TF2 or TFC:S?

[Leonard]

I'm not trying to be a troll here,

I seriously want to know if there have been any other improvements over TFC in TF2.

The old plans for TF2 had features that, in my opinion, changed it enough to call it a sequel. There was going to be a Ranger, a commander, support ect. if I remember correctly.

Now we just have the same classes, and it looks like we'll have the same maps too. The video's that they have released seem to be the old 2fort map.

From what I've seen so far, it looks like Valve is doing what they did with CS and DOD, just making a source version of the original game.

I know they can name their game what ever they want, but VALVE please do not mislead us into thinking that this is a true sequel by naming the game TF2 instead of TF:S.

 

[eraser]

GI: You’ve said you’re bringing back the original nine classes. What about new classes?

Lombardi: Yeah, what we’re doing is we’re bringing back the original nine and we’re updating all of them and augmenting a couple of them. The most radical change will be to the medic, in terms of his capabilities and his offensive and defensive behavior. Some, like the heavy, will remain very faithful to the originals. Then there are some in between that have varying degrees of tweaks.

We looked at and talked about the commander class when we originally talked about TF2, and there was a good idea there about having somebody who was off the battlefield who could assist or give orders or that type of thing and we’re still struggling to come up with the right place for the things that we want to do there. There won’t be a commander class, per se, in that that’s the boss and they’re giving you orders. But we do still think it would be cool to have somebody who’s the eyes and ears of the team and was a different role there. So we’re experimenting with that and some other classes. Whether or not those make version one or release subsequently is still to be determined.

GI: Are most of the classes going to retain the same feature set they had in Team Fortress Classic?

Lombardi: Again, the medic is completely overhauled, and some of them are very faithful. That’s true both in terms of offensive and defensive arsenal as well. In some cases we really saw some opportunities to really leverage the Source engine and to change stuff up. You saw a little bit of that there in the demo with some of his new capabilities, some of the ways he’s able to better interact using that technology. The medic was something that Robin Walker, who’s the co-creator of Team Fortress as you know, was always a class that he frustrated with and felt like the way it had been executed on wasn’t what he and John really had in their brains. So they’ve taken a lot of time on that to change that up, and as you’ve probably noticed that’s one surprised that we’re keeping for later to reveal what that’s going to be about.

Well, there's some change.

 

[Leonard]

I haven't see any changes except for the graphics. That is why Counter-Strike: Source is named Counter Strike: Source, and not Counter-Strike 2

 

[Cole]

You haven't played it yet either. I'm sure at release it wil be similar to TFC and over time Valve will add more and more things in it.

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

TBH they can call it TF2 with the info we are given+shown. There is some changes quite noticeable in the trailers. The reason why CS:S and DoD:S might not be a "2" might be because they plan on making another game sometime in the future.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Well, in the new trailer, Demoman tosses dynamite, and Spy can "cloak" himself.

 

[Rupertvdb]

It's not even out. Why not save this kind of debate until you've played the thing.

 

[bigburpco]

I know they can name their game what ever they want, but VALVE please do not mislead us into thinking that this is a true sequel by naming the game TF2 instead of TF:S.

Guess what? It's a true sequel.

*gasp* I didn't happen to know that! I swear I didn't see the Demo throw banana-bomb-like dynamite! I didn't see the sniper not have the red dot! And the spy's cloak! And the interview with the revamped medic! And the scout's improved speed and new bat!

I was absolutely clueless!

 

[eraser]

Guess what? It's a true sequel.

*gasp* I didn't happen to know that! I swear I didn't see the Demo throw banana-bomb-like dynamite! I didn't see the sniper not have the red dot! And the spy's cloak! And the interview with the revamped medic! And the scout's improved speed and new bat!

I was absolutely clueless!

 

[Absinthe]

Yes, let's all make stupid premature judgments about a game given the following circumstances:

-A grand total of two videos have been released.
-The abilities and augmentations of the class characters has been far from fully disclosed.
-Valve has already said that it's still WIP and are still trying out new classes and realizations of existing ones.
-We have seen one map.
-We have seen no actual real-time gameplay.

This seems like excellent criteria to base a judgment off of. I don't you think you could find criteria any more ****ing perfect.

TF2:BoA is dead. Long live TF2.

 

[Darkside55]

Well, in the new trailer, Demoman tosses dynamite

That dynamite was the new MIRV, looked like. Behaved in the exact same manner.

Eh, everyone knows how I feel about TF2 so I'll be succinct: successor to TFC, but not TF2.

 

[Leonard]

Why not save this kind of debate until you've played the thing.

Because I've wasted too much money on too many games over the years that were not what they promised. In all fairness I am being a bit premature in my judgement, but I am doing this for planning purposes.

in reply to the others,
To me, the dynmamite looked like the MIRV grenade, nothing new. It seems like everything are just minor tweaks. I'll admit, the spy going invisible is a cool feature, albiet much like the old feigning feature.

So far, compared to other sequels, though, TF2 is still lacking, but we will see in the times ahead.

 

[Vegeta897]

First of all, who the hell wrote a rulebook saying a game needed new content (gameplay wise) to be called a sequel?

Not to mention the new features that TF2 DOES offer, would you mind telling me what you see when you look at the COMPLETELY REVAMPED graphics? "Old 2fort map"? I definitely see the 2fort map we all know and love, but old? Wtf? EVERYTHING visually is COMPLETELY redone, and done very creatively and well might I add. This is no HL:S.

If Valve wants to call it TF2, they can do whatever they freakin' want, there are no "rules" as you seem to think, even though I personally as well as many others think this has more than enough new content to be called TF2.

 

[Darkside55]

Everything is visually redone in CS:S, look at militia. But they don't call it CS2.

Also, "more than enough new content to be called TF2?" From the total of what, two videos we've seen without any actual gameplay? (See, that argument works in reverse too ) So far, new things are spy cloak and the promise of a "revamped medic." OK, so basically Valve took an old spy glitch that I could do in TFC anyway (for a time before a patch fixed it) and made it into the spy's means of camouflage, rather than the clever use of changing skins, and they're making a medic act more like a medic. That's great. Now aside from that I'd really like to view some of this "new content" people are talking about. I'm going to preempt though and say someone will reply with the aforementioned "updates" and "new visual style." Some great changes, those.

This is the spiritual successor to Team Fortress. I'm not going to argue that point. But it's also not TF2. We all know the reason WHY it's not TF2 (as in BoA), and why the game's been changed. And they can call it TF2 all they like, but you know it's TF:S. Don't even try and say that it isn't, because you know it is. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing! I've said a couple times, I love TFC probably more than any of you know...hell I'd go as far as to say I love TFC more than anyone on this forum, you can believe that. But this game is Team Fortress Source, not TF2. That's just the bottom line. They can call it what they want, but there's no changing what it is.

Edit: And holy crap, with this post, I am 1,337. This is a leet post; none of you can argue with it. Awesome. I'm glad I hit this milestone talking about TFC.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

It's called TF2 because it's what the project that the TF2 team were working on ended up being. I don't see the point in arguing semantics.

It's TF2. It's not TF:S. It's TF2. Saying otherwise is just plain dumb. You may feel that it's not TF2, but you'd be wrong.

 

[Noobulon]

I kinda agree with Darkside55...
But it makes me wonder how much could have been changed in the new TF, before TFC die-hards started saying "this isn't TF any more".

Valve are trying to hit a difficult balance. Some people want TF2 to be a new game altogether - but if it had been, would it still have been a TF game?

I guess it would be like Valve making a "Counter-Strike 2" which is a massive, ambitious thing entirely unlike CS - what would be the point putting the CS name on it?

Perhaps these types of games (which are played at very high skill levels) just aren't suited to radical reinvention.
They could be better off when left to evolve gradually, through generations of patches and remakes

 

[Vegeta897]

I just don't think Team Fortess is the sort of game that NEEDS completely revamped features to be considered a sequel. It's not like a game that tells a story. It's a game based on a certain playstyle, with certain mechanics that made the people fall in love with the game in the first place! They change that, and it's not TF anymore!

Just like the new Unreal Tournament games. New graphics, sounds, some changes, but it's the same game.

And I repeat, there is no freakin' rulebook, who cares.

 

[Asus]

I just don't think Team Fortess is the sort of game that NEEDS completely revamped features to be considered a sequel. It's not like a game that tells a story. It's a game based on a certain playstyle, with certain mechanics that made the people fall in love with the game in the first place! They change that, and it's not TF anymore!

Just like the new Unreal Tournament games. New graphics, sounds, some changes, but it's the same game.

And I repeat, there is no freakin' rulebook, who cares.

I agree. It's enough of a change for Valve to call it a sequel. :frog:

 

[Leonard]

Noobulon, does your birthday fall between September 24 to October 23?

It's a game based on a certain playstyle, with certain mechanics that made the people fall in love with the game in the first place! They change that, and it's not TF anymore!

All I'm asking for is a little more variety. Customizable sentry guns, more classes, maybe a pyro grenade that catches people on fire. Valve just needs to get a little more imagination in my opinion, quit playing it safe once in a while.

And I repeat, there is no freakin' rulebook, who cares.

No, there is no rule book, but there is a certain sense of morality and honor that you gain as you age. Personally, I don't buy from companies that make the same game over and over, slapping a roman numeral behind the title.

That's right, I've been Boycotting EA for three years now.

Without our ideals we have nothing...

 

[Noobulon]

Noobulon, does your birthday fall between September 24 to October 23?

...

eh?

 

[Absinthe]

Valve just needs to get a little more imagination in my opinion, quit playing it safe once in a while.

You're joking, right? Man, these forums seem to be really picking up in the department of ignorant comments.

And what in the shit does morality and aging have to do with anything?

WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON HERE?

 

[bigburpco]

maybe a pyro grenade that catches people on fire.

Exists.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Everything is visually redone in CS:S, look at militia. But they don't call it CS2.

Also, "more than enough new content to be called TF2?" From the total of what, two videos we've seen without any actual gameplay? (See, that argument works in reverse too ) So far, new things are spy cloak and the promise of a "revamped medic." OK, so basically Valve took an old spy glitch that I could do in TFC anyway (for a time before a patch fixed it) and made it into the spy's means of camouflage, rather than the clever use of changing skins, and they're making a medic act more like a medic. That's great. Now aside from that I'd really like to view some of this "new content" people are talking about. I'm going to preempt though and say someone will reply with the aforementioned "updates" and "new visual style." Some great changes, those.

This is the spiritual successor to Team Fortress. I'm not going to argue that point. But it's also not TF2. We all know the reason WHY it's not TF2 (as in BoA), and why the game's been changed. And they can call it TF2 all they like, but you know it's TF:S. Don't even try and say that it isn't, because you know it is. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing! I've said a couple times, I love TFC probably more than any of you know...hell I'd go as far as to say I love TFC more than anyone on this forum, you can believe that. But this game is Team Fortress Source, not TF2. That's just the bottom line. They can call it what they want, but there's no changing what it is.

Edit: And holy crap, with this post, I am 1,337. This is a leet post; none of you can argue with it. Awesome. I'm glad I hit this milestone talking about TFC.

What about the Demoman's dynimite move? Thats new. We don't know what the Pyro's getting. They've only just announced it, give 'em time to unveil everything.

You're joking, right? Man, these forums seem to be really picking up in the department of ignorant comments.

And what in the shit does morality and aging have to do with anything?

WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON HERE?

Beautiful. Sigged, just f***ing beautiful. :farmer:

 

[eraser]

You're joking, right? Man, these forums seem to be really picking up in the department of ignorant comments.

And what in the shit does morality and aging have to do with anything?

WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON HERE?

I was going to comment on that, but you beat my ass, with glass :O.

Troof x1000.

Hey, Leonard, what do you call the new style of graphics? They're really playing it safe considering most of the people who don't like it, WHICH MAY JUST HAPPEN TO BE BECAUSE OF THE HUGE GRAPHICAL CHANGES.

Personally, I don't understand what people are holding on to here. Nostalgia?

Everything that's been changed has been changed because Valve feels it'll be better. Why would they put out something sub-par? Have they ever done that? Playing it safe would have been continuing with the old TF2, and ultimately phailing.

Phailing hard.

If they felt the old gameplay was the way they really wished it to be, BoA would still be the main plan.

 

[Fat Tony!]

Eh why does it matter?

Either way it certainly has some differences but we just haven't seen them all yet. You need to wait and see...

Certain things just CANT change since it wouldn't be team fortress anymore.. Lets just wait and see what else they have planned. Then we can judge

 

[Darkside55]

What about the Demoman's dynimite move? Thats new.

It's the MIRV grenade, actually. G button. Except this time it would seem you actually EQUIP the thing, unless he holds it and swings it around WHILE you're holding G...like a prime animation. Which would be cool...but anyway, it's just the MIRV, not a new move.

Everything that's been changed has been changed because Valve feels it'll be better. Why would they put out something sub-par? Have they ever done that? Playing it safe would have been continuing with the old TF2, and ultimately phailing.

I've stated before, it's not because it's better. It's because it's already been done. Valve liked the other TF2, but since its features were taken by other games during the eight years it was in development, they decided to do a TF and TFC-esque style game. That whole schpiel in the recent interview about "getting back to the heart of TF" is a load of crap. They did what they did to be different and not seem like copycats, because Valve's always got to be "out there" with what they do.

You know what's a "phail?" Cloaking spies with balisongs instead of spies that flatten against a wall, sneak up on you, garrote you, and steal your clothes. TELL ME you'd rather have it the way it is now. You'd be a liar; anyone who says otherwise is a liar and you know it. A liar and a predator wannabe.

But Pi's right, I'll have to admit. Arguing semantics won't get us anywhere. TF2's what it is now, that's the end of it. Even I've accepted it, and I'm looking forward to playing it as much as anyone else. It's TF2 because that's what Valve chooses to call it.

 

[Absinthe]

You know what's a "phail?" Cloaking spies with balisongs instead of spies that flatten against a wall, sneak up on you, garrote you, and steal your clothes. TELL ME you'd rather have it the way it is now.

I would. For TF? Most certainly,

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

I have to admit, cloaked spies is going to be so annoying. They should have left them how it is. Though the balisong looks cool. :thumbs:

 

[eraser]

You know what's a "phail?" Cloaking spies with balisongs instead of spies that flatten against a wall, sneak up on you, garrote you, and steal your clothes. TELL ME you'd rather have it the way it is now. You'd be a liar; anyone who says otherwise is a liar and you know it. A liar and a predator wannabe.

Damn it, ok, you've got me on that one. I haven't watched those videos in forever...

 

[Leonard]

You're joking, right? Man, these forums seem to be really picking up in the department of ignorant comments.

And what in the shit does morality and aging have to do with anything?

WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON HERE?

Just explaining my reasoning for those who seem to take it personally when I voice my opinion.

Valve has played it safe with DOD:S and CS:S and I don't want this to be the same old stuff in a new wrapper. That's what EA does, not Valve. God I hate EA.

 

[Absinthe]

Uh, what the hell? Those are not sequels. They are, by definition, conversions to the Source engine. That's it. Valve has never sold them as anything else. That's why they're called DOD:S and CS:S instead of DOD2 and CS2

When they start developing full-fledged sequels that are identical to the games preceding them, then you can start accusing them of playing it safe.

 

[NightBlade2011]

I just don't think Team Fortess is the sort of game that NEEDS completely revamped features to be considered a sequel. It's not like a game that tells a story. It's a game based on a certain playstyle, with certain mechanics that made the people fall in love with the game in the first place! They change that, and it's not TF anymore!

Just like the new Unreal Tournament games. New graphics, sounds, some changes, but it's the same game.

And I repeat, there is no freakin' rulebook, who cares.

Amen Brother

 

[NightBlade2011]

Valve has always made great games and we should just let them make it and it will probably be good. Im sure there will be a way to detect the spies.

 

[subtlesnake]

I've stated before, it's not because it's better. It's because it's already been done. Valve liked the other TF2, but since its features were taken by other games during the eight years it was in development, they decided to do a TF and TFC-esque style game. That whole schpiel in the recent interview about "getting back to the heart of TF" is a load of crap. They did what they did to be different and not seem like copycats, because Valve's always got to be "out there" with what they do.

In the last incarnation it was a sci-fi FPS with many RTS elements:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=323745

If it had shipped it would have completely unique. Not even Quake Wars will offer buildable bases.

 

[alehm]

I would consider this a "sequal" from the impression I am getting. But until we know more of the game that remains to be seen.

From what I can tell the difference between TF and TF2 is going to be more than, say the difference between CS and CS:S.

 

[CreedoG]

I'm fine with them calling it TF2, it's their game. Anyway, like everyone said, I'm holding out, and reserving final verdict after we hear more info.

But with it being bundled with HL2:EP2 as almost a freebie, I'm a little worried to say the least. I was hoping at this point, TF2 would be more like a base building, tons of deployables, resource management, RTS commander, vehicles, object based variant gameplay, and a stand alone game.

Not TFC with better graphics. I'm not saying it IS tfc with better graphics (since we don't know), but if it is, then my TF2 dream can finally die, which is a plus at least.

At least I have quake wars coming out.

 

[Jintor]

Not as a freebie. You're not paying the Price of Episode 1 for Episode 2, Portal, and TF2. Presumably you're paying the price of a full game for 3 games... I hope and think. ><

But what it sounds like you want is not TF2. What it sounds like you want is an RTS in FPS form. Like... maybe, C&C:Renegade Multiplayer...ish. (Man, that looked promising).

 

[riles]

They'ren't going to release it with only the two videos released now. So you they aren't 'misleading' you by calling it TF2. You can decide by yourself when later content is released. But whether you like it or not it is a sequel. "something following something else: something that happens after something else, especially as a consequence of it" Like it has been said before, there are no real 'rules' for sequels. By that definition, yes, CS:S and DOD:S would both be sequels. Just because there isn't a number after the name doesnt mean it isn't a sequel. The gameplay in CS:S (if you talk to people that played CS1.6 religiously) has many differences from CS1.6. That's why there is a CSPro mod in production. I dont play DOD but I imagine it's a similar situation. I think Unreal, as mentioned before, is a great example of how you don't need much to have a sequel.

 

[KitoAce]

i would rather play FF's mod then TF2

 

[bigburpco]

Um, okay, glad to hear your opinion.