Socialism might be neccasery for the future

[HunterSeeker]

Its a common misunderstanding that socialism means totalarian goverment, but I guess you have never heard of democratic socialism.

 

[GhostFox]

I guess you have never heard of democratic socialism.

I have...it is as real as Santa Claus too...it's called a myth.

 

[HunterSeeker]

I have...it is as real as Santa Claus too...it's called a myth.

Then how come swedens, you know the country I live in, party are called the democratic socialists?

Trust me they exist, you have just been brainwashed into not beliviening it.

 

[Bodacious]

Then how come swedens, you know the country I live in, party are called the democratic socialists?

Trust me they exist, you have just been brainwashed into not beliviening it.

Because they aren't true socialists. There are still rich people there isn't there? People can work whatever job they choise, can they not?

From the CIA world factbook:

Aided by peace and neutrality for the whole 20th century, Sweden has achieved an enviable standard of living under a mixed system of high-tech capitalism and extensive welfare benefits.

Democratic Socialist might be the description, but the place isn't true socialism.

 

[firemachine69]

source?


so you're saying that 80% of the total money from income taxes from every american in america is made up of the contributions of less than 10% of americans?

That is quite high, but I do know that a large part of the taxes in Canada are paid by the top 10% richest people here. Did a research project on it.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Democratic Socialist might be the description, but the place isn't true socialism.

It is not pure socialism no. But anything taken to the extreme is bad most of the time. Pure capitalism? Well I cant think of the middle ages as anything else.

 

[GhostFox]

Socialism is in itself an extremist form. It will corrupt more and more until it is pure. As true socialism goes Sweden isn't anywhere close. But it moves closer all the time, and I would never live there because of the govt. That is not a knock against the country, I have family from there and still there. It is very nice. However, the rights you have to surrender are unacceptable. If you don't want your kids growing up in the equivilant of Cold War era Russia, the time for armed uprising is now.

Oh, and don't get so hung up on the "democratic" thing. Hitler was "elected". So was Saddam. Just because someone labels something doesn't mean it is correct.

 

[GhostFox]

According to the Globe and Mail, The average family of 4 in Canada pays 54% of their annual income into taxes.

Terrifying, isn't it?

 

[burner69]

Socialism is:

The political system that centers on the needs of the society as a whole. Sometimes used as an alternative name for communism or as a derogatory term for opponents of capitalism. In fact it is a very wide term that can accomodate quite diverse ideologies.

Depending on the context, the term socialism may refer either to these ideologies or any of their many lineal descendants. While these cover a very broad range of views, they have in common a belief that feudal and capitalist societies are run for the benefit of a small economic elite and that society should be run for the common good. "Socialist" ideologies tend to emphasize economic cooperation over economic competition; virtually all envision some sort of economic planning (many, but by no means all, favor central planning). All advocate placing at least some of the means of production -- and at least some of the distribution of goods and services -- into collective or cooperative ownership.

Shortening the gap between rich and poor? I see no mention of total evil government control - that sounds like decades old anti-russian propaganda to me.

 

[GhostFox]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=socialism

so·cial·ism
n.
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

What in there do you see as a good thing?

I see no mention of total evil government control

Apparently you cannot read between the lines. Actually just read the lines.

 

[Sainku]

Once we have enough robots to do all our deeds, we have completed life and will have no need for currency or government. We can just sit on our asses and eat all day long.

 

[HunterSeeker]

It is very nice. However, the rights you have to surrender are unacceptable.

Like what?

Oh, and don't get so hung up on the "democratic" thing. Hitler was "elected". So was Saddam. Just because someone labels something doesn't mean it is correct.

IIRC hitlers election was not rigged, he just used a LOT of propaganda to get elected. Also I see no reason to belive that our elections are rigged. We dont have any majority goverment after all.

 

[GhostFox]

I have to run, but I didn't mean to suggest that Sweden's election was rigged. My point was that you can call anything a Democracy, it doesn't make it one.

 

[The Monkey]

I'm with ya on that one. Didn't someone here say Socialism is bed partners with communism? just a step away, never further than arm reach. Seems to me that its a rather old ideal, started about the time of the hunters and gathers.

Oh don't listen to me, why can't we all me more like the smurfs?



The Patriot "Freedom is not Free"

There is nothing wrong with communism...even if don't support it, I don't see all the hatred against it. And to comepare communism to facism, and even prefer facism, is just pure ignorance.

 

[GhostFox]

And to comepare communism to facism, and even prefer facism, is just pure ignorance.

Actually that statement there is ignorance. You are ignorant of communism, so you think it is acceptable. Many people are. You aren't alone. That thought terrfies me.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Actually that statement there is ignorance. You are ignorant of communism, so you think it is acceptable. Many people are. You aren't alone. That thought terrfies me.

The sovjets was not real communists.

Thats a hint for you.

 

[GhostFox]

You don't have any clue what communism is.

That is a hint for you.

 

[HunterSeeker]

You don't have any clue what communism is.

That is a hint for you.

If you think you know so much about communism can you please explain then?

 

[GhostFox]

You think of the downside of communism as a Russia like situation. And you blame the poverty on it not being a true communist state.

I recognize that communism is an ideal that steals your humanity. The more pure a communism is, the more terrifying it it. Total equality is horror.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Total equality is horror.

And why is that? Do you need to feel totaly superior to another person?

 

[GhostFox]

And why is that? Do you need to feel totaly superior to another person?

No. But I do need the ability to have hopes and dreams. To have great aspirations, or lesser ones. I need the abilty have great triumphs, and failures. I need to be better then some people at some things, and worse then most at many others. I need individuality, and free will. I need choices and consequences.

Without these things, I would no longer be a human being.

 

[HunterSeeker]

So you are saying that money is the only hope and dreams you can have?

What about love? About anything else? I have found that whenever I create something I can be proud of, it is a great feeling and I havent made any money from that anyway.

Also without genetic engineering total equality in the way you describe it as is impossible to reach, only economic equality.

 

[clarky003]

well I dont care what anyone thinks communisim , demoracey, or socialism is like on 'paper', its the human element that mutates them when they are practically introduced. so its not actually the method that doesnt work, its people... isnt it a bit obvious that its not the methods that dont work, its us.. so wouldnt it be far more wise to concentrate on improving ourselves to improve whatever system you have..

and all this about socialisim being evil isnt true, thats the kind of response you get off a hardcore capitalist, like a man from the west critising a showlin monk, or Buddah for the way he lives his life, assuming he would be better off with electricity, cars, and other products, closed minded to the monks peace and happiness. different types Socialism dont work if you dont have the correct kind of thinking.. same goes for most , but it has more emphasis on selflessness, which isnt a bad thing atall, just some people think that would impede on their freedom? to have a base goal for the race, Its better for everyone if you think about it on a broad basis. It would mean we wouldnt be held back by corporate entities drip feeding the public with technology to maximise profit's.

im saying socialism on paper is sound, in reality it most likely wont work, so you could mutate it for the best, but really its more for people of the future, who perhaps are less self obsorbed and critical of their particular life, and more aware of everyones needs.. better balance basically, but that all depends on education and how our brain and thinking evolve.

 

[GhostFox]

I have found that whenever I create something I can be proud of, it is a great feeling

Why do you think money is always involved? Let me try to boil down communism to its core for you. Complete and total equality on every level. I'll give you an over-simplified example.

In a truly communist society;

If you were a gifted athlete as coordinated with one arm as most people are with two, then they would cut off one of your arms. Otherwise you would have an unfair advantage over everyone else who was not as coordinated as you. Why would you be so selfish as to want to be a better athlete then others? Do you hate humanity?

If you were a brilliant artist and painted a picture, it would be destroyed. After all, why would you be so selfish as to create something beautiful? Do you know how bad that makes all the lesser talented people in the world feel? Why do you hate people so much?

If you were a famous furniture maker, you could no longer higher appretices with carpentry talent. That wouldn't be fair to all the people needing jobs who aren't carpenters. So you have to hire people who don't know what they are doing. It is only fair. It is selfish of you to want to create things that make you better then others. Someone with evil ideas like yours needs to be re-educated. You capitalist scum disgust me.


Do you understand true communism now? Economic equality is the least part of it. We are talking about total social equality in every way. Equalization of the lowest common denominator. The only way to make people truly equal is to make all people sub-human equally. That is why communism/socialism scares me. What scares me even more is that there are so many reasonably intelligent people in the world who can't grasp the truth of it.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Seriusly. Thats not anything I have heard about communism at all!

What I ever heard is that its pretty much that everyone owns everything (well at least the means of production) and shares everything as well. If you are a farmer you distribute the food you produce and you get clothes, electricity and anything anything else you need. Communism is in fact not pro-dictators, its actually closer to anarchy as when the people are mature enogh for it there will be no need for goverment. Thats the theory anyway.

If your view on communism is different then ok, but its still just a label, its what you mean when you say communism thats important.

 

[burner69]

Why do you think money is always involved? Let me try to boil down communism to its core for you. Complete and total equality on every level. I'll give you an over-simplified example.

In a truly communist society;

If you were a gifted athlete as coordinated with one arm as most people are with two, then they would cut off one of your arms. Otherwise you would have an unfair advantage over everyone else who was not as coordinated as you. Why would you be so selfish as to want to be a better athlete then others? Do you hate humanity?

If you were a brilliant artist and painted a picture, it would be destroyed. After all, why would you be so selfish as to create something beautiful? Do you know how bad that makes all the lesser talented people in the world feel? Why do you hate people so much?

If you were a famous furniture maker, you could no longer higher appretices with carpentry talent. That wouldn't be fair to all the people needing jobs who aren't carpenters. So you have to hire people who don't know what they are doing. It is only fair. It is selfish of you to want to create things that make you better then others. Someone with evil ideas like yours needs to be re-educated. You capitalist scum disgust me.


Do you understand true communism now? Economic equality is the least part of it. We are talking about total social equality in every way. Equalization of the lowest common denominator. The only way to make people truly equal is to make all people sub-human equally. That is why communism/socialism scares me. What scares me even more is that there are so many reasonably intelligent people in the world who can't grasp the truth of it.

WTF!?!?!?
Sorry I p*ssed myself reading that, it's bo**ocks.

Communism is economic equality. Working together, not competing against. Something I don't believe the west is ready for yet.
Yet do you honestly believe that in the future if we end up communist if you've got a good right arm, they'll saw your left arm off? Surely then everyone else has an advantage over you when it comes to opening beer bottles - quick! Hack everyone elses arm off.... but wait... some guy can open a beer bottle with his teeth, remove his lower jaw! In a year the human race would be a head a body and a foot or something.
You're applying capitilist ideals of eye for an eye to communist ideals of equality. It dosen't work like that.

The whole point in communism is for all people to have equality, you don't need to dream about climbing the ladder at work, you can start dreaming about things more spiritually rewarding. Learn the guitar after work, read some poems, or just go down the pub and get trashed - whatever. Anyone who can't sacrifice the idea that money is the only thing to aspire for is well and truely locked in the capitilist mind-set, and until we pass through socialism, either through dictatorship, or more likely political propaganda (if bush can make a good number of Americans believe lies about terrorists, Saddam etc, I'm sure we could manage socialism). Pass a few laws to stop the rich running away without the rest of us, and get to work on working together, not against eachother.

But it needs to be VERY well thought out before its implimented. Trouble is, the people who should do this have everything to lose from equality - it won't happen for a while.

 

[clarky003]

well said burner,.. capitalism satisfy's the egoic selfish tendencies, which people seem to have a lack of control of in our confused minds, (mostley because possesion and power gives materially minded people meaning to their lives), which is why its taken over and created these kinds of capitalist democracey's. its human weakness, and its spreading encaptulating through those with the want for bettering themselves materialistically, somehow giving them more power and say, over those who dont get the same chances or dont have the same intellectual prowess, being better at something than someone else should be of personal value, and shouldnt entitle you to a better life than someone who , say for instance saves lives as a doctor (perfect example are sports proffession's, some ones got their priority's mixed up) , some still ademantley believe capitalism is what is needed, and that it can create stability, but it intrudes into other peoples ways of life too much through targeting human mental weaknesses, which is alot easier to give into, but arnt nesserserily right, why western ideals cant leave well enough alone i dont know.

its all about people's perspective, aslong as people think having rich and poor is how to keep a stable society it will continue, but we all know it cant carry on forever, simply because of the severe problems that we are going to face if we carry on in this ignorant manor. History also dictates, around every 100 year's, a 'leap' or major change happens. with either the discovery of new technology, or people getting fed up of the inequality, and way of life, global road conjestion... pollution... global warming etc.

 

[The Monkey]

GhostFox, have you read the communist manifesto? No, didn't think so. One of the first things that it says is than in a communist state, all power comes from the people, therefore, Soviet, NK, Chine, Cuba etc were/are not communistic. Untill this day, there hasn't been one single communist state.I guess there never will be either, for everytime there's a revolution, there's allways some curropt leader that takes power and becomes a dictator.

 

[GhostFox]

Seriusly. Thats not anything I have heard about communism at all!

This is why you don't understand communism at all.

Communism is economic equality.

Incorrect. In communist theology economic equlaity is seen as the first step towards total social equality.

GhostFox, have you read the communist manifesto?

Yes, I own a copy actually. See above comment. I don't think you've ever really read it.

 

[The Monkey]

Yes, I own a copy actually. See above comment. I don't think you've ever really read it.

Sorry about the presumption. But if you've really read it, then howcome you can actaully think that it would better to live as a jew during the Third Reich than under communist rule? The basic ideas are that all companies should be owned by the goverment and that everybody should be treated alike. It has been a while since I read it, but I'm pretty sure that's the deal.

 

[GhostFox]

The true communist theology sees economic equality as a stepping stone to total social equality. My post before describes life in a "perfect, pure, communist" society. Anything great or exceptional is stamped out. For that reason I would rather be hated and persecuted for a reason, even a crazy one, then be made into a sub-human animal and have no hope in life simply for being a human being.

 

[burner69]

The true communist theology sees economic equality as a stepping stone to total social equality. My post before describes life in a "perfect, pure, communist" society. Anything great or exceptional is stamped out. For that reason I would rather be hated and persecuted for a reason, even a crazy one, then be made into a sub-human animal and have no hope in life simply for being a human being.

You're describing hardcore extreme fanatical communism. We would never go there, it would be impossible. As soon as limbs started being hacked off there would be a massive outcry, it would NOT HAPPEN.

Saying that is like saying that capitilist society is all about 1% of the population having all the money, and everyone slaving for them in the belief they will get rewarded, but rarely do. If you aren't compassionate about getting to the top you will starve and die, and no one will care because you had no power.

You, sir, are throwing extreme anti-communist propaganda at us.

 

[RZAL]

There is nothing wrong with communism...even if don't support it, I don't see all the hatred against it. And to comepare communism to facism, and even prefer facism, is just pure ignorance.

It’s a great ideal for the poor to believe in, the fact is we don’t live in a perfect world and if we did we wouldn’t need communism or even socialism. The problem with these philosophies are you have to give up your free will, you’re never allowed to choose you’re on way, be an individual or aspire for greatness. You’re told how to think and how to act within this pre made cast system. There is no moving forward, your tied to the community, what’s your is theirs and what’s theirs is yours. It not freedom, its surviving as a collective. History has shown us that time and time again these types of governments fail, party because government takes advantage of the weak and party because of human nature, “why should I work my butt off when others sit on theirs, we all get the same at the end of the day-attitude.

 

[GhostFox]

Saying that is like saying that capitilist society is all about 1% of the population having all the money, and everyone slaving for them in the belief they will get rewarded, but rarely do.

First of all, why do you think that that would be the result of a purely capitalist society? You eliminate govt. social programs and suddenly only 1% of the population makes any money? I agree that the rich/poor divide would increase, but at the same time so would the middle class. Incomes would rise, as much less taxes would be paid, more money spent, more jobs, less unem,ployment etc. The downside would be that unemployed/unable to be employed people would be out of luck. But to say that 1% of people would control society is rediculous. Haven't you ever heard of Adam Smith? When you do what is best for yourself, it benifits society as a whole the most. That is why socialism/communism is so flawed. By trying to help people you actually hurt them.

I'll give you an example. Studies have shown that banning panhandling actually help the homeless. How you ask? By eliminating the ability to earn money that way, it forces them to get real jobs. And yes, it does hurt some people a lot. But on the whole it decreases homelessness and the result is a net gain.

You, sir, are throwing extreme anti-communist propaganda at us.

No, I am explaining to you the truth about communist idealogy. Whether or not true communism can ever be instituted is another issue. But you do realize you are in effect saying that there are two kinds of communist outcomes. 1) Flawed Communism - USSR. Corrupt 1% of population controlls all the money and 99% of people starve on the streets. There will always be someone to abuse the system and take control. This is the preferable form. 2) True Communism - Never has existed in fact, but is a possibility if people do not fear it. Total social equality has been achieved, including all the good arm chopping, art destryoing parts of it. This is the most dangerous and potentially society destroying form of communism.

Either way, it will suck. So you support it why?

 

[burner69]

Either way, it will suck. So you support it why?

I think it's something worth trying for.

And again, you're repeating the same extreme fanatic communist stories, it is possible to greatly shorten the gap between the rich and poor without hacking off limbs.

There's little point in arguing this, as you believe communism to be evil, and I don't. I believe, like all epochs, it has the potential of doing wrong, but at the same time, more potential than most to do right.

 

[The Monkey]

It’s a great ideal for the poor to believe in, the fact is we don’t live in a perfect world and if we did we wouldn’t need communism or even socialism. The problem with these philosophies are you have to give up your free will, you’re never allowed to choose you’re on way, be an individual or aspire for greatness. You’re told how to think and how to act within this pre made cast system. There is no moving forward, your tied to the community, what’s your is theirs and what’s theirs is yours. It not freedom, its surviving as a collective. History has shown us that time and time again these types of governments fail, party because government takes advantage of the weak and party because of human nature, “why should I work my butt off when others sit on theirs, we all get the same at the end of the day-attitude.

If the people isn't happy with the communist rule, they can simly take the communist government out of power in the next election. Or the parliament could do a (don't know the name, but you know when the parliment votes weater to depose the government or not).

It's rather ironic, when I'm debating with my communist freinds about things, I'm always trying to convince them how bad communism are, and why catitalism and liberalism is better. Here I'm doing the opposite. :|

 

[GhostFox]

I think it's something worth trying for.

But why? Your best case scenario in any truly communist society is everyone being poor. Even with a benevolent leader, you will shorten the gap yes, but only by making every person dirt poor. Are you so galled by the idea of some rich people that you'd rather seem everyone be poor instead? The economics of communism don't work.

 

[burner69]

But why? Your best case scenario in any truly communist society is everyone being poor. Even with a benevolent leader, you will shorten the gap yes, but only by making every person dirt poor. Are you so galled by the idea of some rich people that you'd rather seem everyone be poor instead? The economics of communism don't work.

No no. If cash was MORE equally spread throughout society being the 'poor' would not be poor as we think of it. Minimum wage would be waaaaaay up there, far better than it is now.

I don't want everyone to get paid exactly the same no matter what job they do, I want them to get paid more if they do a demanding job - but there should be limits. The idea that the top few percent of rich peple have a large percent of the nations wealth isn't fair IMO. It needs to be addressed.

 

[GhostFox]

I read an interesting article the other day about how increasing minmum wage actually makes people poorer.

Do I like to see poor people? No. I wish that everyone could have enough money. But it is an unfortunate fact that some poor people are needed to maintain a stable economy. Economics is never cut and dry. Many things seem contrdictory. Who would ever have thought that having unemployed people is an absolute necessity to control inflation? If you have never studied economics, having 0% unemployment probably sounds like a good thing to you.

My point being, you are well intentioned, but most of your ideas aren't economically viable. And if you are really concerned about rich/poor divides and the rest, I'd urge you to go into economics and try to work on those problems within the confines of reality.

We all wish we could be idealists. Then one day you wake up and realize you're a realist and you need to save the world from idealists.

 

[Pesmerga]

Communism is perfect on paper, but impossible to actually work correctly. Human nature is simply not built for it, all the things you hear about natural selection, survival of the fittest, all apply to the downfall of communism.

A computer network is like communism, you've got total equality through data transfer, no one computer tries to grow stronger or better than the others, but rather support the entire network by helping the connected computers as a whole.