Socialism might be neccasery for the future

[HunterSeeker]

For the survival of ANY society.

I was thinking that the job avalibility might change dramatically as technology progresses. I am thinking that once we manage to create super intelligent robots the amount of job opportunitys might drastically reduce, as these machines might replace every factory worker, every office worker, every cab/bus/truck driver etc... why should an employer pay a worker when he can buy a robot who are cheaper (in the long term at least), dosent require "benefits" AND does the job better.

So the choice for countries like USA might have to chose to either screw most of the low and middle class, and a little bit of the upper class (most likely resulting in a revolution attempt) or change its politics drastically to either become socialistic, outlaw sush robots or some other soloution.

 

[el Chi]

Interesting. Very interesting. Personally, I think a hefty dose of Socialism could do the US some good not necessarily for the reasons that you mention, but because there are too many people getting a raw deal whilst so many have more money than they could ever spend in their lives. It's obscene.

 

[Razor]

We should just abolish currency.

 

[KoreBolteR]

why cant the whole world have one currency *sigh*

 

[el Chi]

Well, people are opposed enough to the Euro...

 

[Icarusintel]

Socialism can;t work on a global scale, and last i checked there's plenty of machines in the workplace doing jobs people could be doing and unemployment has yet to skyrocket, I think jobs for people will still be safe, they'll just be different jobs, we'll still need human brains for management positions and controlling the robots, and as of right now there's no robots that can work that well

 

[burner69]

I'd like to see socialism work. All it really involves is shortening the gap between the higher class and the lower class, if we had a vote, I'm sure the majority of people would vote to see it happen - it's just that the majority don't have the power or the wealth to have the means to do anything about it.

Something dramatic has to happen to get us into socialism. Like, perhaps, a country-wide strike, ignoring all the crap that countrie's leaders and the media spew out to keep people dumb about real issues (eg terror alerts, celeb news).

I think if all the lower classes got together and got proactive, protesting, whatever, then socialism would e achievable. The thing is, is it'd be SUCH an effort, risk their jobs, risk imprisonment etc, and after all that it might not work. The majority don't really know much about socialism, and those that do are likely to just not believe it can happen.

It's much nicer to put up with what you've got, than to make a big fuss, raising the stakes, for something better, that might not be.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Socialism can;t work on a global scale, and last i checked there's plenty of machines in the workplace doing jobs people could be doing and unemployment has yet to skyrocket, I think jobs for people will still be safe, they'll just be different jobs, we'll still need human brains for management positions and controlling the robots, and as of right now there's no robots that can work that well

I am talking about the future when robots dosent need to be controlled, there are robots just to maintain other robots and they do it almost flawlessly.

Works for humans would still exist, but not enogh of them.

Keep in mind we are not there yet.

And socialism can indeed work on a global scale, even if only when capitalism would mean the majority of the people being in a not so good position.

 

[Bodacious]

Why do pepole hate the rich so much?

 

[CptStern]

because as is often the case the rich make their money on the blood and sweat of the poor ..I'm not talking about the soccer mom who lives in the million dollar home, drives a lexus SUV (because she needs a utility vehicle with her grueling lifestyle) cuz her husband happens to own 3 starbucks franchises ..I'm talking big business and corporations that exploit the working class and poor

 

[Tr0n]

because as is often the case the rich make their money on the blood and sweat of the poor ..I'm not talking about the soccer mom who lives in the million dollar home, drives a lexus SUV (because she needs a utility vehicle with her grueling lifestyle) cuz her husband happens to own 3 starbucks franchises ..I'm talking big business and corporations that exploit the working class and poor

Also....send people to wars just for money.

 

[Bodacious]

The richest people in America already pay 80% of the taxes, and you want them to pay more?

 

[satch919]

because as is often the case the rich make their money on the blood and sweat of the poor ..I'm not talking about the soccer mom who lives in the million dollar home, drives a lexus SUV (because she needs a utility vehicle with her grueling lifestyle) cuz her husband happens to own 3 starbucks franchises ..I'm talking big business and corporations that exploit the working class and poor

Exactly.

Not all rich people are bad and are out to screw the working class but there's enough. Look at Enron, Wal-Mart, WorldCom, Adelphia, Halliburton, K-Mart, etc. These are multimillion/billion dollar companies who, in the case of Wal-Mart, won't even provide its workers with decent benefits. Sure, they offer benefits but none of the workers can actually buy into it. The CEO's and top level people are all benfiting from screwing over their own people/workforce. Sickening.

 

[CptStern]

The richest people in America already pay 80% of the taxes, and you want them to pay more?

source?


so you're saying that 80% of the total money from income taxes from every american in america is made up of the contributions of less than 10% of americans?

 

[satch919]

The richest people in America already pay 80% of the taxes, and you want them to pay more?

If they're already paying 80% and its not hurting them, why not up it to 85%. These people are billionares with a few billion coming in every year. I think they can pay a higher tax rate. :|

 

[Bodacious]

source?


so you're saying that 80% of the total money from income taxes from every american in america is made up of the contributions of less than 10% of americans?

I'll find it but know this. There are a lot more to taxes than income taxes. Corporations pay income taxes as well.

 

[Tr0n]

They could pay 100% of the taxes and would still be making lots of money.

 

[Bodacious]

Ok here it is, from the Congressional Budget Office.

Source

Page 18, Effective Federal Tax Rates and Shares Under 2000 Tax Law, Based on 2001
Incomes, by Income Category, 2001 to 2014

Look at the table Share of Individual Income Tax Liabilities

Look at the Highest Quintile, (top 20% of all taxpayers)

79.5% In 2001
79.1% in 2002
78.7% In 2003

Oh wait, that is table 3, the year 2000 tax laws.

Here is table 2, under current law: Page 17

Effective Federal Tax Rates and Shares Under Current Tax Law, Based on 2001
Incomes, by Income Category, 2001 to 2014

Share of Individual Income Tax Liabilities

Highest Quintile 2001, 82.5; 2002, 81.7; 2003, 83.0; 2004, 82.1.

 

[jverne]

Ok here it is, from the Congressional Budget Office.

Source

Page 18, Effective Federal Tax Rates and Shares Under 2000 Tax Law, Based on 2001
Incomes, by Income Category, 2001 to 2014

Look at the table Share of Individual Income Tax Liabilities

Look at the Highest Quintile, (top 20% of all taxpayers)

79.5% In 2001
79.1% in 2002
78.7% In 2003

So howcome they are still filthy rich??? it because these taxes are only on paper!! the rich define the rules, do you really think they would harm themselves??? stupid!

 

[CptStern]

219 + 95687 carry the one subdivide the gross from the net :rolling: ...hmmmm that's why I hire an accountant during tax time

ok so explain to me the difference between Effective Individual Income Tax Rate and Share of Individual Income Tax Liabilities ..cuz those numbers range from 16% to 79% ..but I dont see the distinction between the two. Seems to me that the Effective Individual Income Tax Rate is the correct one, but I could be wrong

 

[Bodacious]

Effective Individual Income Tax Rate is the rate at which people are taxed. The more you make the more they take. So, according to the CBO's table, they(the gov) took 26.8% of the Highest Quintile's income in 2001.

Share of Individual Income Tax Liabilities how much of the total income tax were paid by what quintile. So, according to the table, the top 20% paid 80% of the income taxes.

That is how I understand it anyways.

 

[Bodacious]

So howcome they are still filthy rich??? it because these taxes are only on paper!! the rich define the rules, do you really think they would harm themselves??? stupid!

All of these figures cover past years and are measured off of income tax that the IRS received. The CBO didn't just make this stuff up.

 

[Tr0n]

Why the hell do we need a IRS anyways?

 

[Bodacious]

Why the hell do we need a IRS anyways?

To regulate the collection of taxes.

 

[Bodacious]

They could pay 100% of the taxes and would still be making lots of money.

But that isn't fair. That would mean 80% of the population didn't pay taxes at all.

 

[Tr0n]

Ok....question is do we need the IRS for that?Would there be an alternative?

 

[Bodacious]

Ok....question is do we need the IRS for that?Would there be an alternative?

Well, who would collect taxes if the IRS didn't exist?

 

[Tr0n]

I dunno...just saying why not make a better tax collection agency or somethin.

Seems like lots of people (adults mainly) hate the IRS. :|

 

[satch919]

What about regressive taxation?

The rich are allowed to write off all kinds of stuff relating to their business. If they invest loads of money in stocks and such, I believe they can write that off. As long and you're 'incorporated' you can bypass a lot of the taxation. Say you have a business and it operates from time to time from your home. Maybe you need a car or nice suits for your business. You can get that written off as well. Monetary donations can also be written off. Do you really think the rich would donate tons of money if they weren't able to write it off? Sure, they get taxed higher than us but they don't pay all of it. They can get past a lot of it simply from write offs. Therefore, the rich keep a huge chunk of what they earn.

Who ends up picking up the tab? The middle and lower class.

Why can't the poor and middle class do that? We don't have the money to buy into high risk/high price business ventures. Nor can we afford to give loads of our money to charity.

These rules are in place to "spur business growth". However, the rich and knowledgable take advantage of these laws. Besides, who writes the laws? The rich and powerful.

 

[Bodacious]

I dunno...just saying why not make a better tax collection agency or somethin.

Seems like lots of people (adults mainly) hate the IRS. :|

The only answer to eliminating the IRS is a national sales tax and that hurts the poor the most, so as much as some pople might want it, that will never happen.

 

[Bodacious]

What about regressive taxation?

The rich are allowed to write off all kinds of stuff relating to their business. If they invest loads of money in stocks and such, I believe they can write that off. As long and you're 'incorporated' you can bypass a lot of the taxation. Say you have a business and it operates from time to time from your home. Maybe you need a car or nice suits for your business. You can get that written off as well. Monetary donations can also be written off. Do you really think the rich would donate tons of money if they weren't able to write it off? Sure, they get taxed higher than us but they don't pay all of it. They can get past a lot of it simply from write offs. Therefore, the rich keep a huge chunk of what they earn.

Do you know what write off is? It means, write off as a business expense. I am a small business owner so I know all about this and it isnt' as bad as you think. If pepople write off a bunch of stuff then they get audited and thrown in prison. Whatever is 'written off' is perfectly legal. That is the benefit they get for taking the risk of starting their own business.

Who ends up picking up the tab? The middle and lower class.

I have already proved how the top 20% pay 80% of the income taxes so that is wrong. And even then, the other 80% don't have to worry about corporate incom tax, for the most part.

Why can't the poor and middle class do that? We don't have the money to buy into high risk/high price business ventures. Nor can we afford to give loads of our money to charity.

Do you know how much it costs to start a business? In texas it is $9. Yes, you need merchandise to get started, but if you have good credit and a good idea then you can get a loan and do whatever you want as long as you pay your sales taxes.

These rules are in place to "spur business growth". However, the rich and knowledgable take advantage of these laws. Besides, who writes the laws? The rich and powerful.

And who doesn't take advantage of these laws when they have the same opportunities everyone else does? The people who complain.

Nothing is stopping any american citizen from opening their own business and taking advantage of the laws except their own choices.

Business ownership is a big risk and hard work, but if you have the ambition and the time it is easy.

 

[satch919]

Do you know what write off is? It means, write off as a business expense. I am a small business owner so I know all about this and it isnt' as bad as you think. If pepople write off a bunch of stuff then they get audited and thrown in prison. Whatever is 'written off' is perfectly legal. That is the benefit they get for taking the risk of starting their own business.



I have already proved how the top 20% pay 80% of the income taxes so that is wrong. And even then, the other 80% don't have to worry about corporate incom tax, for the most part.



Do you know how much it costs to start a business? In texas it is $9. Yes, you need merchandise to get started, but if you have good credit and a good idea then you can get a loan and do whatever you want as long as you pay your sales taxes.



And who doesn't take advantage of these laws when they have the same opportunities everyone else does? The people who complain.

Nothing is stopping any american citizen from opening their own business and taking advantage of the laws except their own choices.

Business ownership is a big risk and hard work, but if you have the ambition and the time it is easy.

Thats what Im talking about. You could say that you need your nice suits and cars and such for your business. Nice suits to keep yourself looking nice while selling a product. A nice car for traveling for business. You could write those expenses off if you wanted. Business owners have the right to do that, its just that some people abuse that privilege. You may not do that as a business owner but that doesn't mean that other don't. For example, my father works at a place that requires that he wears a uniform. Every once in a while he needs a new uniform. So, on his own time, he goes and pics one up with his own money. However, he can write that off because its part of the business/work that he does. He can also write off the cost of his shoes, socks, equipment etc.

You're a small business owner. What about those expenses for a large business owner? Perhaps you would need bigger and better things to run your business? Those things that you need could all be written off legally if it pertains to your business. Just because someone runs the risk of getting audited doesn't mean that they don't do it. It happens. I know that most of it is legal. Im just stressing the point that people abuse the system and it seemingly goes unnoticed. Look at all the scandals involving Corporate America. These people are filthy rich but yet they still screw over their employees and the system.

The laws were made by rich people for rich people.


Yes, they might pay 80% but do you see them losing their jobs because they can't keep up with the taxes? What? They might not be able to afford another mansion or yacht this year? While me and you are eating off of paper plates, these people are eating filet mingnon with gold rimmed plates and the finest silverware. Their pockets aren't feeling the squeeze. What the corporate income tax up to?

The middle class is being squelched out.

What i don't like is the way that its being handled. A man steals 50 bucks from some old lady and does time. A CEO and his company steals millions from thousands of people and what do they get? A slap on the wrist and a fine. Not only that but they get their invested money when they leave the company. These people should be locked up for life.


Ok, it takes 9 dollars to start a business. What does that mean?Out of all the people that start a business, how many of them are actually successful and are taking in hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars? In California, the cost to start a business is probably a lot higher. The cost goes up even more if you plan on getting a nice spot of land. Location, location, location. What regular Joe has money to sell a product, buy some land on which to sell that product and money left over to pay employees, rent, electricity etc? I know I don't nor do a lot of other people that I know. If it was so easy to maintain a business why isn't there more millionares? Why is the poverty line increasing?

It takes a substantial amount of time and money to start a successfull business. Even then, there's no guarantee that it will be a success. So, as im sure you know, there's a lot more to it than just paying $9 and opening a business.

How can we take advantage of these benefits if we don't have the startup ability to do so anyways. We're giving handouts to the rich little else to the middle class. The rich are already rolling in money so why continue to give them breaks? It has to be done in moderation.

You know its a big risk and hard work but even if you have put your blood and sweat into something, it still might not work out. People don't say, "okay, i'll buy your product because i know how hard you worked on it." It doesn't work that way.

 

[Bodacious]

Thats what Im talking about. You could say that you need your nice suits and cars and such for your business. Nice suits to keep yourself looking nice while selling a product. A nice car for traveling for business. You could write those expenses off if you wanted. Business owners have the right to do that, its just that some people abuse that privilege. You may not do that as a business owner but that doesn't mean that other don't. For example, my father works at a place that requires that he wears a uniform. Every once in a while he needs a new uniform. So, on his own time, he goes and pics one up with his own money. However, he can write that off because its part of the business/work that he does. He can also write off the cost of his shoes, socks, equipment etc.

You're a small business owner. What about those expenses for a large business owner? Perhaps you would need bigger and better things to run your business? Those things that you need could all be written off legally if it pertains to your business. Just because someone runs the risk of getting audited doesn't mean that they don't do it. It happens. I know that most of it is legal. Im just stressing the point that people abuse the system and it seemingly goes unnoticed. Look at all the scandals involving Corporate America. These people are filthy rich but yet they still screw over their employees and the system.

The laws were made by rich people for rich people.

So how do you want to fix the system? So far all you have done is complained and not offered up a solution. Even with all the write offs business owners still pay a great deal of taxes on their income, a great deal more than poor people do.

Yes, they might pay 80% but do you see them losing their jobs because they can't keep up with the taxes? What? They might not be able to afford another mansion or yacht this year? While me and you are eating off of paper plates, these people are eating filet mingnon with gold rimmed plates and the finest silverware. Their pockets aren't feeling the squeeze. What the corporate income tax up to?

Show me one person who lost their job because they "couldn't keep up with the taxes." What does that even mean?

What i don't like is the way that its being handled. A man steals 50 bucks from some old lady and does time. A CEO and his company steals millions from thousands of people and what do they get? A slap on the wrist and a fine. Not only that but they get their invested money when they leave the company. These people should be locked up for life.

Source? The enron CEO(or it could have been the accountant) got locked up for 10 years without possibility of parole. A lot of these other guys are getting caught as well, and its not cause they had too many write offs either, it is because they deliberatly lied about their income so they wouldn't go bankrupt.

Ok, it takes 9 dollars to start a business. What does that mean?Out of all the people that start a business, how many of them are actually successful and are taking in hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars? In California, the cost to start a business is probably a lot higher. The cost goes up even more if you plan on getting a nice spot of land. Location, location, location. What regular Joe has money to sell a product, buy some land on which to sell that product and money left over to pay employees, rent, electricity etc? I know I don't nor do a lot of other people that I know. If it was so easy to maintain a business why isn't there more millionares? Why is the poverty line increasing?

It takes a substantial amount of time and money to start a successfull business. Even then, there's no guarantee that it will be a success. So, as im sure you know, there's a lot more to it than just paying $9 and opening a business.

Well no shit it takes a lot more than $9. Reread what I wrote. If you have good credit and a good idea you can get your business started. You have to start from scratch. Its not open a store one day a millionaire tomorrow. The people that are millionaires worked hard for their money, and they deserve every penny.

That is the risk of starting a business, and you reap the rewards of starting one. Thats capitalism.

How can we take advantage of these benefits if we don't have the startup ability to do so anyways. We're giving handouts to the rich little else to the middle class. The rich are already rolling in money so why continue to give them breaks? It has to be done in moderation.

You know its a big risk and hard work but even if you have put your blood and sweat into something, it still might not work out. People don't say, "okay, i'll buy your product because i know how hard you worked on it." It doesn't work that way.

Thats the risk. The ones who are successful prosper and the ones that don't have to try again. If you don't have the capitol to start, find the capitol. Everyone has the same opportuniteis that bill gates does.

 

[burner69]

Well no shit it takes a lot more than $9. Reread what I wrote. If you have good credit and a good idea you can get your business started. You have to start from scratch. Its not open a store one day a millionaire tomorrow. The people that are millionaires worked hard for their money, and they deserve every penny.

Starting your own buisness does in NO WAY get you up to the standard of higher class, buisness owning, top 20%.

I'd hope we were talking about the really rich people. The one's who open buisnesses in third world countries because labour is cheap and there are few laws about quality of the workplace, beating employees etc. The one's who blatently break the law then just give certain people special "benefits" and it all get's swept under the carpet.

The top richest people own more money than several countries put together, it wasn't done through hard work (or though it may have begun as such) it's done through avoiding taxes, ripping people off, cutting corners and jepodising customer and employee safety.

You're telling me that companies like Nike, who have children working 10-12 hour shifts in appalling conditions, being regularly beaten if they slow the work rate down, and being paid f**k all an hour (a couple of pennies) - you're telling me they don't deserve to get taxed? Please. Mr Jones busting his balls down at Wal Mart, or Johnny the Marine at war deserves tax cuts, the rich are rich enough as it is, and the majority are a bunch of money grabbing, arrogant idiots.

EDIT: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=390260 it seems that large companies pay around 30% tax - so if that is 80% of the total in the country... well... they're too dam rich.

 

[CptStern]

The people that are millionaires worked hard for their money, and they deserve every penny

come on are you telling me the profession of a stock broker is worth more than a police officer or teacher? ..man a dumptruck driver working for the city makes more than a teacher does. There's far too big a gap between the poor and the rich, hell, there's too big of a gap between the middle class and the rich.

 

[Bodacious]

Starting your own buisness does in NO WAY get you up to the standard of higher class, buisness owning, top 20%.

Then how did the top 20% get there? The lottery?

I'd hope we were talking about the really rich people.

The top 20% make at least $200,000 or above, I believe, not sure on that.

The one's who open buisnesses in third world countries because labour is cheap and there are few laws about quality of the workplace, beating employees etc. The one's who blatently break the law then just give certain people special "benefits" and it all get's swept under the carpet.

Imports are different than income taxes. Profit and income taxes is the only thing we are talking about here. If other countries allow abuse of their citizens then thats their problem, not ours. Finding ways to maximize profit within the legal limits of the law isn't a crime.

The top richest people own more money than several countries put together, it wasn't done through hard work (or though it may have begun as such) it's done through avoiding taxes, ripping people off, cutting corners and jepodising customer and employee safety.

Source?

Bill gates, steve jobs, bill clinton, Forbes, Donald Trump, Rockefeller, all bust their ass 10 times as much as your average welfare recipiant. And somewhere in the past they start from scratch or had their empires handed to them from someone who did.

You're telling me that companies like Nike, who have children working 10-12 hour shifts in appalling conditions, being regularly beaten if they slow the work rate down, and being paid f**k all an hour (a couple of pennies) - you're telling me they don't deserve to get taxed?

Where did I say they don't deserve to be taxed? They pay their taxes to the letter of the law.

Please. Mr Jones busting his balls down at Wal Mart, or Johnny the Marine at war deserves tax cuts, the rich are rich enough as it is, and the majority are a bunch of money grabbing, arrogant idiots.

And the minority (the rich) pay the most in income taxes. You want to argue that the rich got a tax break? Look in my source above. The top 20% paid more than they did under clinton.

 

[Bodacious]

come on are you telling me the profession of a stock broker is worth more than a police officer or teacher? ..man a dumptruck driver working for the city makes more than a teacher does. There's far too big a gap between the poor and the rich, hell, there's too big of a gap between the middle class and the rich.

Look at the stock broker. He probably invested a great deal more in education than a police officer did. As it stands, with military service, it takes no college education whatsoever to become a police officer.

College professors make more than a high school teacher does because they invested in a college education, more than 4 years worth, got their masters.

Its not the governments fault or the Rich's fault you are poor. It is your poor decisions in life that make you what you are.

Condoleeza(sp?) is a perfect example of someone doing well for themselves. The guy who started the Wendys restaurants (Dave) is an even better example.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Finding ways to maximize profit within the legal limits of the law isn't a crime.

But is it right?

 

[Bodacious]

But is it right?

Depends on who you ask.

 

[CptStern]

I have already proved how the top 20% pay 80% of the income taxes ..

there's something odd with those numbers, maybe you can help me understand, but how is it possible that 10% of 250 million people pays 80% of the revenue generated through income tax? if we say for argument's sake, the income tax total per year is 1 billion dollars; 80% or 800 million dollars of that is paid by 25 million people? and 200 million of the 1 billion collected is paid by 225 million people? that would mean that 25 million people a year are paying over 3 million in taxes per year? that makes no sense if you say the top 10% makes over $200,000 a year