Team Fortress 2 Hands-On

[stanr]

The problem with having all the choice within each class is that each class ends up feeling too similar.

Not really: you can make more choice available within the boundaries of your class, without any similarity among classes.

And grenades, outside of clan play, are nothing more than a spam weapon. Most players in any game throw grenades at the first sign of combat, with nothing more than the hope that it'll kill someone because that would be "cool". The fact that it takes so much luck to actually use grenades effectively is a testament to how poorly they integrate themselves into a game based around skill, accuracy, and teamwork.

I played mostly pubs, and I got to tell you, people knew to run away from a live grenade. So no, it's only luck if the other guy is not mindful. There was a fair bit of grenade spam, but most of the time I actually found these grenade exchanges to be quite fun, requiring fancy footwork to dance around.

Furthermore, the fact that you can "choose" to be a combat medic in TFC shows that TFC, not TF2, is the game in question that has homogenized classes. TF2 is making each class MORE unique, MORE defined, by making combat with each class appropriately difficult or easy, and giving each class distinct abilities.

Um, no. Combat medic is a *style* of playing medic. You still get Medic's weapons, medic's speed and regeneration. If a game cannot support multiple styles of play for the same class, it lacks depth.

Think of it like this - there's a huge sentry gun blocking an entrance to the enemy base. If all the classes can remove sentry guns, there's no incentive for one to be a class which is the "best" at taking them down.
But if only a couple classes are really able to take down sentries, then you need to make a choice - continue with your current class, unable to take down sentries, but be better-prepared for the combat afterwards? Or choose the class that can destroy the sentry, allowing for your team to get through, but making combat for you that much more difficult?

I remember playing some TF-like Quake mod (Weapons Factory?) where only one class could take down a sentry. The gameplay was super-frustrating, because in a pub game, you really couldn't count on some random guy of appropriate class to destroy the SG if he feels like prancing around inside your base instead.

The bottom line is, all classes should be able to take out a sentry with varying degrees of difficulty (or in cooperation). Otherwise, the game is unbalanced, and no amount of skill will get you to capture because you can't get past that SG. And no, I don't want to switch classes just to destroy the SG -- I want to stay who I am.

 

[Stigmata]

Alright, so you're saying TF2 will be unbalanced because teamwork will be required to take down a sentry gun. It'll be unbalanced because teamwork will be required to keep a Medic alive and healing your teammates.

Giving every class combat abilities will not keep the game balanced. Teamwork should be the central focus of a game called Team Fortress. Valve is making the game more team-oriented.

In all honesty, I can't see you enjoying TF2. TF2 is not TFC, so just accept it, get over it, and go wait for Fortress Forever or something. At least that game is still stuck in the 90's.

 

[stanr]

Alright, so you're saying TF2 will be unbalanced because teamwork will be required to take down a sentry gun. It'll be unbalanced because teamwork will be required to keep a Medic alive and healing your teammates.

Giving every class combat abilities will not keep the game balanced. Teamwork should be the central focus of a game called Team Fortress. Valve is making the game more team-oriented.

That's great, I'm for it -- except there's a tension between teams playing as teams in a clan, and people playing for selfish fun and enjoyment on public servers. I guess there should be a middle path which allows you to capture the point even if all others on your teams are Snipers? And have some fun on your own, even if no one else is helping?

 

[Stigmata]

Well the genius is, selfish fun on pub servers will lead to copious amounts of death. Once a few players start working together as a class-varied group, they'll walk all over the other team, forcing the other team to work together, which will force the stragglers on both teams to pick good classes and help their team...

 

[sensai]

I get it...Valve is now focusing on the Team aspect, disregarding the Fortress part in its name. Awesome.

BTW, here's a video demonstrating the 'uselessness' of a scout in TFC play.

 

[Cole]

and how are they disregarding the fortress part?

 

[Stigmata]

I get it...Valve is now focusing on the Team aspect, disregarding the Fortress part in its name. Awesome.

That doesn't make any sense.

BTW, here's a video demonstrating the 'uselessness' of a scout in TFC play.

Nobody said the scout was useless. Maybe that just shows that the scout is overpowered and the game and its features/exploits need to be updated, changed, removed, or re-balanced in order to make the game better?

 

[sensai]

Maybe that just shows that the scout is overpowered and the game and its features/exploits need to be updated, changed, removed, or re-balanced in order to make the game better?

You're kidding me, right? Overpowered?! Hardly. Exploits? Hand-held conc jumping has been in the game since day 1 and Valve developers know about it because some guys in the now dead |404| showed them the ability. They've had ample time to make changes to the game, so if it was considered an exploit - you'd expect them to remove the feature many years ago.

So please explain to me how a video highlighting the power of a scout (which Walker stated to be underpowered and underplayed in TFC). I love how you assume that just because Valve says something about TFC, its the truth.

Sheeples, its what will make me rich one day.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Nobody said the scout was useless.

Uhh.... didn't ROBIN WALKER say the scout was useless in his interview? Oh yeah, he did.

sensai was making a point - they're making all these changes in the game, assuming it'll be for the best, when in fact they have no ****ing clue about how the game is played.

While we're linking videos, check out Last Dinosaur 2, the greatest TFC movie ever... and then consider that pretty much all the moves you see in this video will be gone. It may prove itself to be kinda fun, but it will be DUMBED DOWN FOR SURE. This a FACT, you can't argue with it. They DID dumb down the game. They REMOVED everything that required skill. Maybe TF2 will turn out the best game ever.... bottom line is, instead of maintaining the skill-related moves and focusing on some kind of tutorial or help system, they just decided to go with the lowest common denominator. And that's sad.

 

[Kyorisu]

The bottom line is, all classes should be able to take out a sentry with varying degrees of difficulty (or in cooperation). Otherwise, the game is unbalanced, and no amount of skill will get you to capture because you can't get past that SG. And no, I don't want to switch classes just to destroy the SG -- I want to stay who I am.

Have you ever played a BF game? Tried to take a tank on as assault? Yeah it doesn't work. But people seem to be fine in those games.

 

[Cole]

(or in cooperation).

Which is very how well it could work in TF2. You have one class that can't do well against a Sentry, then the medic helps the guy out and it gets taken out.

Valve is playtesting the game. This game may not be in the same spirit as TFC, but you can expect it to be very fun.

I think here's the way to look at it: Valve are taking a lot of the single-person skill out of the game and focusing on the working as a team element.

 

[Stigmata]

Uhh.... didn't ROBIN WALKER say the scout was useless in his interview? Oh yeah, he did.

Aside from the exploit abuse, yeah.

 

[riles]

Christ its going to be a new game. To me, it looks like they are trying to make what TFC was originally meant to be. Removing 'everything skill related' was what? conc jumping and bunny hopping? I bet there are going to be some new exploits in TF2.

And how can you say that they have no clue how the game is played? They know exactly how the game is played; they're just not trying to make the SAME game.

 

[Hyperion2010]

Seems like the old TFC players around here played it like it was team deathmatch, which was "I can only kill half the people in the server" instead of as a teamwork centric game. Teamwork is FUN and IMO it provides a more rewarding gameplay experience.

EDIT: LOL at the last dinosaur 2 video, but honestly, how many people ever got THAT good at tfc without months of practice? Also, I really didnt see much "team" work to get the flag, mostly crazy albiet very funny flying hopping individual players trying to get the flag. Getting the flag half way and then having some other crazy hop it the rest of the way doesnt quite seem like real teamwork.

 

[Jintor]

Wow, the Team might actually mean something for once - and all the monkeys are getting raged.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Well, you know, let's take the next Mario game and replace Mario with a new character.

Why in the world would anyone be enraged because of that? It's a brand new game after all... it's Mario 36, if you want to keep playing with Mario, go back to your stupid Super Mario Bros.

 

[sensai]

Seems like the old TFC players around here played it like it was team deathmatch, which was "I can only kill half the people in the server" instead of as a teamwork centric game. Teamwork is FUN and IMO it provides a more rewarding gameplay experience.

Teamwork is fun, I agree. That's why I loved TFC so much because on both offense and defense teamwork and communication were key to be dominant.

EDIT: LOL at the last dinosaur 2 video, but honestly, how many people ever got THAT good at tfc without months of practice? Also, I really didnt see much "team" work to get the flag, mostly crazy albiet very funny flying hopping individual players trying to get the flag. Getting the flag half way and then having some other crazy hop it the rest of the way doesnt quite seem like real teamwork.

There is a ton of "team" work required to get flags, especially in timing. Sure, one person gets the flag, but you have to depend on your other people to take people out, get people distracted, take down sgs, blow the pipes, etc. Sure the video shows a lot of solo stuff, but most AVI footage is of ridiculous runs that don't happen every time you go to get a flag. Besides, it takes months of practice to get good at any game.

 

[Jintor]

Well, you know, let's take the next Mario game and replace Mario with a new character.

Why in the world would anyone be enraged because of that? It's a brand new game after all... it's Mario 36, if you want to keep playing with Mario, go back to your stupid Super Mario Bros.

Right. Except Team Fortress still appears to be present. Analogy is b0rked.

I still think if you don't like it, then... don't play it, or don't buy it.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Nope, it's not "b0rked" - whatever that means. It's spot on. All the different grenades were a major part of TF's "personality". Removing them is like removing all the classes, or the CTF gameplay. Oh wait, they're removing CTF too already

If you still fail to see the analogy, then it's like removing all the power ups from Mario - the feather, the flower, the mushroom, yoshi, etc and then telling people "Whoa! This is the new Mario! We removed half of the game! How cool is that?!? A real step forward!"

The way I see it, the 4 main cornerstones of TF are:

- 9 classes
- grenades
- ctf
- crazy movement

They removed the grenades, are almost ditching CTF, and ****ed with the movement. So I'm sorry but no, this is no TF, no matter how great it turns out to be.

And as for the "if you don't like it, don't play it"... well, duh. That's what I fear will happen to most people, and that's why I'm so concerned. Remember Ricochet and Deathmatch Classic? Yeah, those were a fun little distraction for like 5 minutes, and then everyone returned to their more "serious" games. Gee, I wonder if the same thing will happen with TF2 - a game which sounds like there will be nothing new to learn after 5 minutes of play. This game is lacking DEPTH. They're turning it into "run around and shoot" and nothing more a la CS. Is it so hard to realize that?

And there's still no logical explanation to why they're keeping the DAMN TELEPORTERS.

 

[Jintor]

If it turns out to be fun, then what the hell's the problem?

If it bothers you that much insist they market it under a different name. "Fun Shooter 2004059" or whatever. And since you hate it so much, what do you care whether people play it or not?

 

[Stigmata]

I'll try and make this as quick and as easy-to-understand as possible.

Nope, it's not "b0rked" - whatever that means. It's spot on. All the different grenades were a major part of TF's "personality". Removing them is like removing all the classes

Except it's not, since we've already been through how giving every class similar grenades homogenizes the classes AND puts emphasis on spam attacks, which is NOT good for game design.

or the CTF gameplay. Oh wait, they're removing CTF too already

Oh wait, they're calling it something else. Holy shit! There's no way capture the documents will be in any way similar to capture the flag! Sure, you're still applying teamwork skills and planning for an attack against an enemy base in order to capture an objective item, but documents?! **** that. :dozey:

If you still fail to see the analogy, then it's like removing all the power ups from Mario - the feather, the flower, the mushroom, yoshi, etc and then telling people "Whoa! This is the new Mario! We removed half of the game! How cool is that?!? A real step forward!"

No it's not. It's more like taking Mario 2, removing all the redundant powerups, making a wholly better-designed game with better levels, and then releasing it as Super Mario World.

The way I see it, the 4 main cornerstones of TF are:

- 9 classes
- grenades
- ctf
- crazy movement

And this is, in a nutshell, why you are not in any way qualified to comment on the gameplay design of TF2.

They removed the grenades, are almost ditching CTF, and ****ed with the movement. So I'm sorry but no, this is no TF, no matter how great it turns out to be.

So TF2 "isn't" TF because they removed a couple weapons, changed the name of a game mode, and fixed exploits?

And as for the "if you don't like it, don't play it"... well, duh. That's what I fear will happen to most people, and that's why I'm so concerned. Remember Ricochet and Deathmatch Classic? Yeah, those were a fun little distraction for like 5 minutes, and then everyone returned to their more "serious" games. Gee, I wonder if the same thing will happen with TF2 - a game which sounds like there will be nothing new to learn after 5 minutes of play. This game is lacking DEPTH. They're turning it into "run around and shoot" and nothing more a la CS. Is it so hard to realize that?

I'd advise you to, you know, read the article before making statements that can be refuted by reading the article. Then again, I wasn't aware that making classes fundamentally different made a game less deep, but hey, you learn something every day, right?

Or, I don't know, maybe wait to play it before dismissing it. Then again, seeing as how Valve is getting rid of your precious movement bugs that weren't supposed to be there in the first place, you'd probably go into exploit-abuse withdrawal.

 

[Formaldehyde]

we've already been through how giving every class similar grenades homogenizes the classes AND puts emphasis on spam attacks, which is NOT good for game design.

The biggest problem is not with the frag grenades. I guess we could all adapt if they removed just the frag grenades. But all the class specific grenades?? HOW can anyone say it homogenizes the classes?? It's the complete oposite. Engineers with EMP's. Scouts with concs. Spy with gas grenades. Pyro with the napalm grenade. All of this adds a LOT to the game, and removing something which isn't "broken" does not make any god damn sense. Engineers now don't have EMP's. Yiippeeee FUUUUNNN.

Oh wait, they're calling it something else. Holy shit! There's no way capture the documents will be in any way similar to capture the flag! Sure, you're still applying teamwork skills and planning for an attack against an enemy base in order to capture an objective item, but documents?! **** that. :dozey:

First of all, you need to work on your sarcasm. Second, out of the 5 announced maps, how many will feature CTD type of gameplay? One. But that's not a big deal, since I'm sure in no time the community mappers will fill this void with countless CTD or CTF maps or whatever. And I actually like different types of gameplay... but the fact of the matter is that CTF is one of the main defining characteristics of TF.

And this is, in a nutshell, why you are not in any way qualified to comment on the gameplay design of TF2.

Oh, I see. And why are YOU so qualified? How many hours did you play? How many clans did you lead? How many championships did your clan win under your leadership? I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, but if you say I'm not qualified to talk about it, you better back yourself up. If you're so better qualified than me to comment about the TF gameplay, then please, enlighten me. Which are the main chacteristics of the game? What would you say that DEFINES the TF gameplay? I surely must be missing something if it's not the nine classes, CTF, different grenades and the movement.

Then again, seeing as how Valve is getting rid of your precious movement bugs that weren't supposed to be there in the first place, you'd probably go into exploit-abuse withdrawal.

They are not "movement bugs". They are MEANT to be in the game. Did you play QWTF?? Bunnyhopping and concjumping were already there. They decided to keep or even INCLUDE it in TFC ON PURPOSE. Plus, if it was not meant to be a part of the game, they could have just removed them in the past 8 years. And they did remove other movement bugs, like when you could fall down the elevator shaft in 2fort without making a noise. But I don't suppose you were playing when this bug was around...

And for the record, I hate bunnyhopping, don't even know how to do it. But am I complaining because scouts fly past me? Am I calling it a "movement bug" and demanding it's removal from the game? No, it's a skill, if I can't do it, it's my own damn fault. If it really bothered me that much, I would practice until I got it right. That's, my friends, is what keeps a game alive for so long. Everyone likes a challenge. Well, maybe not everyone. Who knows, maybe it'll all be for the best. I actually hope so. But they're removing many things for the wrong reasons. It's the lowest common denominator thing. Some noobs get their asses kicked by some skilled players. A reasonable answer to the problem would be to somehow encourage the noobs to practice and evolve until THEY were the ones kicking ass. But no, their answer to the problem is just removing everything and lowering everyone down to the noob level. AWESOME.

 

[ríomhaire]

From reading the posts of "verteran" and "expert" TFC players I have learned that the cornerstone of gameplay is physics exploits and grenades that bounce very irratically...I am glad that I never got into this game.

 

[poo?]

I think my view is a bit different than most everyone here in that I don't think they've changed it enough.

I agree with the changes to the grenades and taking out the movement exploits because when that stuff started to become rampant in TFC, that's when the player and server counts started dropping.

The problem I have with their changes is that they seem to have taken things out that made things too difficult for new players and even some veterans like myself while not adding anything new to flesh out the much needed depth in a multiplayer game like this. It sounds like they've gone from one extreme of learning curve to the other now, and that worries me.

I was also really hoping they would move toward objective based gametypes and really push the 60's spy feel they have going on. Like using the spy to sneak into a base and collect enemy info on some strategic object in the map and then using the other classes in similar sorts of ways to complete all the objectives. Now that sounds like a sequel to a class based game to me. What they have now is more like a remake, which is fine I guess, but how long do I have to wait for Valve to make a new multiplayer game with fresh gameplay?

Also, 6 maps on release is pretty disappointing for a multiplayer only game. Mod community or not, if you don't have a healthy dose of official maps, most people will get bored quickly.

 

[stanr]

From reading the posts of "verteran" and "expert" TFC players I have learned that the cornerstone of gameplay is physics exploits and grenades that bounce very irratically...I am glad that I never got into this game.

Yes, there were physics exploits, but that was not the "core" of Team Fortress. It was possible to have crazy movement (as per Formaldehyde) even without bunny hopping and conc jumping -- all the rocket jumping and scout crazylegs stuff.

The grenades never bounced erratically. They were deterministic.

All I'm saying is that TF2 should have class-specific grenades, and/or a second weapon that is a viable candidate for a gun. If I spend 99% of my time using the same gun and doing the same thing with it, this will bore me to death. Give me more choice. Give me non-"damage on direct hit" weapon effects, or secondary fire modes, or cool grenades to throw.

I also agree with Formaldehyde about removing one of the cornerstones of TF gameplay -- removing grenades is like removing one of the two buttons in the original Super Mario Bros 2 on the NES -- the one that speeds you up.

 

[Laivasse]

I couldn't care less about conc jumping, but the lack of class-specific grens seems a shame. Nevertheless, I kind of trust Valve enough to believe that they won't remove such a considerable aspect of gameplay without restoring the gameplay balance in other ways. I'm reserving judgement, but we'll just have to see. Even the thought of playing TFC in Source with all the cel-shaded antix is still enough to grease my goat.

 

[Cruor]

So TF2 "isn't" TF because they removed a couple weapons, changed the name of a game mode, and fixed exploits?

What he means and a view that many hardcore TF fans agree on is that Team Fortress isn't as much a game title as it is a game genre.

Taking away key elements of it would be like taking away leveling up your character in an RPG etc. it just doesn't work.

Imho I think that Valve has taken away more then they've added to TF2 and the way I see it this won't have any longevity and people will most likely tire of it after a few runs, and go back to their other games as was said before.

TFC kept me coming back, partly for the team play. I most often played a good team abiding medic healing my team-mates in between hopping off to the enemy-base, inflict some decease in a quick flashby, pick up the flag, conc back to base, cap the flag and heal my team-mates, play some defence medic and rinse, wipe and repeat. All in a day's worth.

That's what made it fun, I could do whatever I wanted with my medic class and still think that he was a genuine unique class.

 

[Stigmata]

And this is where I declare there is no hope for the hundreds-strong TFC community.

You don't want "just a graphics update", but you want the gameplay to stay the same. You want the game to be better, but you don't think any changes have been good. You want things fixed, but you don't want to see any of the exploits removed.

What you want is TFC. You have TFC. You also have Fortress Forever.

TF2 will not live up to your expectations, because you are expecting something that cannot logically be made.

 

[riles]

What you want is TFC. You have TFC. You also have Fortress Forever.

Exactly. Thats why I fail to see why there is so much arguing! If you are excited about TF2, Be excited! If dissappointed, well remember TF2 is not replacing TFC. These people are acting like TFC is going to be deleted from their computer once TF2 comes out. AND there is Fortress Forever, which seems to be exactly what the negative nancys want.

 

[Jintor]

EXACTLY!

Yeeeeeeeeesh.

 

[stanr]

And this is where I declare there is no hope for the hundreds-strong TFC community.

Sorry, but who are you exactly to declare anything for fans of TFC? Jesus Christ? It's not even hundreds-strong, it is millions strong: in the heyday TFC was way more popular than Counter-Strike.

Even Robin Walker (who happens to be one of the fathers of TF) does not declare anything -- he has ideas, but he listens to the community and the feedbacks from playtests: first from the testers, and then from wide-area players. He might listen to the fans, too, which I sincerely hope he does.

Likewise, you can't just tell others to shut up and stick to TFC: this is a forum where people which carried hope for TF2 inside of them for almost ten years get to speak. And yes, I believe our opinions are at least as important as the playtesters'.

You don't want "just a graphics update", but you want the gameplay to stay the same. You want the game to be better, but you don't think any changes have been good. You want things fixed, but you don't want to see any of the exploits removed.

Well, there is such as thing as an incremental change: it is possible to add without taking away. Yes, I wouldn't mind starting with the same gameplay, and adding to it. Removing physics/movement stuff is ok, but I think the line should be drawn between fixing exploits and removing meaningful gameplay choices, like grenades. What I want is "more TF" and not "less TF." I think the parallel could be drawn to "Deus Ex 2: Invisible War," where too many things were removed from the game (compared to Deus Ex 1) to "streamline" the experience, and as a result the game got boring very quickly.

What you want is TFC. You have TFC. You also have Fortress Forever.

TF2 will not live up to your expectations, because you are expecting something that cannot logically be made.

I think you're being a bit extremist. There's nothing that "logically" cannot be made when it comes to game design, unless it involves too much computation.

 

[Jintor]

Are you telling Valve directly? That's the first step to getting what you want done.

 

[Stigmata]

Sorry, but who are you exactly to declare anything for fans of TFC? Jesus Christ? It's not even hundreds-strong, it is millions strong: in the heyday TFC was way more popular than Counter-Strike.

Even Robin Walker (who happens to be one of the fathers of TF) does not declare anything -- he has ideas, but he listens to the community and the feedbacks from playtests: first from the testers, and then from wide-area players. He might listen to the fans, too, which I sincerely hope he does.

Likewise, you can't just tell others to shut up and stick to TFC: this is a forum where people which carried hope for TF2 inside of them for almost ten years get to speak. And yes, I believe our opinions are at least as important as the playtesters'.



Well, there is such as thing as an incremental change: it is possible to add without taking away. Yes, I wouldn't mind starting with the same gameplay, and adding to it. Removing physics/movement stuff is ok, but I think the line should be drawn between fixing exploits and removing meaningful gameplay choices, like grenades. What I want is "more TF" and not "less TF." I think the parallel could be drawn to "Deus Ex 2: Invisible War," where too many things were removed from the game (compared to Deus Ex 1) to "streamline" the experience, and as a result the game got boring very quickly.



I think you're being a bit extremist. There's nothing that "logically" cannot be made when it comes to game design, unless it involves too much computation.

Look, what I'm saying is, anyone who's a hardcore TFC player has built up this imaginary sequel in their mind which is perfect in every way - better graphics, better gameplay, better levels - yet somehow retains the exact same gameplay and visual style as TFC. This game will never exist, because it is impossible for a game to change, yet stay exactly the same. You know as well as I do that any change to the gameplay would have at least a portion of the TFC community up in arms over Valve "destroying" some aspect of the game.

 

[sensai]

You don't want "just a graphics update", but you want the gameplay to stay the same. You want the game to be better, but you don't think any changes have been good. You want things fixed, but you don't want to see any of the exploits removed.

Please tell me how it is an exploit. Yes, for CS bunnyhopping was most definately an exploit, based on the way the gameplay is set up (someone at your side of the map in 10 secs killing everyone is not fun). I fail to see how it is an exploit in TFC, considering its been a part of the game for quite some time. Back in the day, you could get a HW up to scout speed and faster, but they put a speed cap - 170% of your class's speed. Clear it isn't an exploit because if so - Valve would have taken it out completely instead of capping it. I'm pretty sure they would have removed handheld concs too if that were the case.

But please feel free and try and refute my statements and tell me why they are exploits.

 

[Stigmata]

Please tell me how it is an exploit. Yes, for CS bunnyhopping was most definately an exploit, based on the way the gameplay is set up (someone at your side of the map in 10 secs killing everyone is not fun). I fail to see how it is an exploit in TFC, considering its been a part of the game for quite some time. Back in the day, you could get a HW up to scout speed and faster, but they put a speed cap - 170% of your class's speed. Clear it isn't an exploit because if so - Valve would have taken it out completely instead of capping it. I'm pretty sure they would have removed handheld concs too if that were the case.

But please feel free and try and refute my statements and tell me why they are exploits.

Okay.

For all intents and purposes, they are exploits. To be 100% literal, though: To the hardcore TFC community, they are "part of the game", but to the rest of the world they are exploits.

In the first versions of TFC, these exploits were exploits, known to few and not much of a problem. But once everyone started finding and using the exploits en masse, especially in the competitive scene, Valve wasn't about to fix the exploits and single-handedly destroy the strategies of thousands of players, costing people championships and months of practice. And the last thing Valve wanted was to oust the hardcore and/or competitive community. So they kept these "exploits", which invariably became "part of the game".

[side note: The speed cap was just an attempt to keep each class' relative speed intact, as Heavies should never ever be faster than Scouts. It is basically a rare exception to the above.]

Now, bringing this back to TF2 - if Valve is bringing the TF franchise back into the mainstream (don't even try and argue that it already is the mainstream), these bugs that are "part of the game" to the TFC players suddenly become "exploits" to everyone who is new to the series. New players see exploits being abused, new players are put off, new players don't play the game, new players are less apt to buy expansions and/or TF3.

Besides which, the exploits were never meant to be there in the first place, so the resultant gameplay experience in TFC ended up being fairly removed from Robin's target gameplay concept.

 

[COALslaw]

So the reason why TFC was a smashing success that promised competitive gameplay, was because of an accidentally created glitch? Doubt it dude.

 

[Stigmata]

Then refute me. Otherwise my statement stands.

But either way, TF2 is going to be different from TFC. Fundamentally different. Like it or not, Valve is trying to take an approach to videogames that does not parallel the roster updates of Madden games.

 

[Jintor]

So the reason why TFC was a smashing success that promised competitive gameplay, was because of an accidentally created glitch? Doubt it dude.

Hahahahaha... Skiing... Tribes.

 

[stanr]

I agree 100% with Stigmata regarding bunnyhopping and conc'ing. In my time, have seen _really_ crazy stuff done with scouts and medics working as a team (that Last Dinosaur 2 movie is kids' play in comparison). There's double concing (using 2 concs from different players, exploding at the same time), and the horizontal (or, if you wish, vertical) displacement you can get is enormous. Who needs teleporters if you can be on the other side of the map in less than a second?

 

[achilles_d]

New Steam update

Friday, April 6 2007

Recently we invited members of the press out to Valve to play Team Fortress 2. Game Informer has published a huge story broken up into three parts. You can read part one, which focuses on the history of Team Fortress. Part two is centered around some of the new features people will get to see in Team Fortress 2. The third part is a write up of Game Informer's play experience based on a match we played with them for about two hours. Apparently some people around the office didn't "get the memo" about going easy on the press in the playtest. We thought the article might be in jeopardy when our guys playing as spies repeatedly backstabbed the reviewer playing as a sniper. Luckily, we showed him how to clean up by placing sentry guns as an engineer... Spy soup is best served cold.