So have we concluded...

[MiG]

Physics bugs for the script. Not that it matters much anyway, valve couldn't exactly ship a game with doors that kick themselves down...
And scripting was the main reason half life was so great! Though we do want a different experience to what we got in halflife, scripting is what the fps genre has been feeding off ever since halflife.
Still, I don't think we'll see scripting for something so small in the final build.

 

[Aknot]

Originally posted by Xtasy0
if you're basing your purchasing decision on AI then you're buying it for the wrong reason(s).

No Im not. But it is part of the whole. It is not like we get a demo BEFORE the game comes out, like other providers. I (we) have to base my (our) decisions on reviews, word of mouth, friends, etc. Then we STILL might not like it. That is my biggest reason I "complain/play devils advocate". I WILL buy this game. Past expierence PROVES they put out quality, but will it be "next level quality" or same ole run and gun. I question because I care.

 

[Parasite]

Originally posted by Xtasy0
if you're basing your purchasing decision on AI then you're buying it for the wrong reason(s).

Exactly, HL2 is not an AI showcase, its about an incredible, immersive and fun story... Wait for TF2 if you want to see the source engine AI make tactical manuvers, with little to no scripting. HL2 is just not that game...its gonna be heavily scripted, exept for maybe a few battle scenes.

I mean c'mon, when the strider blows out the bridge, do you really think thats about AI? No, its about and awesome and memorable experience in the game. That bridge is there for the purpose of being blown out...not "just in case the strider wants to blow it up" The allies run and the game flows up to that point so you can be there to see it. IM more interested in that kinda shit for HL2 than fancy AI. The AI just doesnt matter for this game. It will be a nice touch in places, but its not gonna drive the story.

 

[Kadayi]

Its safe to assume that certainly many elements within the E3 movies were scripted to a greater or lesser degree with the simple aim of moving the demonstration along to highlight the particular points that they were bringing up. Hell it was obvious that some scripting was taking place at the point where the Headcrap leapt at the camera during the tech demo level.

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Aknot
I can rides Valves ass (as you so eloquently put it) over anything I want. My speculation is based on their speculation. They speculate it will work "X" way I am speculating something else.

Do people purposely come in here with a sharp stick and jab people to provoke a reaction?

If a car manufacture shows me a prototype and I dont like the way the lights are I am going to say something about that if I am really interested in that car.

Input, feedback before the game goes live is the best way a consumer of software can voice their concerns. Cant buy the game get fed up with it and return it because "its crappy AI". SO I voice my concerns ahead of time.

My point is you people aren't even basing their accusations on Valve's e3 demo, but on stolen material that nobody was ever meant to see outside of Valve's office.

If you're critical of things you saw in the e3 demo, more power to you, you have every right to be. But if you feel this bootleg early build has debunked any of Valve's claims, you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Aknot]

Originally posted by iamironsam
My point is you people aren't even basing their accusations on Valve's e3 demo, but on stolen material that nobody was ever meant to see outside of Valve's office.

If you're critical of things you saw in the e3 demo, more power to you, you have every right to be. But if you feel this bootleg early build has debunked any of Valve's claims, you're sadly mistaken.

The combine kicking the door down WAS in the E3 video. Even before the "leak" we were discussing in another thread about the "shooting of the wash machine". Both of these instances were in the same movie from E3.

 

[Parasite]

Look it really doesnt matter, Valve NEVER said the game would be unscripted, the most they ever said is that they have good AI that can function without AI...thats it, they never once claimed they would never use scripting, they never once said the entire game would operate on AI. This is just another example of things getting blown out of proportion.

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Parasite
I mean c'mon, when the strider blows out the bridge, do you really think thats about AI?

I totally believe the interaction between the Stryder and the bridge can and will be done without scripting when the game comes out. Deformable objects like the bridge will probably be flagged as a breakable. The Stryder will be programmed to attack breakable objects and/or duck beneath objects that obstruct the path between itself and it's primary objective, namely killing you. Very simple.

That's not to say the deformation of the bridge won't be scripted, it most definetly will. Simulating the effects of a projectial hitting a complex rigid body would be tough to do in real time. They'll most likely use scripting for the basic body of the bridge, ragdoll physics for certain parts, and real time physics for the pieces that come flying off of it. That combination will create very realistic affect that'll differ every time.

The e3 demo was definitely done with scripting, but just to give an exciting and consistant experience for every group of people that came to the booth to watch the demo.

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Aknot
The combine kicking the door down WAS in the E3 video. Even before the "leak" we were discussing in another thread about the "shooting of the wash machine". Both of these instances were in the same movie from E3.

I never said they weren't.

 

[Aknot]

So you say that the strider can not go from point A to point B because Item 1 is blocking the only viable path. Item 1 is set with a destructable "flag" and a (lets say) hover flag indicating space to move below Item 1.

The Striyder will "attack" destructable flags or crouch and move at hover flags.

Thats the way I understand it.

So if I were to destroy the bridge first the stryider would not pause and attempt to destroy the bridge correct? Because the AI/script tells it to look for destroy/hover flags.

 

[Aknot]

Originally posted by iamironsam
I never said they weren't.

Sorry, your quote of:

"My point is you people aren't even basing their accusations on Valve's e3 demo,"

was read incorrectly then.

 

[Kadayi]

Originally posted by iamironsam
I totally believe the interaction between the Stryder and the bridge can and will be done without scripting when the game comes out. Deformable objects like the bridge will probably be flagged as a breakable. The Stryder will be programmed to attack breakable objects and/or duck beneath objects that obstruct the path between itself and it's primary objective, namely killing you. Very simple.

That's not to say the deformation of the bridge won't be scripted, it most definetly will. Simulating the effects of a projectial hitting a complex rigid body would be tough to do in real time. They'll most likely use scripting for the basic body of the bridge, ragdoll physics for certain parts, and real time physics for the pieces that come flying off of it. That combination will create very realistic affect that'll differ every time.

The e3 demo was definitely done with scripting, but just to give an exciting and consistant experience for every group of people that came to the booth to watch the demo.

I wonder whether the parts breaking from the bridge exploding (even the letters) cause damage if they hit you? Anyone know?

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Aknot
So you say that the strider can not go from point A to point B because Item 1 is blocking the only viable path. Item 1 is set with a destructable "flag" and a (lets say) hover flag indicating space to move below Item 1.

The Striyder will "attack" destructable flags or crouch and move at hover flags.

Thats the way I understand it.

So if I were to destroy the bridge first the stryider would not pause and attempt to destroy the bridge correct? Because the AI/script tells it to look for destroy/hover flags.

Sure, once the bridge's destruction script has completed, it'll be shifted to an unflagged state. It could even have more than one destructed state, allowing you to blow it apart even more. It could even get to the point where it's divided into several independant entities and completely succums to gravity, that would be really impressive. But all of it would be mostly scripting with a little real time physics thrown in to make it look adlibbed.

 

[Parasite]

God damn I hate the stupid post edit time limit...what purpose could it possible serve...anyway, I wanted to edit a typo from my previous post:

Look it really doesnt matter, Valve NEVER said the game would be unscripted, the most they ever said is that they have good AI that can function without scripting...thats it, they never once claimed they would never use scripting, they never once said the entire game would operate on AI. This is just another example of things getting blown out of proportion.

Also, about the Strider bridge thing. Your probably right about that iamironsam, but I was making a point about scripting for gameflow reasons...The bridge is there to be blown out...wether or not the Strider used AI isnt the point...the point is that its there for the sole purpose of being blown out and creating that incredible and memorable scene. That kinda thing is what HL2 is about...not the AI. Scripting HAS to be used to make sure you see that.

 

[Aknot]

Originally posted by iamironsam
Sure, once the bridge's destruction script has completed, it'll be shifted to an unflagged state. It could even have more than one destructed state, allowing you to blow it apart even more. It could even get to the point where it's divided into several independant entities and completely succums to gravity, that would be really impressive. But all of it would be mostly scripting with a little real time physics thrown in to make it look adlibbed.

With that in mind IF the Stryider stopped and fired on the already destroyed bridge would that constitute a "scripted" event?

(no I am not going there. I will save this till it comes out OFFICIALLY and try it then)

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
I wonder whether the parts breaking from the bridge exploding (even the letters) cause damage if they hit you? Anyone know?

Definitely. When you use the gravity gun to throw radiators at combines, they seem to take damage. I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for you.

I'm sure the game incorporates some sort of algorithim to determine the amount of damage you'll take based on the speed and mass (the Havoc engine lets you assign mass to objects) of a projectile.

 

[Parasite]

Originally posted by Parasite
God damn I hate the stupid post edit time limit...what purpose could it possible serve...anyway, I wanted to edit a typo from my previous post:



Also, about the Strider bridge thing. Your probably right about that iamironsam, but I was making a point about scripting for gameflow reasons...The bridge is there to be blown out...wether or not the Strider used AI isnt the point...the point is that its there for the sole purpose of being blown out and creating that incredible and memorable scene. That kinda thing is what HL2 is about...not the AI. Scripting HAS to be used to make sure you see that.

It depends how you look at it...the bridge changing states is likely a scripted event (although who knows what the HL2 entities will entail) if there is multiple states to the bridge, the AI Strider uses that info to make a descision on it. Just because the reason he shoots the broken bridge isnt obvious doesnt mean the AI isnt reacting correctly, and on its own.

Also, the AI is "helped" by hint brushes...alot like HL1. Remember he AI doesnt "see" the map, at least not like you do, it needs entities flagged in specific was in order to operate.

 

[Aknot]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
I wonder whether the parts breaking from the bridge exploding (even the letters) cause damage if they hit you? Anyone know?

Im thinking "some" may stay. Others will "fade" away. You have to figure all the "movement" and "live" items will slow down the PC.

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Aknot
With that in mind IF the Stryider stopped and fired on the already destroyed bridge would that constitute a "scripted" event?

(no I am not going there. I will save this till it comes out OFFICIALLY and try it then)

Haha, definitely. That wouldn't just be scripting, it would be poor scripting. If that happens in the retail I'll be pissed.

(I figure you're implying that it happens in the pre-release, I'm sure it's just for the consistant effect)

 

[Parasite]

Originally posted by Aknot
Im thinking "some" may stay. Others will "fade" away. You have to figure all the "movement" and "live" items will slow down the PC.

that stuff will probably be user definable, or as part of the tech scaling.

 

[Bramski]

was I tripping or something when Valve stated that their AI system WAS ACTUALLY SCRIPTED? the unique thing about it was that each character/enemy/ally has the ability to assess a certain scenario and initiate whatever AI script from a whole bunch of AI scripts that it deems appropriate for the situation at hand. Thats the fekking beautiful thing about it.

Do you actually think that the AI just makes things up as it goes along, did you expect to kick a door in at some point in the game and find 6 combine soldiers playing Cards in a room just cos they 'felt' like it. AI is becoming really advanced but I think that it will be a good few years before we see any AI that is totally independant from scripting and prompting.

Did Valve lie? Who knows, but one thing Im sure of is THIS GAME IS GONNA ROCK

 

[Aknot]

Originally posted by iamironsam
Haha, definitely. That wouldn't just be scripting, it would be poor scripting. If that happens in the retail I'll be pissed.

(I figure you're implying that it happens in the pre-release, I'm sure it's just for the consistant effect)

Yeah...uh....er a friend of a friends cousin told me he heard it in school at lunch.

Thats why I get upset with "showing" us a vision that may or may not be true, and it comes back to the showing off speculation.

 

[Parasite]

Also, I just though about this...If your talking about the E3 leaked demo. Remember Gabe wasnt playing the game for that audience....it was a pre recorded demo.

So if the leaked version allows you to play it...all those events are gonna happen if the NPC is there or not...

One time I recorded a CS demo...well, when I played it, somehow at the begining all the players got "shifted" to a slightly different place then they actualy started at when I recorded the demo. They then followed thier exact paths, but from that shifted position needless to say guys were getting stuck behind walls and shooting at walls and whatnot. The really funny thing was that doors still opened when the player should have physically been there. They were off stuck in some corner, pretending to open a door. Players were dying when they actualy died timewise, but not in the right place....they just died whever thier glitched bodies happened to be.

I think that is exactly what is playing out in the leaked demo...The leaked demo was not a playable game...It was a recording. If you kill the guy that kicks the door open, the door will still get kicked open in the recording...all the entities play out thier recorded role regardless if the NPCs are there or not.

With that said, I dont think all this door business, or strider shooting stuff has anything to do with AI or scripting, but with the fact that the entire thing is actually pre-recorded and thus, will play out no matter what you change in that pre- defined world.

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Parasite
Also, I just though about this...If your talking about the E3 leaked demo. Remember Gabe wasnt playing the game for that audience....it was a pre recorded demo.

So if the leaked version allows you to play it...all those events are gonna happen if the NPC is there or not...

One time I recorded a CS demo...well, when I played it, somehow at the begining all the players got "shifted" to a slightly different place then they actualy started at when I recorded the demo. They then followed thier exact paths, but from that shifted position needless to say guys were getting stuck behind walls and shooting at walls and whatnot. The really funny thing was that doors still opened when the player should have physically been there. They were off stuck in some corner, pretending to open a door. Players were dying when they actualy died timewise, but not in the right place....they just died whever thier glitched bodies happened to be.

I think that is exactly what is playing out in the leaked demo...The leaked demo was not a playable game...It was a recording. If you kill the guy that kicks the door open, the door will still get kicked open in the recording...all the entities play out thier recorded role regardless if the NPCs are there or not.

With that said, I dont think all this door business, or strider shooting stuff has anything to do with AI or scripting, but with the fact that the entire thing is actually pre-recorded and thus, will play out no matter what you change in that pre- defined world.

I thought that when the e3 demo footage was filmed their was actually someone playing the game, so it would make sense to script the scenes for a consistant presentation. It could be a timedemo, but then characters and objects wouldn't even react to your presense and attempts at interaction. I haven't dled the pre-release, but from the posts I've seen, I get the impression that they do interact with you.

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Aknot
Sorry, your quote of:

"My point is you people aren't even basing their accusations on Valve's e3 demo,"

was read incorrectly then.

I ment "... your accusations...". Sorry.

 

[Aknot]

Originally posted by Parasite
Also, I just though about this...If your talking about the E3 leaked demo. Remember Gabe wasnt playing the game for that audience....it was a pre recorded demo.

With that said, I dont think all this door business, or strider shooting stuff has anything to do with AI or scripting, but with the fact that the entire thing is actually pre-recorded and thus, will play out no matter what you change in that pre- defined world.

See thats where the questions start on a few things.

1. Why not? The game supposedly was going to be ready by September. They should of had SOME real time game stuff.
2. Why not, as Ive said before, show two pre-recorded plays showing the AI/Scripted events doing something different each time.

Then brings us back to square one with a bunch of whys. I still think this would make a great movie/book/soap opera. I also still believe (im not paranoid just curious) there is a puzzle piece or two missing in the grand scheme of things, and we may never know.

 

[Aknot]

sam we are baseing this on the E3 demos. The first one I brought up a few weeks back was about the combine shooting at the washing machine and the palyer "moving" into the line of fire, like the player forgot he was suppose to be where the Combine was told (scripted) to fire.

 

[Parasite]

No, remember the whole "wood break lag" fiasco...Gabe said it was a problem with demo playback. Also, when people asked what kinda comp they used at e3 he mentions that it was a demo.

The problem is, if it was a demo playback... its not meant to be played at all, so we cant really say how things would react. I havent DLed the leak eaither, but the impression Im getting is that people kill of the guy that kicks the door, but the door flies open as if he kicked it anyway.

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Aknot
sam we are baseing this on the E3 demos. The first one I brought up a few weeks back was about the combine shooting at the washing machine and the palyer "moving" into the line of fire, like the player forgot he was suppose to be where the Combine was told (scripted) to fire.

I thought it's cause the combine had an idea of where you were, but no direct line of sight, so he was just shooting randomly (totally realistic). Then the player jump behind the washing machine for cover, and cause it's the only safe way to get down the hall.

That's another scene that, if scripted, will become blatantly apparent in the retail.

 

[Aknot]

Watch it again.
OK Im saving this thread and will "revisit" it or PM you guys when the game is live. Im not afraid to eat crow.

PEACE!

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by Aknot
See thats where the questions start on a few things.

1. Why not? The game supposedly was going to be ready by September. They should of had SOME real time game stuff.
2. Why not, as Ive said before, show two pre-recorded plays showing the AI/Scripted events doing something different each time.

Then brings us back to square one with a bunch of whys. I still think this would make a great movie/book/soap opera. I also still believe (im not paranoid just curious) there is a puzzle piece or two missing in the grand scheme of things, and we may never know.

the whole E3 demo was real time gameplay, WTF are you talking about?

and they didnt want to show two seperate ventures through each level, its their game, let them show it off however the **** they want, they weren't showcasing the AI they were showcasing the game as a whole, you're just too stuck on this AI thing, geesh give it up already.

Originally posted by Aknot
sam we are baseing this on the E3 demos. The first one I brought up a few weeks back was about the combine shooting at the washing machine and the palyer "moving" into the line of fire, like the player forgot he was suppose to be where the Combine was told (scripted) to fire.

ok, the E3 presentation was a .dem file looping basically, they could have gone through it 50 times for each section until it was JUST RIGHT, the player didnt forget to move, the video was EXACTLY what they wanted you to see, they only had to get it right once, save that .dem file and thats what they would run it through at E3.

 

[Rant]

DID Valve mentioned before the E3 demo is script?

Wouldnt it be MORE IMPRESSIVE to show that the demo isnt script?

 

[theGreenBunny]

Originally posted by Aknot1. Why not? The game supposedly was going to be ready by September. They should of had SOME real time game stuff.
2. Why not, as Ive said before, show two pre-recorded plays showing the AI/Scripted events doing something different each time.

Originally posted by Rant
Wouldnt it be MORE IMPRESSIVE to show that the demo isnt script?

People keep saying this, and it's starting to piss me off somewhat.
We don't know why Valve do what they do, that's because they're Valve, and we're us. Maybe they did the e3 demo like they did because it was easier, maybe because it showed HL2 off best, maybe because Gabe had an extra bag of doritos that afternoon!

Point is, it's no use discussing why they didn't do it 'better'. Hell, why didn't they set up a playable demo? That would have shown it off real good. But they didn't, and they probably have a good reason, because they showed a pre-recorded demo.

I know all we can do is speculate atm, but the 'why?' topic is pointless imho.
[/rant]

 

[Aknot]

Bunny,
WHY not? Why cant I ask why out loud?

As for you Xtasy0 if you do not like the route of the thread and the way we are discussing a topic keep your nose out of it. The people here are having a nice civil discussion. Form nice polite well thought responses or better yet just shut up. People complain that their is to much "crap" in here and comments like yours is the reason why. WHY come in here, disturbing a good, civil conversation by cursing and telling people to get over it?

Bunny,
Again I say why because I care. I say why and people (at least the intelligent ones) give a response back and that sparks a whole new conversation. If we do not ask why now we may not get a chance to ask why later and not make a difference until "next" game.

I also come form the Americas Army forums where the Devs frequent the boards and actually converse with the "regular joes". I guess Im spoiled a little.

Rant,
I dont remember. Its all specualtion on my part as I think I deleted the first set of movies for the better high quality ones. Maybe I should DL them again and write down everything everyone says. (that last part was a joke people, humor what a concept)

 

[Parasite]

Aknot, During E3 Valve's(ATIs) booth had a line nearly 4 hours long...they could only fit about a dozen people into that demo room. They had approx 35-45 minute presentation, they had the remaining part of an hour to re-set everything and hustle in a new group. They had to do this about 10 times per day, and on the last day of E3, when attendance was about half what it was the other days...they still had over an hour long line. They didnt have time to demonstrate EVERYTHING...let alone do it all twice to prove a point only YOU are trying to make. They also used a pre-recorded demo, and a pre-written presentation for the demo, wich BTW is far more porfessional than what you are suggesting. Its pretty important to make sure everyone at in that booth for those 40 minutes had the same experience.

Rant, see above, people were obviously impressed...the reveiws were off the charts and theyre booth was bursting. Its funny that we like to question in hindsight, but at the time we never questioned anything.
Valve mentioned the Demo was pre-recorded and played back for the E3 audience. No, Valve never once ****ing said anything was or wasnt scripted. The MOST they said is that they had advanced AI capabilities. They never even said they were using that capability...jump to your own ****ing conclusions. People on these forums like to jump on the stupidity band wagon. Noone ever read an interveiw, watched a video or saw a statement where Valve said the E3 demo wasnt scripted, or boasting about the AI more than I mentoined above...people have a stupid thought, or think they remember something and they run with it. And people here are too stupid to think for themselves and try to see if the information is true or not.

//etit: typo

 

[Aknot]

Parasite,
Then why have these forums? You people crack me up. These forums are here for us to discuss things. If we all had the same.....how do you put it: own ****ing conclusions it would be quite boring around here. Why dont you get off your high horse thinking that all is perfect and realize maybe people like to question things when they are not fully explained? See you are the one not thinking for yourself. You are taking everything at face value. Why is the sky blue? and answer from you would appear to be either because it is shut up or because I read it from Valve. Maybe that is not the answer i was looking for. Maybe the answer I was looking for was a little more in depth. Maybe I was just sparking cnversation.

Here I will ask you since you seem to know it all. Why didnt they have enough time? They "restricted" everything else why not drop the total and show more? Why didnt they show less to show more people? Wait you dont know everything. Better yet when you asked "Why" when growing up your parents told "Because I said so" and you accepted that and now it has been ingrained. (not attacking your parent or guardian just using it as an example as to why you dont have a more open mind to other suggestions).

But again: people here are too stupid to think for themselves I AM THINKING FOR MYSELF that is why I question. So I can forumlate my own opinion. YOU on the other hand are taking it at face value and not thinking for yourself making yourself per your own words.....stupid.

Dont like it go away. We can question and specualte all we want.

 

[Parasite]

See heres the problem...this point you want to prove doesnt matter to Valve because they never said it. Plain and simple...youve jumped to conclusions with no basis in fact. Why would they change anything to show the AI wasnt scripted? They never ****ing said it wasnt.

//also, personal attacks are uncalled for...I can deal with a bit of name calling and cussing, but dont pretend for a second that you know enough to psycho-analyze anyone while you sit in front of a computer arguing over bullshit.

 

[Aknot]

And they never said it was not. (or did they and I missed it?) So we just sit here? Or we sit here and discuss it? Either way we still should be able to discuss why they did or why they did not without someone coming in telling us we are stupid wrong shutup. Even if they came to me and said WE DID IT THIS WAY AKNOT. I would, if I had a different idea or view on it ask why. They either never answer and "we" speculate or they answer and I question more or I get an answer that qwells my curiosity.

 

[Aknot]

I was using it as an example (thats why I put the clip of **(not attacking your parent or guardian just using it as an example as to why you dont have a more open mind to other suggestions). ** not psyco analyzing you. Lighten up Francis. (from a movie I dont know if your name is Francis or not just trying to lighten the mood.)

 

[Brian Damage]

Back and forth, back and forth.