splintering wood

Originally posted by Kamakazie
i enver saw a pice of 2 by 4..... look more like old roten bits of 4 by 1.... certainly doesn't look like a 2 by 4......... DEFINATELY doesn't imo. much thinner.... and possibly wider... not to sure on that aspect.

Kam
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Yeah and all the 2x4's in the game look identical, not one of the has a Home Depot price tag on it.
 
Well I havn't read alot of this thread so it may have been said. But I would like to know from those people who think the wood splinters too much. Just how many of you have actually SEEN boards and planks of wood shot at from different kinds of guns in real life. Okay, you can't say it splinters too much if you have never seen real wood splintering from real guns now can you.
 
Posted by Punisher454 on Friday:

While watching the demo vids something has been bothering me a bit. The wood splinters way too easy!
Done get me wrong, its a cool feature and I'd rather have it than not, but its a little overdone.

I've blasted away at alot of wooden targets over the years, and they end up with a hole in them alot more often than just splintering apart from a single shot, especialy from small caliber bullets (probably fully jacketed too).

In the demo a 2x4 will splinter apart from a single shot of the pistol (probably a little 9mm, I didnt pay attention to the particular model). something as light as a 9mm may or may not even fully penetrate a 2x4!

I remember one weekend a couple years ago I was shooting at a wooden grade stake about 150yards away with My AK. I probably fired off at least 60 rounds at that one particular target that afternoon. later when I went out to inspect the results of all my shooting I noticed that it had little clean 30 caliber holes all up and down it. But it still held together.
On the other hand I've shot pieces of wood much larger that practicly exploded.
The point is that the wood in the demo was way too sensitive and brittle to be realistic. Fun yes, cool yes, realistic NO.

anyhow thats the last post for me till monday, got a little vacation for the weekend.
Later!
----------------

That's the post that started it all, Punisher will come back on Monday and see that he started a very lively discussion.
 
Originally posted by The Mullinator
Well I havn't read alot of this thread so it may have been said. But I would like to know from those people who think the wood splinters too much. Just how many of you have actually SEEN boards and planks of wood shot at from different kinds of guns in real life. Okay, you can't say it splinters too much if you have never seen real wood splintering from real guns now can you.
Click to expand...

I have to admit I've been the agent provacateur here so let me explain everything I mean. It's not about splintering per se.

Punisher talks about splintering, but I think he means desintegration in general. A 9mm is doing mondo damage to 2x4,
well the point that I've been trying to make is if this is what the entry level weapon does, what about other higher powered weapons? At some point you'll stop noticing the difference between the 9mm, SG, or RPG hitting the wood. That would be a shame, we know that different weapons affect wood to different degrees.

All that I, and probably the originator of this thread, want to see is a bit of realism and scalability when we take out wooden obstacles.

One plank may need crowbar, three or four an SG, a whole buttload of wood may need RPG, or 20 SG rounds/half hour with crowbar.

So it's really not about splinter effects, but about a reasonabel starting point for smashing wood, so that there is a realistic difference between using a 9 on three planks and a SG.

That's all I've been saying.
 
well the point that I've been trying to make is if this is what the entry level weapon does, what about other higher powered weapons? At some point you'll stop noticing the difference between the 9mm, SG, or RPG hitting the wood. That would be a shame, we know that different weapons affect wood to different degrees.
Click to expand...

But you're wrong about this as well. The pistol has always been the accuracy weapon: it does very small accurate damage to a target. In this case, it can splinter a single board (notice that even Punisher doesn't say that this never happens: just that it doesn't happen as often. Well, maybe this is just a very powerful pistol?)

Other weapons have wider spreads. A shotgun could blow apart several boards in one shot. A RL could waste an entire wooden structure. So the guns DO have a very different effect. So how is that not exactly the sort of ramp-up in power you are talking about?

And frankly the pistol's ability to take out single boards is exactly where that ramp up in power should start. It should NOT start at "I have to shoot this one board several times with the pistol in order to get it to do anything." It should start right where it is: single shot can splinter a single board.

And obviously wood is not going to be the only material in the game. You're not going to be able to blow up a pile of rocks with a pistol.
 
We're not far apart on this, but it is fun to argue with you Apos.
You structure your thoughts, and skip the death threats.

So in the interest of further sparring I say... horsepuckey!

I want each plank of wood to have Home Depot tag, and be impenetrable to 9mm rounds.

hoo hoo, this will be fun
 
just reading through this entire thread has shut down neurons in my brain. I can no longer contemplate the question "is this realistic?" The only remaining question is, "Can I demolish the Sears Tower with my shotgun?"

All in all, I'd like to thank the parties involved in creating this thread for desensitizing me to anything that might take away my sense of fulfillment as I destroy planks with my 9mm pistol and whip headcrabs to death with my crowbar. Already my innate sense of "reality" is fading.

Free your mind.
 
Im pretty sure you won't be able to demolish any buildings. I don't think they put in any thing like Red Factions geo-mod technology.
 
Originally posted by The Mullinator
Im pretty sure you won't be able to demolish any buildings. I don't think they put in any thing like Red Factions geo-mod technology.
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Hmm, we saw in the video that the Strider was able to demolish some buildings (or at least portions of them). I'm sure if you used the RPG it would have a similar effect. But I think it only applies to certain buildings, not the whole town.
 
Ya I guess it will apply to some buildings. Of course that brings up the question of "If you can do it to some buildings, then why not do it to all?" I really have no answer for that other than the building in that scene was made up of special pieces that were meant to be destroyed.
 
Originally posted by The Mullinator
Ya I guess it will apply to some buildings. Of course that brings up the question of "If you can do it to some buildings, then why not do it to all?" I really have no answer for that other than the building in that scene was made up of special pieces that were meant to be destroyed.
Click to expand...

Hmm, well I think there are a couple of reasons actually. First of all, it would be kind of hard to design every single building so that it could be destroyed in a dignified manner. I guess they could program the engine so that every wall would break up into random pieces, but buildings are not made up of just walls, and you would have to worry about all the stuff inside too. And of course there are major physics issues involved (i.e. what makes a building finally collapse?)

The second, more practical reason is that it would ruin the gameplay. I mean, why go around the city when you could just blast through all the walls?

On the other hand, it would be great if you could blast through doors (the ones you are supposed to open) and set wooden things on fire.
 
let me clear this up, buildings are not just empty boxes in hl2 they all have insides and they are destructible to a degree.
so you can't break down a house to dust with the crowbar.
the city 17 setting and the hl2 gameplay wont have you going through one road and everything else being blocked off, so destroying buildings, or a part of the building won't really do much for the getting around it way of thinking, hl2 will also have inside levels, and the walls won't be destructible, this isnt red faction. im sure they have the technology to do it, but they dont want to implement it into the setting of the game.
 
I doubt all buildings will have insides, and destruction will primarily be cosmetic to major structures. Gabe said that you could destroy lots of things, but that elements crucial to the game would remain.

Adding detailed innards to all buildings in the city wouldn't be anywhere near as great as it sounds. First of all, the poly requirements would shoot up drastically. But second of all, there couldn't be all that much in so many different random buildings: there's just not enough content to fill them ALL with interesting stuff or equipment on every story. And the fact is, when players are allowed to explore somewhere they will, and if there isn't something in there that drives the story, it will ultimately bore them. So it makes much more sense to only open up areas that truly further the story, rather than being able to break into "bedroom #347" of an apartment complex.
 
but they should be filled with personal stuff about peoples' lives that you can laugh about, like a cock pump lying around, ha ha ha! or 100 fast food wrappers around the floor.
and so on and so forth.
 
I Just got back a few hours ago from a little family weekend outting and WOW what a busy thread.
I guess I stirred up a bit of action (and a few attitudes too).

First I guess I need to clarify My point. I wasnt saying I wanted it to be super realistic, just that it seemed overdone and was sort of wondering if anybody else noticed. I sited a few realworld examples of shooting at wood and how different it was from the game demo.
Hopefully(for me atleast) the strength of the wooden objects were set to be a bit sensitive for the sake of demonstrating the technology, which rocks BTW.

As far as not knowing anything about firearms, Well I'm no Peter Kokalis, but I've shot plenty. Growing up in Alaska provides plenty of oportunitys to go shooting without having to go to some lame ass indoor range. BTW I no longer live in Alaska. In addition to recreational shooting done over the years, I also served in the US Army from '89-'91. Here I was able to witness first hand the power of the .50 cal machine gun, the M-60, the M-203, hand grenades, Claymore mines, Mk-19 automatic grenade launcher, AT-4 80mm(or is it 84mm?)anti-tank rocket(one of My favorites), M72 LAW rocket(was being phazed out then) and of course a few variants of the AR-15, which is an M-16 after having the Full-Auto treatment.

Am I a "Redneck" Hmmm.... Well I guess if having lived in rural areas a few times makes you one, then sure. But I hate cowboy hats, dont care for country music, dont like Rodeo, Dont chew, and I like Muscle cars instead of 4x4's. Hmmm... still a redneck?

The funny thing is that A couple of times when I lived in places that I could shoot in My back yard I never did, but when I lived in an apartment in Burbank (Thats next to Hollywood, and where most TV and Movie production realy happens) I was a bit disapointed that it would take about 3 hours to drive someplace to go do some outdoor target practice (isolated canyon in the Mojave desert). You dont apreciate something untill its gone!

As far as leagaly owning an AK-47 in the US, in order to do so you'll need a BATF tax stamp(I think its annual) and a Class 3 licence. Its all very expensive(and ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY) and a lot of red tape, not to mention that evrytime there's a crime in the area the ATF (known for their good judgment and honorable tactics) will be knockin on youre door wanting to check youre guns. I'll pass thank you.
Mine was(I'm at the moment in between AK's) a Norinco MAK-90 with a milled receiver(rare I discovered). Its basicly a chinese made AK-47 but its modified to fire only Semi-Auto (more paractical anyhow) has the bayonette lug milled off, has no muzzle brake and has a thumbhole stock instead of a traditional pistol grip. Functionaly its an AK-47 but semi only. I use the term AK-47 to describe what I'm talking about without having to explain the differences in models to those who dont know or even care to. My next AK will be a modified Saiga built at Izmash(SP?) According to BATF regs you can import and modify one into whats basicly a semi-auto AKM if you replace enough imported parts with US made components that its no longer considered an imported weapon. Its a complicated law, and thats all I'm going into right now.

In some parts of the US firearms ownership is severly restricted, Kalifornia as a whole state, New York city and DC come to mind. keep in mind that DC and NY have very high crime rates that seemed to jump when handgun ownership was restricted (thats good news for people wanting job security in law enforcment) and its quite low in Texas, where concealed carry permits(do they even need permits?)are easy to obtain and people are more likely to decide to defend themselvs rather than just roll over and take it.

Is the US another "AXIS OF EVIL" hmm.... Okay sure, evil bad Americans, please do spread the word, cuz its getting too crowded here for my likes and they just keep on comin!

OH, back to the wood. I DO believe that a 22LR could splinter a 2x4, SOMETIMES. As for a 9mm, SOMETIMES, depending on the wood type and condition as well as ammo type and trajectory. All the time however, no I dont think so.
But just for Fun I think I'll plan a little outting for later this summer and bring a few 2x4's as well as a couple of 4x4 fence posts. I'll also bring a few steel targets as well, in varying thicknesses and perhaps a sample car door, a serious car, a 76 Cadillac Eldorado and perhaps a flimsy import door too if I come across one, something like a Geo or Honda or VW Golf for a little penetration comparison.
Weapons will include:
A Ruger Super Blackhawk .44MAG with a 7.5" barrel. Ammo will include factory and handloaded Semi-wadcutter, FMJ(maybe), JHP, and some Black Talon .
A Ruger 10/22 rifle firing several different brands of 22LR.
A 7mm Mauser Cavalry rifle That I recently inherited.
A model 1894 Winchester Lever action with Octagon barrel. Chambered in 30WCF now known as 30-30. This will be only SLIGHTLY more powerfull than the 7.62x39 fired by an AK and will stand in If My next AK is not ready yet.
A Remington Model 1100 12ga semi-auto shotgun with an assortment of rounds rangine from steel birdshot to slugs(I need to call My uncle who has this one and see if it's choked or not for the slugs)
I'll also find a 9mm auto pistol to borrow from somebody(or I'll just invite them along , and get some help with the Caddy door).
And I'll be sure to include FMJ military style ammo as well as JHP.

Results will be photographed with a digital camera and possibly recorded on video. Results will be made available immediatly after the trip. Hopefuly I can get the time before august.

Anyhow, I'd still rather have wood splintering that greatly exagerated than not at all. And I also agree that going for TOO MUCH realism can make it boring! But I'm hoping that valve just had the effect turned way up for the demo and it wont be quite so easy to take down things like bridges and platforms (in normal working order)with just one or two shots from a 9mm, that may be just a bit much for me.
 
The splintering wood does seem a little over-done but I think it is
still very believable. Most of the breaking wood already seems to
have weight on them and they do not look as thick as 2X4's to
me. I think the wood would have an effect on gameplay; it would
have a much greater effect if combine soldier could break down
doors and barricades while they chased you or if you could blow
out platforms that they stood on.

About building innards, I think that Apos is right. Hl2 is trying to
be a narrative and control all the elements of the game to be
as exciting as possible (I could start loads of other threads on this
subject). I'd rather have a cool roof top chase scene where I run
through an apartment and see the people inside get freaked out
while I run over their dinner table followed by armed soldiers
than get to open countless apartments with the same stuff in it.
 
Good post Punisher.

I also noticed that the metal kind of tears apart in a perfectly straight tear. Kind of weird.

But yes, it doesn't really matter. I was just trying to say:

Although they are indeed the best around at the moment, there's a lot further it can go as far as realistic graphics and effects go.
 
Ahh so the wood issue seems settled.

As for buildings, Valve said the player can affect things in his environment, why not allow him to run around town smashing all the windows?

Talk about immersion, just walking around moving/smashing/knocking over stuff just because you can.

I also hope the map is more open than BM was, allowing you to roam more freely.
 
Hmmm... I like how this guy is so against killing animals but will gladly take a human life. :/

Anyway, back to playing Deer Hunter.
 
As for buildings, Valve said the player can affect things in his environment, why not allow him to run around town smashing all the windows?
Click to expand...

It looks pretty obvious that you can smash windows, but I expect it will mostly be a graphical effect on most buildings that you can't actually go into (like in the Strider vid: it shoots out windows, but I doubt you can go into that building.
 
It would be way cool. Wood fetishes aside. the free roaming would really add exceptional realism.

Have you ever fantasized about being the only person in town?
Like you have the run of the place, go to the BMW dealership grab some wheels, drive to neighboring town, pick up chicks.

That would be so cool, I hope ther's a BMW showroom in City 17.

(By the way I have a fever, so this may not be making sense.)
 
Have you ever fantasized about being the only person in town?
Like you have the run of the place, go to the BMW dealership grab some wheels, drive to neighboring town, pick up chicks.
Click to expand...

It's fun for about 20 minutes, until you run out of random things to do. Then you want story, interaction, and action. RPGs are really much better suited for exploration type experiences. Deus Ex 2 will hopefully be really good for exactly this reason.
 
Originally posted by Apos
It's fun for about 20 minutes, until you run out of random things to do. Then you want story, interaction, and action. RPGs are really much better suited for exploration type experiences. Deus Ex 2 will hopefully be really good for exactly this reason.
Click to expand...

Yes will Deus Ex 2 be any good? I think it might be boring compare to HL2.
 
From what I've seen so far of Deus Ex, It's very unimpressive, looks and looks like it feels excatly like the first 1 :( with no improvements on graphics or anything, looks like we in for more of the same in that department, which is unfortunate, because I was quite looking forward to it... :(
 
Originally posted by Stone
From what I've seen so far of Deus Ex, It's very unimpressive, looks and looks like it feels excatly like the first 1 :( with no improvements on graphics or anything, looks like we in for more of the same in that department, which is unfortunate, because I was quite looking forward to it... :(
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Guys, why do you always talking about graphics? Is it the most important thing ever? By the way, Deus Ex 2 has real time shadows, and it does look good. What do you mean no improvements? Did you read interviews, reviews? Why so many ignorant FPS fans out there?
 
Originally posted by Mr.Reak
Guys, why do you always talking about graphics? Is it the most important thing ever? By the way, Deus Ex 2 has real time shadows, and it does look good. What do you mean no improvements? Did you read interviews, reviews? Why so many ignorant FPS fans out there?
Click to expand...

Edirimifficate me Mr.Reak. Whats 'm I missin' heere?
 
Originally posted by Lordblackadder
Edirimifficate me Mr.Reak. Whats 'm I missin' heere?
Click to expand...

I have no idea what you are saying :\
 
I mean that since you said that certain people are ignorant of thae facts as presented in the media, then please edify us.
Post a link or two. I don't follow Deus Ex so if you know something I don't, please share.

That's all I meant, as expressed in the King's English.
 
Originally posted by ValVed RaY
ak-47s are not legal in america, they can use them for demonstration at gun shows, with special licenses, some people can try them to, but you can't just have an ak47 for personal use in america.
Click to expand...

god u people better shut your mouth because u obviously no nothing about weapons and their laws. AK-47s ARE AS LEAGLE AS A .22 PISTOL IN AMERICA U ****S. listen to me morons because a weapon is usally automatic dosnt mean u buy it like that ak's are leagle if you have them semi auto and no magazines over 30 rounds(like the 100 round drum mag) and AK-47's ARE LEAGLE AUTOMATIC TOO IN AMERICA MORON. you have to have a class c(3) license and you can shoot at automatic ranges. i dont know how old you bloody fools are or where you hear this shit, but i can own an m60 and shoot it at the range across the street fomr the FBI and they cant do anything. I have 2 ak-47's and ar-15(a semi auto m16 basicly) an m1 carbine, a mauser kar 98k 20mm, a german 1942 luger, a clot 1911, a SKS, a mosin nagant and other pistols. u guys really need to stop talking shit one of your 12 year old friends told you because you dont know shit. v.ray just because i quoted you dosnt mean your the only person im laffing at.

i know punisher cleared some stuff up but i started it and apparently no one believed me. btw i live in Pensilvania and i shoot mostly at Fort Dix in new jersey and a few local ranges.
 
Originally posted by Lordblackadder
I mean that since you said that certain people are ignorant of thae facts as presented in the media, then please edify us.
Post a link or two. I don't follow Deus Ex so if you know something I don't, please share.

That's all I meant, as expressed in the King's English.
Click to expand...

Here is a lot of info
http://www.planetdeusex.com/dx2/info/

And here are screenshots:

http://www.deusex.com/
 
i shoot mostly at Fort Dix in new jersey
Click to expand...

I did My basic training at Ft. Dix back in 89. Whats heppening there now? I heard it was being closed years ago. Curious.
 
From those screenshots, the graphics look pretty good to me. I mean, its no HL2, but nothing is.

Plus like what many have said, Deus Ex will more than likely havin a rockin story, and tons of RPG goodness.
 
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