultures who rarely settle in river-valley regions or raise crops. If a similar myth of a "worldwide flood" appeared in many nomadic cultures, it might lend some credence to the myth as either having a common predecessor or being based on some actual catastrophic event.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

read above, updated.


Every culture has a story where some God killed evil people with a flood. The survivors were in a boat. Usually either a family or a guy and girl.

 

[Solaris]

Portal; you are not an expert on anything. So do not say, 'by my estimates' or 'some historians once said'.

It won't cut it.

Sources please

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Well I just did, look above.

Otherwise it's just lazy.


as for estimating Everest, that's my math(this is probably different from what i said earlier because I think I'm cutting off or adding 1000 years):

everest grows 2.1 inches a year. so, 2.1 x 5000 = 10500 / 12 = 875 feet.

 

[Solaris]

Well I just did, look above.

Otherwise it's just lazy.


as for estimating Everest, that's my math(this is probably different from what i said earlier because I think I'm cutting off or adding 1000 years):

everest grows 2.1 inches a year. so, 2.1 x 5000 = 10500 / 12 = 875 feet.

This is not it's permanent growth rate. it changes

 

[Moonraker]

Translation: Since I don't bother looking up specifics, evidence, or studying the science behind then penomenon I'll tell people that it's hard to say.

actually no, there are no real FACTS thats why its hard to say. i could've typed out a big long post but ill leave that up to you other guys. im just saying that it doesnt matter whos perspective you look at it from, nobody knows what the hell happened anyway. in short, im tired of ppl like you and this thread is bullshit.

 

[Eejit]

I'm tired of people who think that since we don't have time machines that all of the science of palaeogeology is some vague guess with no evidence which can be ignored if you feel like it.

 

[Moonraker]

not at all what i said, but since that is about the best response im going to get, have fun!

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

actually no, there are no real FACTS thats why its hard to say. i could've typed out a big long post but ill leave that up to you other guys. im just saying that it doesnt matter whos perspective you look at it from, nobody knows what the hell happened anyway.

Of course there is no 100% certainty, but since there is a lot of evidence, it is logical to assume that that is what happened (I assume where talking about the floods non-existance here).

in short, im tired of ppl like you and this thread is bullshit.

you realise Eejit isn't an atheist? (you'd better not be eejit, or this will be really embassaring D: )

 

[Eejit]

you realise Eejit isn't an atheist? (you'd better not be eejit, or this will be really embassaring D: )

Um, generally agnostic leaning towards some kind of creator initiating everything. I quite like Jesus' teachings but the whole faith in him is based on Old Testament which is a load of shit.