So .. did the US win in Iraq? (my opinion)

Aside from the fact that in his search he miss spelt Caspian.
Did you mean: "Aside from the fact that, in his search, he misspelt Caspean"?

Because I spelt Caspean exactly correctly when I quoted your post:

clarky003 a short while ago said:
They already do have access to the Caspean sea, please read about it.
I hate to be a grammar matron, but after responding to more than three dozen such posts, I find it helps me better understand your arguments when I needn't take several additional seconds trying to figure out if you've again confused your, you're, bobs and bob's.

But really, who cares about grammar when there are unsourced claims to contend with!

They have already successfully built pipelines from the Caspian sea,
Wrong!

You'll note from your .jpeg that the pipeline(s) you are referring to are projected. That is to say, estimated but uncompleted.
As far as I have been able to uncover (although I honestly didn't really try) the proposed pipeline(s) have no american affiliation.

That renders your statement that "there is large US interest in the area" somewhat suspect. The most prominent country in these oil conspiracy claims, Unocal, had withdrawn their plans nearly a decade ago.

I can't quite be sure what Mech is talking about when he says that they don't have access [...] its the transportation to the coastline that is the issue.
You said american companies are trying to get the oil out through pipeline(s) in Afghanistan, thus the war is a big corporate conspiracy (what this has to do with the iraq war in your head, I have no idea).

Now please show me an american company with a trans-afghanistan pipeline.

You'll also find these planned lines are being built by a consortium that has American, Russian and Chinese company's all as backers. The projected pipelines safety is obviously paramount.
Wait, this is stupid on several levels.

1) Russia was and probably still is one of the biggest peaceful opponents of the bush administration.
Why is it a conspiracy when it's an american company, and not suspicious when it's a russian company?

2) Saying that corporations want to safeguard their assets is a huge "well, duh" statement.
Unless you mean the united states government considers the safety of a corporate pipeline paramount (meaning the single most important thing in the mideast region).
In which case I'd have to ask why the trans-afghanistan pipeline has been stalled almost indefinitely due to the Taliban controlling a large section of the southern territory they plan to build through.

3) Which american companies are backing which pipeline?
Last I checked, Unocal pulled out in 1998. Who's left?

They spent all that money on desposing of Saddam Hussein? they did? when they knew he had no wmd aswell. I wouldn't flatter the bush administration so much, the economy is far more important. After all it keeps the country ticking!.
Wrong.

They spent a relatively small amount of money, time and effort on deposing Saddam Hussein. Their entire plan was to get rid of him as quickly and cleanly as possible, and that part went without a hitch. Whether they thought he had WMDs or not is unimportant, because the end result is the same. The entire focus of the plan was simply removing him from power, and it worked quite well.

The huge costs came not long afterwards, because the US had not established any clear plan for post-conflict peace.
There was (and is) rather blatantly no plan to stabilize the country after that event.

Read Bob Woodward's Plan of Attack for a fairly detailed account of the successes and failures of the Iraq war's initial attack phase.

[P]eople percieve the motives and importance of those motives for war differently, none the less they are all valid motivations for war, some logically more so than others.
Some are more logical indeed. Here's yours, as far as I can tell:

Bush: I WANNA MONEY

Cheney: A company of some sorts will build an afghanistan pipeline fron the CASPEAN sea, once afgahnistan is stable! The stability of afganniestan is our first and only objective.

Bush: Yes, and then we will take that company's money somehow!! YOU ARE A SMART MAN.

Cheney: OF COURSE I AM SMART I INVENTED THE INFINITE ENERGY FLYING CAR. All we need to do is make sure afghanistan has no explosions for at least a long time.

Bush: Great, so let's attack Iraq for absolutely no sensible reason and basically forget afghanistan exists!
Also, let's not use the power from our infinite energy flying cars to make trillions.

Cheney: Then let's let co-builder corporations from Russia, Red China and elsewhere take upwards of 60 percent of the profit the corporation that we'll eventually steal from won't recieve because the taliban still control large chunks of the country!

Taliban: Yay!

Bush: Also, we must make absolutely sure that we have no plan for winning the iraq war ever. That way, no-one will ever become suspicious because we'll never succeed at our goals!

Cheney: Already done! This is the perfect strategy!


I mean, compare that to my ludicrous conspiracy theory version of events:


Rumsfeld: Let's attack Iraq some day. They are evil and we can tell because we are fundamentalist christians.

Bush: 9/11 has made everyone kill-happy so now is our chance to do good in Iraq, even if we have no evidence. What do our spys say?

Spy: Saddam is probably evil but our evidence is weak. Maybe we should get more evidence?

Bush: Too late, I have already called Saddam an axis of evil and colin powell is saying they make al qaeda's anthrax.

Powell: Saddam might have weapon labs that look like optimus prime.

Bush: Yikes, that sounds evil! Are we ready to attack?

Military: Yes, Rumsfeld and the gang have been planning this attack plan for decades.

*attacks, removes Saddam*

American Public: Okay, we are done attacking. What now?

Bush: Since we are good christians, they will love us and the love will build bridges of democracy into their hearts!

*that does not happen*

Bush: Oh well, lol! Can't make an omlette!


Really the question is are they successful so far

Yes, that's the question this thread is based on. Now provide an answer that makes sense.
 
I think it was more like:

*9/11*

US public: D: D: D:

Bush: D: D: D:

...

Bush: :D

Public: D: D: D: D: D: D: D: D:

Bush: We must act so that we look like we're doing something!

Advisor: Our military is too strong.... We should down the spending or something...

Bush's Friend: Let's invade! That'll take care of it!

Bush: Yay! :D :D :D

*invasion*

Bush & Co.: YAY! WE WON!

Bush: This is fun!

Public: :D

*invasion 2*

Bush: YAY AGAIN!

Public: :|

...

Maniac: BOOM!

...

Bush: D: D: D:

Public: :flame:

Military: :|
 
*And perhaps the future*

Bush: :flame:

Public: D: D: D:

Military: :borg:

*State of Emergency*

Military: :sniper:

Public: D: D: D: D: D: D: D: D: D: D: D: D: D:

Bush: :devil:

*Bush reigns on for 20 years*

*WW3*

*WW4*

...

*WW12*
 
...

It's go time. *whips out gun*

And you're stuck in traffic! *unloads safety*

D:
 
Would you stop arguing about the oil pipelines and that kind of nonsense?

IT'S NOT ABOUT MONEY.
IT'S NOT ABOUT OIL.

Well, maybe it is, but that's definitely NOT the primary reason behind it.

Look, if you're in a battle field, and you initially win, then you break down, you need someway to recover and let your enemy break down. Now, you've already lost a lot in the battle itself, but if you succeed at recovering and breaking your enemy, then you're winning, despite your loss.
You may lose some or many of your soldiers, you may lose money, you may even lose the "unbreakable" image people have had about you, but you'd still be winning the battle itself.

That's what I'm talking about.
 
IT'S NOT ABOUT MONEY.
IT'S NOT ABOUT OIL.

Well, maybe it is.
lolol, best phrasing ever.


In any case, your entire silly theory rests on the assumption that the war in iraq is based on weakening terrorism, which it isn't, and that killing iraqi civilians somehow acheives that goal, which it doesn't.
 
I'm still wondering if he read the article I posted.
 
I like your definition of how we win in that kind of situation. But why go through all the trouble, I have a shortcut. Lets drop a few nukes on the middle east 10-15 powerful ones should do it. Then lets bomb every Mosque throughout the world. Then just to be sure we didn't miss anyone lets send out special forces on a mission to kill any brown person they see. How awesome does that sound? But don't forget to leave Saudi Arabia out of this, they are too friendly with the republicans.

:upstare:

And these idiots wonder why they hate us, it must be because of our freedoms.
 
Lol, I can't believe he actually responded to that with this:



:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Hey, hasan, let me give you a hint; look up the word precariously.
Thanks for the hint.

I'm still wondering if he read the article I posted.
I haven't.
Mind summarizing it?


...might give you some insight into how things actually work hasan.
I don't know how things "actually" work, but I think I know enough about how they work to not be blinded by all this "spreading democracy" talk.

But why go through all the trouble, I have a shortcut. Lets drop a few nukes on the middle east
Surely real politics aren't that simple. Dropping nukes probably means the end of world domination for the US and the start of a nuclear world war. If not that, then who knows what it might trigger?
 
Thanks for the hint.
You're welcome.
Surely real politics aren't that simple. Dropping nukes probably means the end of world domination for the US and the start of a nuclear world war. If not that, then who knows what it might trigger?
You sir are an idiot. Someone, quick, take this guys voter registration card.
 
"The Sunni population is paying no price for the support it is giving to the terrorists," he said. "From their point of view, it is cost-free. We have to change that equation."
(...)
"Following that model, one Pentagon proposal would send Special Forces teams to advise, support and possibly train Iraqi squads, most likely hand-picked Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers, even across the border into Syria, according to military insiders familiar with the discussions."


I think this almost is exactly what is happening now.

What? Is they're a problem with protecting ourselves from the religiously extreme?
 
In any case, your entire silly theory rests on the assumption that the war in iraq is based on weakening terrorism, which it isn't, and that killing iraqi civilians somehow acheives that goal, which it doesn't.

Plus, were also ignoring the fact were not to kill civilians. (However, unfortunately, the case may appear to be). Hell, I don't know why were there, but killing civilians is'int one of them!
 
In any case, your entire silly theory rests on the assumption that the war in iraq is based on weakening terrorism, which it isn't, and that killing iraqi civilians somehow acheives that goal, which it doesn't.
Well, I did not assume that, america has been wanting to distroy Iraq for more than a decade now. Bush used 9/11 as an execuse to .. sorry, not Bush, the neo-cons used 9/11 as an execuse to carry out their old plans of destroying Iraq.

Killing Iraqis here and there doesn't achieve that goal.
Spreading chaos in the country, does.

You sir are an idiot. Someone, quick, take this guys voter registration card.
I think your replies to this thread are a waste of time and space.
 
They did destroy Iraq back in 2003. That goal is over.

Creating chaos is obviously not the goal because, if it were, the easiest way to do so would be to withdraw the military presence completely.

They are staying in Iraq for a reason, and that reason clearly involves at least attempting to create stability.
Everything I've seen points towards botched benevolence and a genuine fear of mid-eastern reprisal should the situation deteriorate.
I've seen no indication of whatever the hell it is you're saying.
(They don't want to kill people, but they do want people to die?)

I know conspiracy theories may be fun, but you've really got to think these things through before you say them.
 
Well you really don't know what it's like in Iraq, so I understand why you think I'm crazy .. but everything about Iraq is crazy.
I myself can't imagine what's happening there, I only hear about it and it blows my mind.

Creating chaos is obviously not the goal because, if it were, the easiest way to do so would be to withdraw the military presence completely.
What do you call the situation now? is it not chaos?
 
What do you call the situation now? is it not chaos?

Would there not be more chaos if the US were to withdraw?

I'm quite sure that was the point he was getting at.
 
Would there not be more chaos if the US were to withdraw?

I'm quite sure that was the point he was getting at.

So if they don't withdraw now when is a good time to withdraw? This war is lost, there is noway we can win it. We will be forced to pull out eventually, and currently, as the NIE estimates, each day we stay in Iraq the resistence gets worse and more innocent people die.
 
Exactly. But the same things will happen if they leave, with the bulk of the damage shifting onto the iraqi people.

It's a perfect Catch-22.


What do you call the situation now? is it not chaos?
You're confusing events with goals.

Just because something did happen does not mean that it was pre-planned by the american government or any other entity.
That's like seeing clouds in the sky and saying that the americans put them up there with cloud machines as part of some anti-sun warfare.

Such fallacious logic is the root of almost all conspiracy theories.
 
no the US truely thought they would dispose of Saddam quickly, install a puppet regime and be out of there before summer (at least in force)

"It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." - Donald Rumsfeld Feb 2003 ( amonth before invasion)

he's certainly changed his mind since then

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0627/dailyUpdate.html
 
each day we stay in Iraq the resistence gets worse and more innocent people die.
That's not a resistance; it's chaos.
I'm not saying there's no resistance, but you're getting it all wrong.

The US forces are providing cover for the militias, or just ignoring them most of the time. The militias also ignore that US forces most of the time and focus their operations on the Iraqi people.
Now, I'd wish to think that if the US forces withdraw then we can take care of the militias and crush them, but I think that's not true.
The militias are backed up by Iran, if the US is to withdraw, then Iran will continue supporting the militia with money, training, and even men.
 
Iran sure is more powerful these days, now that its neighbouring enemies have collapsed.
 
That's not a resistance; it's chaos.
I'm not saying there's no resistance, but you're getting it all wrong.

The US forces are providing cover for the militias, or just ignoring them most of the time. The militias also ignore that US forces most of the time and focus their operations on the Iraqi people.
Now, I'd wish to think that if the US forces withdraw then we can take care of the militias and crush them, but I think that's not true.
The militias are backed up by Iran, if the US is to withdraw, then Iran will continue supporting the militia with money, training, and even men.

I don't mean to sound condecending but you really need to read up on this before you post. You watch too much Fox news for your own good.

I don't pretend to know everything that goes on in the middle east, though I am trying. However, it is common knowledge that Iran nor Syria nor any other country Fox News names is helping the insurgency. These are local Iraqi fanatics wanting to gain control of the country. It is what you call a civil war fought with suicide bombing and the killing of innocent people.

You are 100% when you say it is chaos, but the US military being in there doesn't do anything to help that.

Exactly. But the same things will happen if they leave, with the bulk of the damage shifting onto the iraqi people.

It's a perfect Catch-22.
I agree and I wish I knew the answer to this problem. I do not support getting out of there today, but I think we need to set some goals and deadlines until eventually we are out of there. Staying there until every last Iraqi is killed or forced out of the country because of this civil war doesn't seem like a solution.

What shocks me is the green zone, imagine what that tells the Iraqi people when they see a bunch of resorts for American christians in the middle of their capitol. The while people have Air Conditioning 24/7, running clean water, and mountains of food such as pork while outside those walls you are lucky if you get running water on a perticular day, food is scarce, and everyone is out of the job melting in 130 degree weather. And with all the development going on there it suggests the US has plans to stay there a very long time, fueling the insurgency and the hate toward the US.

I simply can't believe that people like Hasan simply don't give a shit and have to audacity to come in here and say how wonderful it is that all these innocent Iraqis, from women to children to babies are dying. Sadly a lot of people in this country actually feel the way he does, they simply don't talk about it so they don't look like the racist idiots that they really are.
 
I got the impression that Hasan actually was from Iraq? I dunno. That may have been another forum member who I've gotten confused with.
 
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