Team Fortress 2 Blog: Designing Sniper Unlock

[Trezoristo]

I find it amusing to see how some people seem to classify games unlike counterstrike as 'casual games'. I have played and still play a lot of games, mostly shooters, but never really gotten into counterstrike because I got shot, respawned and then got shot again. Maybe if I played the game for a couple of weeks I'd get better, but until you get there it just isn't any fun. Even to those who play more than a couple of hours a week gaming is a hobby, not a profession; There's nothing wrong with expecting some instant gratification.

The trick then, is to make the game fun for different types of gamers, and I think this is something Valve is getting increasingly better at. With each new iteration, the Half-Life series is showing us increasingly better examples of good storytelling in games, something I apreciate way more than additional polygons or a new weapon. Portal did something new and also had some amazing storytelling. Team Fortress 2 is a lot of fun, and I for one think it's really cool that new stuff keeps being added to the game. Left 4 Dead introduced the director which I hope returns in future Valve shooters.

As for Counter Strike. If so many people still love it, and those people will likely hate any change you make to the game, what's the point in building a sequel?

 

[chimpmunk]

I would say Valve needs to cater to the hardcore crowd, the CS crowd.

Please god no!

Also, you seem to see CS as the ultimate "hardcore" game while, at its core, it's a pretty simple game of "Click on everyone's head". Just because the players are "hardcore" gamers doesn't mean the game isn't "casual".

 

[Darkside55]

you seem to see CS as the ultimate "hardcore" game while, at its core, it's a pretty simple game of "Click on everyone's head". Just because the players are "hardcore" gamers doesn't mean the game isn't "casual".

I have never played CS competitively. I have never been enrolled in a league or even played ringer in a scrim. I have never even so much as watched a CS match on Youtube. Counter-Strike is a casual game for casuals.

Deciphered that for you.

You seem to be confusing when a game is casual and when it isn't. Simplistic game design != casual. While the game's goal is simple the actual skill necessary to achieve that goal on a competitive level is high. Could a casual player get some fun out of CS? Sure they can. But it doesn't make the game casual.

You're trying to boil down the game into its basic premise in order to write it off as being a casual game, and that doesn't work. It's like saying, "Street Fighter, at its core, is a pretty simple game of 'punch people in the face.'" or "The Tesla II Battletech game (pre-Firestorm), at its core, is a pretty simple game of 'shoot at the other robot.'" A casual being able to enjoy a game designed for competitive play is a mark of good game design--simplistic enough to enjoy just by sitting down and playing it, but having an huge layer of depth beneath the surface.

Bringing it back to TF2, TF2 can be classified as a game that is truly for the casual. There's little depth in TF2. There's GRIND, certainly--but grind is not a mark of a game having depth, nor are the unlocks any sort of depth. There's no skill division in TF2...when you think about it, a casual gamer could play most classes as effectively as a hardcore player. And that's simply because the game doesn't have much in the way of a learning curve.

If you look at what Hool mentioned about TFC and CS, watching better players and learning from them, you'd notice a real skill division between your average casual pub-goer and people who've been at the game for awhile. In TFC you'd notice huge gaps in the skill levels of players, to the point where it would appear to a novice that the high-level players were playing a different game entirely.

I honestly believe that because TF2 lacks any of this kind of depth, Valve HAS to keep up the "freshness" of the game with new items, and new achievements, and new features and game modes. I said earlier, any kind of game that has a strong core will be popular and continue to grow strong without having to be pumped full of artificial depth under the guise of "new" and "interesting" additions.

And that's not necessarily saying TF2 is a bad game. It's just fluffy. It's filled with fluff in lieu of actual gaming depth. That is the mark of a casual game. The grind is there just to make casuals feel as if they've accomplished something; the extra items are there to try and give people "options" to their playstyle, because there's little to differentiate the playstyle of a novice with an expert in TF2 aside from their loadout.




tl;dr: TF2 is for casuals.

Sniper unlock is catering to casuals.

I think hardcore people are more prone to cry about simple occurrences in game.. Those freaks have the shortest tempers.

Hardcore gamers would be more likely to kick themselves in the ass rather than bitch about the other player. For example, what Robin Walker said about people being aggravated that a sniper shot them, let's look at the scenario like this:

Casual: "WHAT THE HELL?! How the fuck did that guy shoot me?! That's bullshit, I just got out of my respawn and he shot me. I couldn't even do anything because he's so far away. This is bullshit."

Hardcore: "Fuck me I'm stupid. I used the battlements exit from the respawn knowing that their sniper was camping the battlements from the enemy pillbox, which is the standard configuration for this map. I should have dropped down to the lower exit, waited five-point-two seconds, executed a left juke into rocketjump, soared over the pillbox and shot the sniper through the window on my way to the enemy yard. Stupid stupid stupid."

 

[Naph]

Only in a perfect world Darkside. But in reality:

Casual "Oh Lol I died, hopefully next time I will do better, but if I don't, I'll just go and have sex with my girlfriend."

Hardcore "I'm so god damn bad ass at this game that I must never be killed by any enemy alive! Oh shit I have died by sniper fire, I will now to shout expletory profanities towards the monitor and vow revenge to the person who had simply taken my life and forced me to wait 3 seconds before respawning. I hope I don't have to buy a new keyboard again, I can't afford a replacement on top of my anger management course."

 

[Cpt Tenacious]

Deciphered that for you.

You seem to be confusing when a game is casual and when it isn't. Simplistic game design != casual. While the game's goal is simple the actual skill necessary to achieve that goal on a competitive level is high. Could a casual player get some fun out of CS? Sure they can. But it doesn't make the game casual.

You're trying to boil down the game into its basic premise in order to write it off as being a casual game, and that doesn't work. It's like saying, "Street Fighter, at its core, is a pretty simple game of 'punch people in the face.'" or "The Tesla II Battletech game (pre-Firestorm), at its core, is a pretty simple game of 'shoot at the other robot.'" A casual being able to enjoy a game designed for competitive play is a mark of good game design--simplistic enough to enjoy just by sitting down and playing it, but having an huge layer of depth beneath the surface.

Bringing it back to TF2, TF2 can be classified as a game that is truly for the casual. There's little depth in TF2. There's GRIND, certainly--but grind is not a mark of a game having depth, nor are the unlocks any sort of depth. There's no skill division in TF2...when you think about it, a casual gamer could play most classes as effectively as a hardcore player. And that's simply because the game doesn't have much in the way of a learning curve.

If you look at what Hool mentioned about TFC and CS, watching better players and learning from them, you'd notice a real skill division between your average casual pub-goer and people who've been at the game for awhile. In TFC you'd notice huge gaps in the skill levels of players, to the point where it would appear to a novice that the high-level players were playing a different game entirely.

I honestly believe that because TF2 lacks any of this kind of depth, Valve HAS to keep up the "freshness" of the game with new items, and new achievements, and new features and game modes. I said earlier, any kind of game that has a strong core will be popular and continue to grow strong without having to be pumped full of artificial depth under the guise of "new" and "interesting" additions.

And that's not necessarily saying TF2 is a bad game. It's just fluffy. It's filled with fluff in lieu of actual gaming depth. That is the mark of a casual game. The grind is there just to make casuals feel as if they've accomplished something; the extra items are there to try and give people "options" to their playstyle, because there's little to differentiate the playstyle of a novice with an expert in TF2 aside from their loadout.




tl;dr: TF2 is for casuals.

Sniper unlock is catering to casuals.



Hardcore gamers would be more likely to kick themselves in the ass rather than bitch about the other player. For example, what Robin Walker said about people being aggravated that a sniper shot them, let's look at the scenario like this:

Casual: "WHAT THE HELL?! How the fuck did that guy shoot me?! That's bullshit, I just got out of my respawn and he shot me. I couldn't even do anything because he's so far away. This is bullshit."

Hardcore: "Fuck me I'm stupid. I used the battlements exit from the respawn knowing that their sniper was camping the battlements from the enemy pillbox, which is the standard configuration for this map. I should have dropped down to the lower exit, waited five-point-two seconds, executed a left juke into rocketjump, soared over the pillbox and shot the sniper through the window on my way to the enemy yard. Stupid stupid stupid."

It's like i'm really reading a post from /v/!

 

[Darkside55]

It's like i'm really reading a post from /v/!

captainmorganscowardlybrother.jpg

 

[Kyorisu]

So basically Darkside got hit by one too many crit rockets and resorted to whining about how much the game is for casuals. Have I got that right? I might be wrong I haven't actually read anything.

Gaming, serious business.

 

[Cpt Tenacious]

captainmorganscowardlybrother.jpg

Lold hard, thanks Darkside.

 

[Absinthe]

So basically Darkside got hit by one too many crit rockets and resorted to whining about how much the game is for casuals. Have I got that right? I might be wrong I haven't actually read anything.

Gaming, serious business.

So what, we can't critique games on a gaming forum without being overreacting pussies?

Come on.

 

[chimpmunk]

You seem to be confusing when a game is casual and when it isn't. Simplistic game design != casual. While the game's goal is simple the actual skill necessary to achieve that goal on a competitive level is high. Could a casual player get some fun out of CS? Sure they can. But it doesn't make the game casual.

Read my post, I never said CS was casual. I just said that the game isn't that much "hardcore" in itself, but its playerbase is.

 

[Darkside55]

So basically Darkside got hit by one too many crit rockets and resorted to whining about how much the game is for casuals.

Absinthe said it better than I would have.

Read my post, I never said CS was casual. I just said that the game isn't that much "hardcore" in itself, but its playerbase is.

Just because the players are "hardcore" gamers doesn't mean the game isn't "casual".

I never said CS was casual

doesn't mean the game isn't "casual"

 

[Jintor]

Screw casual/hardcore divide. I just want to have fun. Will this unlock be fun? If it's fun, then awesome. If not, I'll go play something else.

Actually this probably makes me a casual gamer.

I'm wondering if all gaming should be treated as though it were a competitive sport. I would probably lose all interest in TF2 if I had to obsessively practice over and over again in order to survive. The fact that I can just jump right in and lay waste to all and sundry is a greatly attractive proposition to me.

tl;dr I'm the target market for TF2, darkseid can start whaling on me now

 

[ríomhaire]

I'm with Jintor on this one. I play games for entertainment, not as a labour.

 

[Darkside55]

I'm wondering if all gaming should be treated as though it were a competitive sport. I would probably lose all interest in TF2 if I had to obsessively practice over and over again in order to survive. The fact that I can just jump right in and lay waste to all and sundry is a greatly attractive proposition to me.

tl;dr I'm the target market for TF2, darkseid can start whaling on me now

Pssst...'wailing.'

And don't mistake me, I do not begrudge the casual for being a casual gamer. Everyone, casual players and hardcore players alike, play video games for enjoyment. Even those who take it to a professional degree and train for ridiculous hours and compete in tournaments for prizes and e-fame probably all still enjoy the games they play, just on a different level. A casual's interest is, well...casual. Jump in, have some fun, that's that. And I'd never hate on someone for the sheer joy of just enjoying a game without having to take their fun to a dedicated level. Don't all of us love to just pop into a server sometimes and play for fun when nothing depends on it?

What I DO have beef with is developers designing games that cater to one market at the expense of another. That's why I said, "designing for casuals has ruined gaming." Looking at what's proposed for the sniper update, specifically, it strikes me as, "We don't want to aggravate or alienate our casual user base. We don't want to put off gamers who might be new, or might just play the game on a weekend, and they'd get frustrated at being shot from far away when they couldn't do anything about it." I hate that kind of pandering. And certainly no one has to use the unlocked gun...hell unless it has some serious kind of bonus I doubt anyone would trade a sniper rifle for whatever it is they have in mind. You play the sniper because you want to fill the role of someone who shoots other people from far away, not to fill the role of someone who maybe shoots you from far away but then again might just want to get a liiiiiiiittle closer to his target. I just don't see the rationale in that.

And they kinda tried that with TFC too, y'know. Giving the sniper the AR. The difference was it wasn't given to prevent other players from getting mad at what the sniper could do; it wasn't designed to make snipers want to get closer to the enemy, it was designed for snipers to have a backup weapon in case the enemy got close to them. It was designed with the player playing the sniper in mind, not designed with the opponents of the sniper in mind. "Here's a weapon that may come in handy for you," vs. "We hope you'll choose this weapon so some fourteen-year-old kid doesn't have a conniption."



The AR sucked, BTW, for any of you that never played TFC or the TFC sniper.

The AR sucked a lot.

Goddamned thing couldn't save your ass when you had meds conc'ing all up on your shit and soldiers in your face with grenades or spies coming up behind you. The AR was useless against the occasional HW getting up on your battlements mowing you down. Close range weapons for the sniper do not benefit the sniper. The only option you ever have as the sniper is to kill the enemy sum'bitch before he gets within 50ft. of you. You put a bullet in the dome of an enemy coming your way and you don't have to worry about situations where you might need to "get closer."

Whatever they put in, it better be like, "You have to get within a couple yards of your enemy, but one hit anywhere is gonna take off their limbs or their head instantly." That's a benefit worth trading range for.

Of course casuals would get angry at that, because "wtf that sniper just walked up on me and shot me and it killed me in one hit this is bullshit."

I play games for entertainment, not as a labour.

So, do you play TF2? If yes, do you just not grind at all? Grinding's laborious.

 

[Warbie]

Competitive TF2 either adopts the unlockables that are balanced and add to the game, or bans them from match play. Valve may be pandering to the more casual gamers with these updates, but in doing so don't affect clan games in a negative way. If anything, being able to pick and choose from the worthy additions has added to the competitive game considerably.

If the new sniper rifle is shite it won't used in clan games at all. If it's overpowered it'll be banned. The casual gamers have a new toy to play with and the more hardcore gamers are still happy - it's win win.

 

[Darkside55]

competitive

TF2

 

[Jintor]

So, do you play TF2? If yes, do you just not grind at all? Grinding's laborious.

I don't grind at all, but that's mainly because I generally don't care enough about unlocks to want them all that much.

Everything I have has been eaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrned! By accident!

 

[Warbie]

Yup, it's rather excellent too.

I've never played a game in which the difference between public server and clan games is as pronounced as it is in TF2.

 

[Darkside55]

So no TFC for you, huh?

 

[Warbie]

Nope. Too old and too spammy.

 

[Darkside55]

And that's why you'll never know why your previous post is so incorrect. If ever there was a game where the difference between a pub completely differed from a clan match it was that one.

 

[Warbie]

I don't doubt it - pretty much all team based games are completely different in competitive play - but I never played TFC at clan level. TF2 - which is nothing but random spam and utter chaos on pubs - becomes ridiculously punishing, brutal and soley focussed on teamplay and twitch aiming in matches. RTCW was similar - but you'd know this having played these games at a decent level too

 

[Darkside55]

TFC and TF2 are very similar pub-wise. TF2 definitely sees a lot more teamwork than TFC ever did in pubs.

In TFC competition all the classes were played completely differently than they were used in pubs. The game became purely about speed. Speed and flight. EVERYONE flew. Even the engineers learned how to fly with their EMPs. The game became "he who flies farthest, fastest." Because if you could fly, you'd grab the flag and soar away, and the enemy would never touch you. And you'd pass your teammate on the way back to your base with the flag, and as soon as you'd capped it you'd hear the "ding" of your teammate grabbing the flag that just respawned. And you'd fly back toward the enemy base, and he'd fly back toward your base to cap, and you'd do an aerial high-five.

 

[Viperidae]

an aerial high-five.

Over a naked girl's back in an amateur porn? :naughty:

 

[Darkside55]

That was a bonus worth 30 team points.

 

[ríomhaire]

So, do you play TF2? If yes, do you just not grind at all? Grinding's laborious.

I have only dial-up internet at home so I rarely play TF2 using my own account. I play it often enough in internet cafés though. As such, I have no unlockable weapons. Here are my stats. I rarely play engy or sniper. Those are my top two because a friend borrowed my account for a week once and he plays those. I'll probably get the stats reset (you can do that again, can't you?)