space sim possible?

[polypod]

I was wondering if this would be terribly difficult or was even feasible considering map size.. It seems like the physics being already set up might make this easier then it usually is to make a space sim..
even a game of asteroids would be sweet!
are there any other space sim lovers out there? :bounce:

 

[Ennui]

isn't that what project hull breach is doing?

I'm leading up a mod team for a semi-space sim; it's actually all inside of a space station, but I'm considering adding space combat at some point in the future...

 

[polypod]

actually i just checked out their site and it looks pretty cool but it's still a first-person shooter.. i guess i didn't specifically say it but i'm thinking of a spaceship simulator.. specifically, one with realistic physics, which means once you have momentum you keep that momentum and thrusters will continue to accelerate you.. the spaceship sim Independence Day is a good example.. it also means you can use side thrusters while moving forward or backward etc.. it really makes for some awesome dogfighting!

 

[PvtRyan]

That's not hard to do. Just set gravity to 0 and air density to 0.

You have about 400x400x400 m of space to move in, which is not really enough, but by changing the scale (this will reduce physics accuracy, but that's not really important here) map size shouldn't be a problem either.

 

[Dead-Inside]

Don't forget to add in a repairstation or spacestation where you can, perhaps, go in and repair get repairs, get different upgrades.. .Etc.

That's what's needed for me to want to play.

 

[polypod]

I think i'll start off with a simple game of asteroids..
but a repair station would be great in the future!

i've already blown some boulders to pieces with an RPG in zero gravity, and it looks good, although the gibs fade.. wondering about making gibs into smaller asteroids?
wondering if i'll need to build a ship to attach thrusters..
any advise will be appreciated! :smoking:

 

[Dead-Inside]

Well if you wanna be really cool you'll use thrusters on a spaceship (Built in hammer) and well... Bind them to stuff. And then have something like the combine cascet you ride inside the citadel. When they enter that, the shipcontrols take over the regular ones, and they control your hammer-built ship with the thrusters attached to it. That means they got freelook and stuff too.

Alternativly you could make a model and bind everything I said in Hammer instead and make it a bit more fancy.

Don't know what you'll be shooting if you build it in hammer though.

Edit; There IS a tutorial for this... I'll go look it up.
http://www.hl2 world.com/wiki/index.php/Controllable_Brush_Vehicle
and another interesting article you can learn from;
http://www.hl2 world.com/wiki/index.php/Catapults
Enjoy.

 

[meatbadnoeat]

Space sims

I have been wanting to make one for a long time, in fact i even wrote my own engine in C++ using open gl. It has real space physics you keep moving in any direction,,, its a littile old now, about 2-3 years though,

http://www.gxweb.net/ojer/index.htm

feel free to down load and mess with it. Thought after months of working on it i realized that making a descent engine would take to long, so i looked around for one, i found torq but thats still a lot of work thats when i heard about Half life. So im kinda reserching the same thing as you. What i want to do is give people total immersion, like you see a ship, and then you can walk in to it, none of that HUD crap, I mean rescnet space shooters have gone down the drain for example, freelanceer and countless other mouse space simulators. I miss the good old days of the original Privateer.

 

[Dario D.]

Cool engine. The stars in the jump-in scene look really hi-res and realistic.

I'm so tired of games with big, fat, ugly stars, and not enough of them.

 

[meatbadnoeat]

Cool engine. The stars in the jump-in scene look really hi-res and realistic.

I'm so tired of games with big, fat, ugly stars, and not enough of them.

Me to, and you know what else i cant stand, freaking cloudy space, in some games the whole space is just one big fat nebula, with every single color you could ever wish for, its like a freakin carnaval.

No wonder the space sim industry is not doing so well, they cant get the SIM part or the Space part. I mean come on, no starts, no joystic, no physics, no cockpit, i mean what kinda games are they maken, i mean whats next? how much more can they dumb things down. Turn based?, wait they already did that, with that online space sim, it looked cool, untill i realized my ship needs to be level 40 to do damige. Level up a ship what the hell? Man to all you developers makin space sims, put the s*(t down, i mean stop smoken, and a littile piece of advice, ASTEROIDS GOT THE PHYSICS RIGHT, HOW HARD CAN IT BE. Lets do this in baby steps YOU THROW THE BALL IT KEEPS GOING, NO MATH JUST LET IT GOO. I mean come on listen to the people on this form theire talking about moding a first person shooter and adding thrusters to a combine prisoner pod, and you know what that shit will have more realism then 90% of the space sims in the last 10 years. So when you guys have that prisoner pod ready, let me know ill take her for a spin!

 

[Dead-Inside]

I have been wanting to make one for a long time, in fact i even wrote my own engine in C++ using open gl. It has real space physics you keep moving in any direction,,, its a littile old now, about 2-3 years though,

http://www.gxweb.net/ojer/index.htm

feel free to down load and mess with it. Thought after months of working on it i realized that making a descent engine would take to long, so i looked around for one, i found torq but thats still a lot of work thats when i heard about Half life. So im kinda reserching the same thing as you. What i want to do is give people total immersion, like you see a ship, and then you can walk in to it, none of that HUD crap, I mean rescnet space shooters have gone down the drain for example, freelanceer and countless other mouse space simulators. I miss the good old days of the original Privateer.

Indeed it's old. That looks like something that would have been released in 97-98 (And I'd never play it). If you're going to make an all out space sim today you'll need a *lot* better graphics and I think the Source engine is your ultimate engine for this, at least on the market currently .

I don't know what you mean though. Freelancer was good for what it offered, sadly enough it was just a surface game (There was no depth, you couldn't go to more then what, 3-4 places on each planet and after playing for a week you'd know where everything was and things would start repeating. Not so much fun anymore). The controls were good though.

What would be more fun would be to enter a cockpit and have controls for everything. Haven't you ever wanted to "Divert energy from the shields to overpower your weapons"? Heheheh...

--

As for nebulas... Have you ever looked in to space? lol. You should go try EVE if you want some good Space sim, but, unlike what I want, that needs commitment.

Ah, I see now, reading your second post... Yes, joystick/keyboard steyring would be a lot better. A walkable spaceship (With all what that includes) would rock, but... This kinda creates a problem if you're going to use it online for a multiplayergame, which really is the point.

 

[StardogChampion]

Me to, and you know what else i cant stand, freaking cloudy space, in some games the whole space is just one big fat nebula, with every single color you could ever wish for, its like a freakin carnaval.

No wonder the space sim industry is not doing so well, they cant get the SIM part or the Space part. I mean come on, no starts, no joystic, no physics, no cockpit, i mean what kinda games are they maken, i mean whats next? how much more can they dumb things down. Turn based?, wait they already did that, with that online space sim, it looked cool, untill i realized my ship needs to be level 40 to do damige. Level up a ship what the hell? Man to all you developers makin space sims, put the s*(t down, i mean stop smoken, and a littile piece of advice, ASTEROIDS GOT THE PHYSICS RIGHT, HOW HARD CAN IT BE. Lets do this in baby steps YOU THROW THE BALL IT KEEPS GOING, NO MATH JUST LET IT GOO. I mean come on listen to the people on this form theire talking about moding a first person shooter and adding thrusters to a combine prisoner pod, and you know what that shit will have more realism then 90% of the space sims in the last 10 years. So when you guys have that prisoner pod ready, let me know ill take her for a spin!

Maybe the games you're playing don't have simulation aspects because THEY'RE NOT SPACE SIMS. Not every game set in space has to be a simulation. Not every FPS has to be realistic either. Not every racing game has to have perfect real-world handling/breaking systems. Setting a game in space doesn't automatically mean it has to be a simulation, so don't complain.

I hope someone decides to make a space trading game, maybe with some fighting elements too. Something like X2 where the areas are split up by gateways. I think this would be very possible in the HL2 engine. Multiplayer would be pretty impossible for a game like that though. Single-player all the way.

 

[Recoil]

Guys... why do you want to make a space simulation mod for a first person shooter...?

 

[The Dark Elf]

Guys... why do you want to make a space simulation mod for a first person shooter...?

Thats like the people who asked the NS team why they wanted to make a game like that.

Because they want to, and it makes a change. Though I think making something like X2 or Elite in the source engine is just asking for trouble heh.

 

[Dead-Inside]

... There's an MMORPG being developed on the Source engine, why would you concider any other engine then Source? The most flexible engine on the market?

 

[Recoil]

The engine, yeah. But you're talking about HL2

 

[meatbadnoeat]

Indeed it's old. That looks like something that would have been released in 97-98 (And I'd never play it). If you're going to make an all out space sim today you'll need a *lot*....QUOTE]

Well it was not finished, the graphics could have been much better but the work load to make a descent egine was sick. Freelencer comes from a long heritage of realy good games, and the line goes back to an old game called Privateer, a supper clasic, and while it was not realistic, the game was excelent, each ship had its own detailed cockpit, so when you bought a new ship you felt like you got some thing new. And it actualy had a good amience, Plus each fight was dificult you couldint just blow 8237 ships a minute. So when free lanceer was coming out and i herd Chirs robersts was hired as a consultant, i bught the game first day. But after playing the game i realized that game play was sooo dumped down that it was not even 1/10ths of the original 1992 game. So that left me bitter.

Now image a game where you can have your multiplayer bodies walk around your ship, controlll turets, fix damage, and board other disabled ships,,,, now thats what im talkin aoubt. the original Privateer team has made an expension pack to That jedi night multiplay online game, i belive the pack is called LightSpeed, and in that you can have your bodies, walk around on your ship,, Id love to play it but i hate MMOG becouse they just suck to much time up. I agree with you free lancer wasint a bad game, but when you have driven a lexus, man a honday just dosint feel right.

 

[meatbadnoeat]

Realism

Maybe the games you're playing don't have simulation aspects because ....

Boy if realism was the only problem, but your wrong realism is importan, why a such a big fus about the physics engine in source, why not just make people fly, or shoot rubber duckies.

I mean come on, if you cant belive it, its hard to make it fun, so the game has to be belivable at the least, now if you belive that your spaship drives like a car or a plane,,, read no more, no need to go on, just load up freelancer....

now i know what the developers are woried about, its never beed done before, its to hard to learn, no one will buy. .....

Why do people like airplane combat games,, becouse it takes skill,

why do people like, multiplayer death match, and not NPC deathmatch, becouse it takes skill,

Why was original asteroids so big, becouse it took skills.

But now the developers are soooo woried about bottom lines, they cant even put joysitick support becouse their woried most people dont have joystiks, and they want to appeal to every body. Well gues what if you open an ice screem store and you try to make one flaver that pleases every one, what are you gona end up with? an out of buisness sign.

And space phyics are a blast thats what my engine was about. to see if they could be fun.

but oohhh well what do i know.... Its just like acclaim where i worked as a game tester, all the shity games got promoted, vexx, bmx xxx, legend of wresteling, but good games like burnout 2, they left them on the back burnen, welll now their banckrupt, should have listend to their own testers lol.

 

[polypod]

yeah, it's the physics of space that make it especially fun!
say you're going one direction.. you can disengage thrusters and turn around and fire while moving(backward).. asteroids allowed this in 2d,(although you slowed down through time which is inaccurate)

i've mentioned this before but Independence Day did this quite well and the battles were lots of fun when you got the controls down..
I like what your talking about Meatbadnoeat! The more i think about it.. a huge ship with powerful thrusters and the works! robot arms, tracking beams(grav gun)..
i've been toying around with a spaceship but it's not ready for a test flight yet.. the tutorial about making an airplane spends a lot of time on keeping it level, which might not be in issue with zero gravity..
can someone point to a tutorial that describes how to bind keys or otherwise control my spaceship with thruster activation?

 

[Dead-Inside]

Might not? It isn't. What you don't have in Source, though, is wind simulation. So you can't have them blown to the side by some force (Another jet thruster's exhaust, for example, can't push something unless you specifically code it as such).

Not a major problem, it has EVERYTHING else .

 

[The Dark Elf]

yeah, it's the physics of space that make it especially fun!
say you're going one direction.. you can disengage thrusters and turn around and fire while moving(backward).. asteroids allowed this in 2d,(although you slowed down through time which is inaccurate)

i've mentioned this before but Independence Day did this quite well and the battles were lots of fun when you got the controls down..
I like what your talking about Meatbadnoeat! The more i think about it.. a huge ship with powerful thrusters and the works! robot arms, tracking beams(grav gun)..
i've been toying around with a spaceship but it's not ready for a test flight yet.. the tutorial about making an airplane spends a lot of time on keeping it level, which might not be in issue with zero gravity..
can someone point to a tutorial that describes how to bind keys or otherwise control my spaceship with thruster activation?

I think the best bet for a space sim would be to remove the physics to allow a far larger playing area. In a space sim, having such accurate physics would be a waste compared to superlarge maps with pretty much just models in it and a giant skybox.

 

[StardogChampion]

Boy if realism was the only problem, but your wrong realism is importan, why a such a big fus about the physics engine in source, why not just make people fly, or shoot rubber duckies.

I mean come on, if you cant belive it, its hard to make it fun, so the game has to be belivable at the least, now if you belive that your spaship drives like a car or a plane,,, read no more, no need to go on, just load up freelancer....

That's what I'm saying. When Elite 4 comes out people will be expecting fully modelled space physics, with thrusters in all sorts of positions around the ship so you can position yourself perfectly. But when Freelancer 2 comes out, nobody will be expecting anything like that, because it's not that kind of space game.

Having proper physics in Freelancer would've dropped it's score from a 60/100 down to a 25/100. I doubt they would've worked for that game.

I want physics in space games. I've been playing F: First Encounters for a while now, and also Orbiter, but I was just saying, not every space game needs proper physics.

 

[Dario D.]

Source is not the engine for space sims, unless, as someone said earlier, you shrink the size of everything *considerably*... like too small to work with... so that you'll have room to fly.

I think the Unreal Engine, (having worked with it a lot), or an engine *made* for flight simulation would be best, as such engines would provide much more space, much more control, and MUCH more freedom to the designers to get the job done faster, with a much better editor, much easier coding, and skybox possibilities like no other (as far as Unreal).

Making a space sim with source, as Dark Elf said, would be asking for trouble.

 

[meatbadnoeat]

I dont think it would be that, bad, depends on how much engine recoding you want to do. no matter what engine you have distance is going to be an issue, even in my own space sim you could quickly run the poor littile 32 bit number to its end. Just image what will be possible with these 64 bit machines, i mean each bit is 2 wice as much as the one before it, with 64 bit, all these distance problems will be distent.

We can deal with the smaller space like battle field does, by couseing damige if you try to go to far out.

 

[polypod]

maybe you could use teleports to keep the illusion of a bigger space? (although this would bring up some complications with other ships, etc..

*could someone tell me how to change the map unit size so that it's at the largest size? (least accurate physics)

 

[The Dark Elf]

maybe you could use teleports to keep the illusion of a bigger space? (although this would bring up some complications with other ships, etc..

*could someone tell me how to change the map unit size so that it's at the largest size? (least accurate physics)

You'd do all that in the fgd file, and build smaller objects, and then code it so you move slower, to match up with the new scale.

The problem is Source can allow larger maps, but its still limited in size, so while something like the coastal maps appear huge, its because they use a U shape, so you'd go from A to B to C etc. before reaching Z.

The problem then with space, is you can pretty much go from A to Z in a straight line. And currently that takes only about a minute directly from point A to point Z

Now from an email I got from Gabe, its quite possible to make a map 100km x 100km in size. But with reduced accuracy in the physics. This wouldn't be too much of an issue with big ships. Debris etc. wouldn't collide accurately, but in those cases you'd want very simple bounding boxes anyway and wouldn't need anything fancy atall for those.

The only issue with such large maps is there are still tight limits to what you can put into a single map. So you can't make a map with tons of detail. BUT, space is big, and its mostly empty. So you'd likely never actually run into the brush/model limits.

Removing physics completely would let you make very large maps, to ensure the fuel in the ships ran out long before it would be possible to reach the edge.. though you'd have to write something into it to explain away why you wont be allowing objects to continue along its course indefinately. Maybe all ships have special thrusters attached that prevent drifting or something. So people couldn't drift to the skybox surrounding the map and spoil the illusion.

Another bonus is you can use lots of LOD in the models, asteroids n such, your very unlikely to be very close to more than a couple of objects at any one time. So you can have lots of stuff on screen, but no slowdown. And setup things to fade out after a certain distance.

For really complex space maps. Set them inside a nebula, use fog and fancy effects in the 3dskybox and the playing area to cut down view distance and keep things looking very pretty.

Oh and your not allowed to make a space sim unless the ships are as beautiful looking as those in the Homeworld games.

 

[firemachine69]

I'll find the game, it was a Flight Simulator for the Shuttle. Beautiful stuff.

 

[Hazar]

This would be a really cool thing if it was done right

I'd definetly play.

btw, was it going to be sp or mp or both?

 

[meatbadnoeat]

Yeah im giving some realy serius thought to starting something like that my self. But i realy want to go nuts, i want the abitlity to walk around the ship while it loops and stuff, and i dont think source would be happy with me

 

[The Dark Elf]

Yeah im giving some realy serius thought to starting something like that my self. But i realy want to go nuts, i want the abitlity to walk around the ship while it loops and stuff, and i dont think source would be happy with me

Well there are some convoluted ways you could do that actually.

two area's, your "ship" part of the map, where you are and you can mvoe around in it etc.

then the space area of the map.

use a camera moving around in the space area of the map linked back to the view outside of your ship area of the map. Then work out ways to link together stuff for damage to your ship (when its being aimed toward the object/camera in the space section of the map, while your actually elsewhere)

Now if you did that, you could have even bigger maps. But regarding MP it might not work cause of the camera only working from one view at a time. But it would atleast allow moving around inside, depends whats possible with vehicles though, that balloon thing in that garrys mod looks promising, so something along those lines could well work too.

 

[polypod]

This would be a really cool thing if it was done right

I'd definetly play.

btw, was it going to be sp or mp or both?

well i'm pretty new to mapping but have wanted to see a good space sim.. i'm starting with asteroids but ultimately, multi-player ship battles are what i'm after.. i'll likely need help for the latter plan in which case i'll make up a presentation... here's a basic idea of what i'd like to see:

-realistic physics
-ability to rotate while moving,(aka asteroids but 3d) allowing for excellent maneuverability and skill development(but increases learning curve)
-competetive style gameplay including ship customization via allocation points
-power distribution options between shield/weapon/engines
-radar using two spheres for front/rear(aka tiefighter)
-weapons include lasers, plasma projectiles and missiles
-game types include "capture the flag.. ship"(disable and return enemy flag-ship to your territory), "missile command"(defend incoming attacks against planetary cities and defenses), and "asteroid showdown"(a hairy battle amidst asteroids with occasional appearences of alien craft, allows up to four teams)
-up to 32 players
-excellent sound effects
-addictive gameplay


hehe, but for now, i'm still figuring out how to control my little asteroids single player ship.. i've got thrusters forward/backward/left/right, but rotation is still an issue.. (does anyone know how i can bind the mouse to movement of rotation?) :rolling:

 

[meatbadnoeat]

Your a smart guy,,,

Well there are some convoluted ways you could do that actually.

two area's, your "ship" part of the map, where you are and you can mvoe around in it etc.

then the space area of the map.

use a camera moving around in the space area of the map linked back to the view outside of your ship area of the map. Then work out ways to link together stuff for damage to your ship (when its being aimed toward the object/camera in the space section of the map, while your actually elsewhere)

Now if you did that, you could have even bigger maps. But regarding MP it might not work cause of the camera only working from one view at a time. But it would atleast allow moving around inside, depends whats possible with vehicles though, that balloon thing in that garrys mod looks promising, so something along those lines could well work too.

Now stop giving away my ideas, lol, thats exactly what i was planing to do,,, heheeeheh good job. The camera wont be a problem since,,,, its a mod and we can change some of the enigne coding.

 

[Dario D.]

In my opinion there isn't much fruit in making a mod like a space sim when there are already space sim games, like Freespace, out there.

I think such a mod as this would only attract curiosity seekers. I also really think you're under-estimating the amount of work it takes to make something that's actually deep enough to compete with space sims that are full games.

I mean you could have 4 ships and a couple of weapons... but how long would that be fun?

- In my humble opinion, I think you should put your efforts into something more promising, more original, and that's reasonable to accomplish *successfully* in a reasonable amount of time.

Half-Life 2 space sims just aren't meant to last.

 

[The Dark Elf]

In my opinion there isn't much fruit in making a mod like a space sim when there are already space sim games, like Freespace, out there.

You might aswell say there's no point making First person shooters cause there's already HL and Doom out there.

I think such a mod as this would only attract curiosity seekers. I also really think you're under-estimating the amount of work it takes to make something that's actually deep enough to compete with space sims that are full games.

Mod / Game.. Two different things. If they were making a game yes, but their not, their making a mod for a game most people here already own. A free mod that people can download and play. If they were expected to pay for it you'd have a point, but they aren't.

I mean you could have 4 ships and a couple of weapons... but how long would that be fun?

Open your eyes to more idea's than just the basics. A mod can do considerably more than you seem to think.

- In my humble opinion, I think you should put your efforts into something more promising, more original, and that's reasonable to accomplish *successfully* in a reasonable amount of time.

You mean like an FPS? Oh wait, but no, there's no point is there, since there's already FPS games out there I'd say making a space sim in a FPS engine is pretty original, its more original than making a City17 DM map..

Half-Life 2 space sims just aren't meant to last.

In your opinion.

 

[Dasparov]

They did a marble madness with ut2003 (i think that was it) so i dont see why not...

offtopic, sorry for stealing but does anyone know how to get the tollbox (to make brushes ect)back because i exited it some how and cant get it back

 

[Brian Damage]

When I made a small 2D space sim-type game, I had the player in the middle, with everything moving around him. Everything had its own coordinates in something like a 2000x2000 pixel virtual grid, of course, but when it came time to render things to screen, every object was rendered based on it's distance and direction from the player.

So maybe in Source, you could always have the player in the center of the map, with objects rendered in the... what was it? A 400m cube? The 400m cube around the player. Then, you could have your physics AND your space flight.

 

[The Dark Elf]

When I made a small 2D space sim-type game, I had the player in the middle, with everything moving around him. Everything had its own coordinates in something like a 2000x2000 pixel virtual grid, of course, but when it came time to render things to screen, every object was rendered based on it's distance and direction from the player.

So maybe in Source, you could always have the player in the center of the map, with objects rendered in the... what was it? A 400m cube? The 400m cube around the player. Then, you could have your physics AND your space flight.

Wouldn't you effectively have to re-write the physics engine though, as you'd be simulating the ships movement while it was stationary, so other objects, even when they aren't supposed to be moving themselves, would be moving to give the impression of you moving.

 

[meatbadnoeat]

Great point

You might aswell say there's no point making First person shooters cause there's already HL and Doom out there.

And if i may ad, there are tons of great great first person shooters out their, infact there may just be too many. How ever there are very few quality space sims, Freelancer, is an ardcade game and a sad one at that, i meand did any one look at the ships in that game, they where by far the least inspired bucket of crap i had ever seen. My cat could draw a better ships then that. Trading was crap to, it TOLD you witch stations had what prices, himmmmmm, thats kinda like telling you witch stocks are gonna be up in a month. The reason it sucked is becouse corporate intresets where soo in to the bottom line, that they made a space sim that catered to every one. You simply cant do that, like you can cater a flight simulater to an 2d fighitng game
gamer. Freelancer was targeting first person shooters, and so its best thought of as doom in space.

So if there is any place that needs a mod, that needs some one who is not looking to cater to ever one, some one who is not trying to make money, its definatly a space sim. Theres simply no good competition out their.

And space sims are the EASIEST mods to make, think about it,
you dont nearly need as meny textures, items, levels, as in a first person shooter.

 

[Gbud]

The up/down issue is the problem right?

Do you realize how much fun a killbox type map would be if it was a sphere with no gravity and you could push off in any direction?

But the map is still oriented with an up and a down....

Picture Enders Game.


Oh and playing asteroids from inside the ship in 3d would be very cool.

 

[meatbadnoeat]

come to think of it i dont think u can even bank the player view port