The America Issue

[Feath]

Originally posted by El_Chi
Oh God - I don't have any links to the plethora of Bushisms at my fingertips right now (I'm sure someone will), but the man is a moron and not suited for the intellectual rigours of world diplomacy.
"The problem with the French is that they have no word for entrepeneur"
"Most of our imports come from abroad."
Shortly after "winning" the "election" an interviewer asked him if he'd spoken to Yasser Arafat yet. To which he simply responded: "Who?"
Mmm-hmmm. Not a clever man.

Bush is not the best Public speaker, it has to be said. But that doesn't mean that he's a moron. He says some stupid things but being the President of the USA is not about talking.

I'm guessing you like Michael Moore? Someone should tell him (a WRITER) that "Fictition" is not a word.

God, I sound like the biggest pro-Bush supporter in the world. I just think the poor guy has a lot of things said against him. Most of the reasons people don't like him stem from "He's from Texas". Imagine if a Georgie became Prime Minister and everyone called him stupid.

 

[crabcakes66]

im american....and i support the war in iraq.....even if i dont support all the reasons for it and the way we wnet about it.

I do think the current adminstration needs to go.....they have no regard for what our allies or any other country think.....thats a big problem with politicians in this country.


we are so damn powerful we dont give a shit who we tell to **** off.

I hope whoever gets into office(republican or democrat) rights some of the wrongs of the current preisdent when it comes to international relations.

he wont be relected ..and i hope americans vote in record numbers next year...so we make sure that happens without any chance of him worming his way into office agian.

 

[Korgoth]

ah good points there, another thing is, has anyone noticed that if you don't support the war, that automatically means you don't support the troops? I can tell you right now thats bs my best friends joe and scott are both over seas joe is army reserve in uzbekistan and scott is a marine and they won't tell us where he is at so im kinda scared for him... joe has already came back so he is ok but i do support the troops and if you ask any of them in private of camera they would definately tell you that they don't want to be there..

 

[crabcakes66]

Originally posted by Innervision961
ah good points there, another thing is, has anyone noticed that if you don't support the war, that automatically means you don't support the troops? I can tell you right now thats bs my best friends joe and scott are both over seas joe is army reserve in uzbekistan and scott is a marine and they won't tell us where he is at so im kinda scared for him... joe has already came back so he is ok but i do support the troops and if you ask any of them in private of camera they would definately tell you that they don't want to be there..

thats unfortunitley true. People automatically think your some kind of traitor when you dont support all the reasons we went to iraq.

I support U.S. and coliation soldiers 100%, and anyone else in any of the U.S. or allied military and civil services.

...but that doesnt mean i agree with all the propaganda and lies.

Its funny that people still say to that clinton was a worse president than bush.

That sounds like ignorance to me.

 

[dawdler]

Originally posted by Innervision961
ah good points there, another thing is, has anyone noticed that if you don't support the war, that automatically means you don't support the troops? I can tell you right now thats bs my best friends joe and scott are both over seas joe is army reserve in uzbekistan and scott is a marine and they won't tell us where he is at so im kinda scared for him... joe has already came back so he is ok but i do support the troops and if you ask any of them in private of camera they would definately tell you that they don't want to be there..

Thats the problem, isnt it? People KNOW they dont want to go to war, yet they are forced without any questions asked because the people that dont go to war wants to send them to war (from the safety of home of course). We havent learned crap by ANY of the 20th century wars. Only how to make war better and more effiecently. Its horrible really. Ask any of the 75 million dead in 20th century warfare how they think the world is today they would only stare in disbelief over what we are still doing.

Its quite funny actually. We consider ourself so intelligent and smart, yet we are more brutal and narrow minded than any part of the animal kingdom. We have had constant conflicts and wars for THOUSANDS of years. Considering that 3600 year maya theory, I fear for the aliens instead, they have probably learned something during their time, we sure havent

 

[Archangel]

the whole bush-election does smell fishy to me. Yes I read Micheal Moore, and I found it...interessting, to say the least. okay, maybe he was elected, maybe he wasn't, fact is, that was the most emberasing show of "democracy" I've seen in years. Every, without failure, every other democracy would have held new elections instead of counting old votes again and again, until they have a winner (who won by what? 50 Votes out of some 100 Million registrated voters? How is that man supposed to run a country?). if he winns 2004, I will call him president. Until then, hes just the man in the white house.

My favorite of the deathless bushquotes: "I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them!"

 

[h00dlum]

Originally posted by [Hunter]Ridic
well i dont think we have to worry about anything. The world is supposed to end in 2012 so i wouldnt worry about much.


if you dont believe me then let me tell you this.

The ancient people called the myans(sp) predicted the world would end in 2012. Sounds like a joke right? No.

The same ancient ppl were able to do somethign VERY troubling....

believe me or not, but the myans are like thousands of years ago, yet they were able to map out ALL of our planets in our solar system. Including the 10th planet, planet X.

Ask yourself how a thousand year old civilization was able to map out our solar system...the same system that we were just recently able to map out.

Every 3600 years the 10 planet comes close to Earth. They preclaimed that their "Gods" came every 3600 years, the next 3600 year is 2012.



That scares me.


Im locked and loaded though.

The myans was high on cocain 24\7

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Feath
Most of the reasons people don't like him stem from "He's from Texas". Imagine if a Georgie became Prime Minister and everyone called him stupid.

As Governor, he didn't let one single person off the death penalty, he simply signed them all off and I don't care WHAT you say about the death penalty, but it seems strange that he sent evry single one to their deaths no questions asked. Before voted into office/before the election campaign he had hardly left Texas, let alone the United States. That kind of parochial view of the world is CATASTROPHIC in someone so powerful. It helps to EXPERIENCE the world before you understand it.
And yes, I do like Michael Moore. And one other thing I'd like to point out is that the vehemence with which the with or against attitude is preached is shocking. You say something bad and you're bastard numero uno. I saw an ad on the internet for a deck of playing cards (a la the Iraqi admin hitlist even though that had too many cards:dozey: ) of certain "unpatriotic assholes"... I mean how petty is that? Not to mention the renaming of french fries and toast to Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast. Moves like that leave the rest of the world staring at you incredulously... You do realise that, right?
Although I don't support the war, I don't want our troops to die just as much as I don't want Iraqi civillians to die. It's such a f*ck-up...
The amount spent on weapons R&D is unjustifiable when compared to that spent on medicine, education and public services. It's a disgrace.
And as for people of other countries being pissed off if America simply pulled out? Not so sure if they all would...
And h00dlum's right - the Mayan's discovered many drugs too... I wouldn't take their thing as gospel. EVERYONE predicts the end of the world.

 

[Feath]

I'm not saying Bush is perfect, I'm saying a lot of people say he's stupid due to badly pronounced words and faked pictures. He's not as bad as people say.

Whereas, Michael Moore. I could write a book about why I don't like Michael Moore, but not at the moment. But, remember, people can dislike him for other reasons other than he's very left wing. It's not that he says bad things. I dislike him for many reasons, and so do other people.

 

[el Chi]

Please elaborate...

 

[Fenrir]

People sometimes call me anti-American. That is of course not a choice I can make. But here's the deal.

I am incredibly scared of America and Americans.

I know America has the largest number of nuclear weapons in the world.

I know that America is the only country that has actually used nuclear weapons on another country.

I know that Americans actually support the public ownership of guns!? I, coming from Iceland, absolutely cannot even imagine the slightest reason why anyone would want that! Guns kill people. That is a fact. Look at that fact. Fewer guns, fewer killings.

I know that the American media is nothing but a brainwashing machine. That is of course a matter of definition, but I won't go into that.

I know that the majority of Americans support going to war even without the world's approval. Bush speaks of "Iraq's ongoing defiance of the world", but in reality you are defying the world, not them. But some of you also believe that you are the world, that it is yours to use, and that is of course what this is all about.

I know that "president" Bush is a christian fundementalist who will stop at nothing to achieve his goals. Or the goals of his father, or whoever is really in charge, because I believe Bush junior is not intelligently capable of leadership.

I look at these facts and I see the strong possibility of a third World War in the near future. That war will be fought with nuclear weapons and that war will destroy the human race.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Fenrir
I know that the American media is nothing but a brainwashing machine. That is of course a matter of definition, but I won't go into that.

It has a very large fear-inducing streak to it - everything and everyone is out to get you, it would seem.

Bush speaks of "Iraq's ongoing defiance of the world", but in reality you are defying the world, not them.

I loved the irony that Bush's crusade (oh no, sh*t! We can't use that word!) was against rogue nations. Which is? A country that defies the UN... Ohnowaitaminute. Erm... Oh dear. And yes I know that that encompasses us Brits too, and that's not something I'm proud of.

Bush...will stop at nothing to achieve his goals. Or the goals of his father

Personally, I reckon Dubya has this raging Oedipus Complex and HAS to succeed where his daddy failed...
I don't know if things will lead to a WW3... Of course, I hope not and I'm not sure how other nations would allow that... Oh I don't know.

 

[theotherguy]

Originally posted by Feath
"He's from Texas".

I'm from texas, and Ill go the way of the dixie chicks, im ashamed of being from a state that so fully supports him, and his views...Im also ashamed of all of the texas steryotypes, and that everyone thinks our state is full of hicks.

It seems like im the only democrat in texas alot of the time, and I cant express any of my veiws in public, because Im quickly drowned out (take the dixie chicks, for example, when every stupid backwoods hick radio station refused to play their...errr...."music"*I say this regarding all country music*)

Oh, and just because Im from texas doesnt mean i support bush (or that I live on a ranch and wear cowboy boots, and listen to country music, and have a huge twang) Im sick of steryotypes, and having a steryotypical man as president does not help...

 

[Echelon]

nice..the first forum ever where i see americans speaking freely about what they don't like. no "woah stop bashing the us..we are 1337..u aren't"

for the 9/11 issue, there are many unanswered questions. i even saw some "proof" that there was no plane which hit the pentagon, but somethign else. i don't know whether it's true but it made me think of the whole thing. so many things which are odd and don't fit.

and bush..he was an alcoholic until he was 40..then he found the church. "god" or the church..his believe in god.. "healed" him and showed him the right way. some ppl told me he even thinks he became president only for handling the 9/11 issue..it was his "destiny". if that's true, he really is a christian fundamentalist. that's pretty scary since you can compare him in some way to all those (osama) who believe the dji-had is the right way, i think.

innervision: sure there's place but be warned..most of the media here already belongs to big companys. some even belong to american companys. it won't take long and the news might be as biased as the news on fox, bbc, cnn etc..

i did not agree with going into iraq. at least not for these reasons. the us could have given the inspectors more time. saddam was going to cooperate under the pressure of the us...for the wmd: you should be able to find the remainnants of the wmds. and it's way easier since the country is controlled by the us, to find them.if saddam had them, and he knew he was doomed when the us went in..y didn't he use them?

liberating iraq... every country should be given the chance to get rid of their opressor on it's own. "bringing them democracy" by "liberating" them won't work out. they won't accept the enw system unless they wan't it on their own.atm there are too many ppl in iraq who don't..

something to think about: democracy also means too accept the opinion of the majority of ppl (60-70% who don't live in the western world) who don't like democracy.

i personally like the us and it's ppl. they are ppl like i am. who want their freedom, a house, maybe a family abd a peaceful live AND who often believe the news they can see and hear. so i do. due to the lack of other news i have to believe what the news channels show me. ..ok i still can access the internet and search other news and opinions there but many ppl can't or don't even know that it could be worthy to do so. it's the same thing in germany e.g. the majority of ppl read a news paper called the "bild". the news there are some small talk about stars and films and etc..and some really low level news about politics without any background surrounded by naked women... that's what the opinion of many ppl there bases on..

that's my opinion no need to flame me, correct me if im wrong.hard-core pro-american nor hard-core anti american but i have respect for the us troops who have to fight a cruel war..they still have to, altough many don't even know the real reasons for it. i'm neither

 

[Nostradamus]

/me clears his throat

I believe, that the "war"(more like slaughter) in iraq, may have solved one problem, but at the cost of something far more precious and important: Human lifes... nothing justifies the killing of another human...not even if the person has killed thousands of other, that's how i think, and it always will be....what usa did/does, is to simply to shit at every concept of freedom and free speech, and do what ever they please....i cant take it....I'ts like they have right to do this..because they are so big and nice... and god save them and my ass...hell... and the worst part is..no one dares to stand up against them, but germany and france... terrorfuing.. soon they will have monopol, on the ****ing world......

(by "they" i mean the american gov.)

hope that made sense...

 

[symptom]

I choose not to form an opinion on all of this because I don't think civilians can possibly know enough to take a justifiable standpoint on the matter.

 

[Gunner]

Originally posted by symptom
I choose not to form an opinion on all of this because I don't think civilians can possibly know enough to take a justifiable standpoint on the matter.

Do you realize what you have just said?! civilians can't possibly know enough to take a justifiable standpoint on the matter? then why do we involve ourselves in politics? why do people vote in the first place?

Maybe you could explain a bit more why.

As for me, I'm pro-Bush all the way. I just wish that the current administration will stay in power after the next presidential elections: they haven't finished their business (war on terror), there are still a few spots on the world map that need to be cleansed of terrorism and fundamentalism: I'm talking about Iran and the surrounding countries around Israel.

Someone stated that we are influenced by our surroundings which is true. But in my case it happens to be the contrary: I have been living in Paris for the past 4 years and before that in Cairo (12 years). And in both countries I noticed growing anti-americanism. In some cases it was worse in France than in Cairo: especially during the september 11th attacks.

Echelon you mentioned something about the attack on the Pentagon, well a french novelist wrote a book "proving" that the attack never took place. It was a best seller in France. In Egypt, most people thought that either the CIA or/and the "zionist entity" were behind the attacks.

As for the war on Iraq, well, you know where the french stand. But let me tell you something: whenever they protested shouting that the US was after OIL in Iraq, or that they were going to murder civilians or whatever nonsense they could come up with... I remind them that Iraqi civilians were killed everyday for more than 20 years during Saddam's regime yet no one protested. No one protested when France sold weapons to Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war, same weapons he later used against his own people. No one protested.

I'm sorry I got carried away.

 

[Korgoth]

I just wish that the current administration will stay in power after the next presidential elections: they haven't finished their business (war on terror), there are still a few spots on the world map that need to be cleansed of terrorism and fundamentalism: I'm talking about Iran and the surrounding countries around Israel.

Not to bash your opinions in any way (because we want this to stay a flame free debate) but i would like to interject there and say that, that is exactly the reason bush scares me... simply because "he needs to finish his buisness so re elect him" well if thats how he sees it there will always be buisness (more terror more wars and more death just so he can stay in office) But remember thats just my opinion so don't take offence i think both sides of the fence need to be heard for this to be a real debate ....
Also some one mentioned bush being a drunk... well he also used to be a crackhead, to which he has been arrested for, and the problem with recovering alcholics is that they never really recover. Have you ever heard of a "dry drunk"? Medically proven that alcholics of such a long period of time, even after they have quit drinking alchol, there chemicals in there brain will make them act and think like a drunk person even on a normal occasion so thats kinda weird too...
And I am also glad to see fellow americans who are speaking freely without worrying about being shot down
I think there is a strong jewish presence in the white house for one reason or another it seems to me that bush is sharons lacky (sp?)
And one point i totally agree with you on )[eVo]( Para is the fact that saddam was and is? an evil man and deserves whatever fate hands him but i don't think america should always have to solve everyones problems hell we have enough of our own

1. failing economy
2.homeless starving people here need food too
3. we don't have free medical so what do the poverty stricken ppl do?
4. terrorism
5. highest unemployment rate i think we've ever had
(6. antique power grids causing to revert to candle light a books blah)
And no im not a democrat im more undecided, republicans are supposed to be for less government interference but bush has inacted since in office the total information awareness (which awards fbi to enter your home unannounced and without any court warrant) (the fact that you can be classified a terrorist even for protesting in some areas and you can be detained without a court hearing or any jury trial or reason as to why) and the homeland security which is pretty much useless (and if im not mistaken and no offence to anyone but didn't nazi's use that term to rouse' patriotism? Well thats my rant, comment?

(disclaimer: i never claim to be 100% correct so please if something i've said is innaccurate by all means point it out)

 

[Gunner]

Originally posted by Innervision961
the fact that saddam was and is? an evil man and deserves whatever fate hands him but i don't think america should always have to solve everyones problems hell we have enough of our own

I absolutely agree, the USA can not help every nation in the world: stretching the military in every region around the globe puts strains on the economy and rebuilding countries takes time and funds. That's one of the many reasons why the UN was created: to assist other nations in their difficulties, yet the US does a better job than the UN.

I want President Bush to be re-elected for that promise he made to take care of the axis of evil: and among those countries cited was Iran. That's all :-(

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by Echelon
for the 9/11 issue, there are many unanswered questions. i even saw some "proof" that there was no plane which hit the pentagon, but somethign else. i don't know whether it's true but it made me think of the whole thing. so many things which are odd and don't fit.

I've just woken up so I'll be an unreasonable opinioned prat later (No, El_Chi, I haven't forgetten about you). I'm not awake enough to read all of the replies but I can respond to this one.

Snopes.com is the best website ever. It debunks a lot of myths, with plently of sources. Anyway, here's the link to the rumour that the Pentagon wasn't hit by a Plane. It debunks it, of course.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

I sound so right wing on this message board, who'd have guessed I was actually more of a centralist (Slightly left wing).

I also used to be quite Anti American but I've gotten over that, so I've decided to argue against Anti Americanism.

 

[Ridic]

Originally posted by nw909
Yeah, explain that fartface.

hmm. Sure maybe i dont know what im talking about, but that ancient civilization DID map out all our planets....explain that....fartface.

They had no telescopes, and the only planet you can see from earth is uranus.

if they mapped out planets that they couldnt see, and said that thier gods told them, im going to believe it.














btw i dont know what SUN magazine is.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Echelon
if saddam had them, and he knew he was doomed when the us went in..y didn't he use them?

Precisely because that would have justified the war. I'm not saying he still had them, but if he did, the sensible option would have been to sell them. Which is precisely what Bush was worried about - rogue nations supporting terrorism, no?
(Let's not forget who sold him the WMDs in the first place or which organisation trained a certain terrorist organisation with billions of tax payers' money)

I've just woken up so I'll be an unreasonable opinioned prat later (No, El_Chi, I haven't forgetten about you).

What's that supposed to mean!?Oh wait the Michael Moore comment. Coolio.

bringing them democracy" by "liberating" them won't work out. they won't accept the enw system unless they wan't it on their own.atm there are too many ppl in iraq who don't..

They haven't had it in about 30 years, they're not used to it and charging in and handing it to them thinking its good because it's the Western thing to do is just a bit... Hmmm. I'm not saying they SHOULD have a dictatorship, not at all, but they're not used to anything else and democracy will take a long time to take root, if it ever gets a chance to. Like I said before, I think they'll be in another dictatorship (or on the way there) within the next 2 decades. I hope I'm proven wrong.
And )[eVo]( Para - not to want to sound like I'm condoning suicide bombings etc. but there is a reason behind the strength of the anti-Israel sentiments of the Middle East and America's constant support for (and double standards concerning - they have the nuclear bomb absolutely and 100% contravening international law) Israel that helps make them a target for anger from an area thousands of miles away.
Hunter - the only planet you can see from Earth with the naked eye is Venus

 

[Archangel]

about the french anti-americanism: Part of it is americas fault. You see, the french are very proud of their resitance during the german occupiance, yet the americans always say things like "Without us, you'd be speaking german by now." thats quite true, but it makes it look like the french were sitting on their ases and waiting for the US to liberate them (what they didn't really want to), wich is absolutely untrue. So, when you speak about the french fighting spirit in WWII, never forget that D-Day would have been much bloodier without the help of the french.

PS: im with the german gouvermant, I guess that makes me way leftwing by american standarts...

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

OK i have one more thing to say....

In World War II the allies worked together. None of them could have done it alone....not even the Americans OK?

You can say...Oh the Americans won it for us...or without the French it would have taken 10 years...or without Britain there wouldnt...uh....something. Seriously though, without Britain there wouldn't have been a way to attack other than the east and across the Sahara desert. Without the Russians we might never have done it....they did a lot..Anyway, my point, the reason the war was won was because of team work:cheers:

 

[Gunner]

Originally posted by Archangel
about the french anti-americanism: Part of it is americas fault. You see, the french are very proud of their resitance during the german occupiance, yet the americans always say things like "Without us, you'd be speaking german by now." thats quite true, but it makes it look like the french were sitting on their ases and waiting for the US to liberate them (what they didn't really want to), wich is absolutely untrue. So, when you speak about the french fighting spirit in WWII, never forget that D-Day would have been much bloodier without the help of the french.

PS: im with the german gouvermant, I guess that makes me way leftwing by american standarts...

You are quite right Archangel, but I'd like to add something else: General Petain's government during Nazi occupation of France led to the deportation of thousands maybe hundred thousands jews to concentration camps as well as death camps. There was a minority fighting for the resistance and I believe it's not enough to redeem the country itself of its' collaboration with the Nazis.

El_Chi, I fully understand what you mean: I really do. When I lived in Cairo, I heard the craziest rumors about Israel. The "zionists" were to blame for everything that was going wrong in their lives - the economy, AIDS, etc... I was usually picked on by street thugs because I have a very large nose (not that large lol but still), they simply assumed I was Jewish and worst: from Israel. They would yell "shalom" and come after me just to pick a fight, but they're usually very easy to manipulate: I'd just pretend I were muslim by reciting bits of the Quran and they'd go away. But there was this one time, I was at Dahab a beach resort for pot-smoking tourists on the Red Sea which happens to be 50 kilometers away from Israel: this shop keeper mumbled something about how Israelis are all homosexuals when I passed in front of him. It just drove me mad, I asked him why do you suppose I'm from "there" (that's how they refer to Israel) and he replied very casually "because you have a..." and he gestured with his hands a big pinochio style nose. I told him his mother was from Israel and it all went downhill from there. LOL I had a blast that day

My point being most arabs, are racist. And in turn, they turned me into one: but I'm not anti-semitic. On the contrary. And I know what anti-semitic is... semitic does not include all arab nations, only the palestinians. Palestinians and the Israelis. But don't take this too seriously I just wanted to share my stories with you guys

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Farrowlesparrow
Without the Russians we might never have done it....they did a lot.

The Russians lost about 20million including civillians. Poor fellas.
Archangel - a very good point about the "You would've been speaking German now if..." Now THERE'S a way to piss off your allies.
)[eVo]( Para - the majority of France didn't collaborate with the Nazis - mainly it was people in the South. I think the rest were simply trying to resist or keeping their heads down and stay out of trouble.
Yay teamwork.
But that's really interesting what you said about Cairo... I'm glad that there's the beginnings of a Palestinian state coming into being and hopefully it could get to the stage where there was some kind of reconcilliation program (like there was in S. Africa after Aparthied) - it doesn't solve all the problems but it gets the ball rolling and lets people know that they're going to have to change. However as long as Sharon's in power I doubt that sincerely.

 

[Fenrir]

Oh, the ridiculous "Axis of Evil". How can any man proclaim that a country is "evil"!? That sounds like something out of a Disney movie! Come to your senses, there is no good or evil. That is simply a matter of public opinion at that time, the influenced perceptions of the current mob. The world is not black and white. There live billions in a country, and they are not "evil" because they're different from you.

And the Israel debate. I believe the founding of Israel was ridiculous, and the fact that they won't allow for the founding of the Palestine state after taking their land is beyond belief.

About the suicide bombings. I don't think they'e terrorism, strictly speaking. These people believe they are protecting their country, that they are their country's army, for there is no other army that will fight the Israelis as they enter Palestine, destroy houses and kill stone-throwing children. I do not think that the suicide bombs are more terrible than that, and I don't believe they should rather be called "terrorism".

However, 9/11 was of course "terrorism". That was not done in an attempt to protect anything, it was simply brutality. So don't get me wrong.

Then is another issue which I find strange. Cuba. You issued an embargo so long ago, that the general public has forgotten it. You should have gotten rid of the McCarthyism a long time ago, and there is no reason to starve a country because they are at the opposite end of the political wing.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Fenrir
Come to your senses, there is no good or evil.

Killing I think you'll find is a pretty universal evil.

I believe the founding of Israel was ridiculous, and the fact that they won't allow for the founding of the Palestine state after taking their land is beyond belief.
About the suicide bombings. I don't think they'e terrorism, strictly speaking. These people believe they are protecting their country, that they are their country's army, for there is no other army that will fight the Israelis as they enter Palestine, destroy houses and kill stone-throwing children. I do not think that the suicide bombs are more terrible than that, and I don't believe they should rather be called "terrorism".

I disagree. The suicide bombings ARE terrorism, there just happens to have a territorial motive - like the Chechen rebels in Russia. However, I agree that the Israeli army almost ALWAYS retaliates with un-necessary brutality. Also, you're right that Israel has no place in the West Bank or Gaza Strip - they invaded those areas ages ago and should return them. If they want peace and more understanding from the surrounding Arab world they're going to have to make concessions.

Then is another issue which I find strange. Cuba. You issued an embargo so long ago, that the general public has forgotten it. You should have gotten rid of the McCarthyism a long time ago, and there is no reason to starve a country because they are at the opposite end of the political wing.

This really pisses me off. Cuba on the "Axis of Evil". Like the US hasn't dumped on Cuba enough in the past half century. Embargos that should have been lifted ages ago; they offered to hold proper, free, democratic elections decades ago in return for the lifting of those embargos and the US refused. I honestly don't know what your gripe is with them - Fidel has actually done good for Cuba and certainly more than that CIA lapdog Batista ever did. They aren't a dangerous nation but they're there because he's a Socialist. That is all.
Scuse me. Rant over.

 

[Archangel]

oh yeah, the axis of evil. I laughed a lot when I heard that, as well as the term "evil-doers". I mean its okay to call the bad guys evil-doers in a childrensbook, but not in a political speech.

I can hardly judge on the israel issue (being german, disagreeing with israel would make me look like a nazi, agreeing with it would make me look like I changed my hostality from jews to arabs. oh well...), but one has to notice that the arabic states always fought israel with all their might (they attackesd israel one day after that state was founded...and israel still won. Impressive, if you ask me). i agree that they should let the palestinians have their own state, but places like the templehill should be open to everyone.

 

[Fenrir]

This really pisses me off. Cuba on the "Axis of Evil". Like the US hasn't dumped on Cuba enough in the past half century. Embargos that should have been lifted ages ago; they offered to hold proper, free, democratic elections decades ago in return for the lifting of those embargos and the US refused. I honestly don't know what your gripe is with them - Fidel has actually done good for Cuba and certainly more than that CIA lapdog Batista ever did. They aren't a dangerous nation but they're there because he's a Socialist. That is all. Scuse me. Rant over.

What? Nonono. You have misunderstood my post. I said that the embargo (and all embargos, really) is ridiculous and should be lifted because, and I quote myself, "there is no reason to starve a country because they are at the opposite end of the political wing."

 

[el Chi]

Ah I see... Slight misunderstanding but please see my use of your Cuba comments as a segue into my own opinionated rantings. sorry!

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

For some reason this seemed relevant....

ANGERED BY SNUBBING, LIBYA, CHINA SYRIA FORM AXIS OF JUST AS EVIL
Cuba, Sudan, Serbia Form Axis of Somewhat Evil; Other Nations Start Own Clubs

Beijing (SatireWire.com) - Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way viler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush
warned of his State of the Union address.

Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right. They are Just as Evil... in their dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. "Everybody knows we're the best evils... best at being evil... we're the best."

Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil.

"They told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

"An Axis can't have more than three countries," explained Iraqi President
Saddam Hussein. "This is not my rule, it's tradition. In World War II you
had Germany, Italy, and Japan in the evil Axis. So you can only have three. And a secret handshake. Ours is wicked cool."

THE AXIS PANDEMIC

International reaction to Bush's Axis of Evil declaration was swift, as
within minutes, France surrendered.

Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations rushed to gain triumvirate status in what became a game of geopolitical chairs. Cuba, Sudan, and Serbia said they had formed the Axis of Somewhat Evil, forcing Somalia to join with Uganda and Myanmar in the Axis of Occasionally Evil, while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established the Axis of Not So Much Evil Really As Just Generally Disagreeable.

With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling up,
Sierra Leone, El Salvador,and Rwanda applied to be called the Axis of
Countries That Aren't the Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked to Host the Olympics; Canada, Mexico, and Australia formed the Axis of Nations That Are Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Nasty Thoughts About America, while Spain, Scotland, and New Zealand established the Axis of Countries That Be Allowed to Ask Sheep to Wear Lipstick.

"That's not a threat, really, just something we like to do," said Scottish
Executive First Minister Jack McConnell.

While wondering if the other nations of the world weren't perhaps making fun of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axes, although he rejected the establishment of the Axis of Countries Whose Names End in "Guay,"accusing one of its members of filing a false application. Officials from Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chadguay denied the charges.

Israel, meanwhile, insisted it didn't want to join any Axis, but privately,
world leaders said that's only because no one asked them.

 

[Gunner]

Haha! Great stuff Farrow

 

[peoplesuc]

I guess it never happened...

No WoMD then no Holocaust huh?!? Yup it must have just been chicken bones in them ovens. After a big dinner they just tossed the scraps into the fire instead of giving them to the dogs because everyone knows that its not safe to give chicken bones to canines. They might choke on them. Poor doggys.

 

[Korgoth]

I love democracy but why does democracy fight with communism? If democracy were a reality then think about it, democrocy is supposed to be free then why do we try to spread democracy like communism and why is it our place to determine how other countries run themselves (speaking as an american) Lets face it, pushing democracy on people is just as bad as forcing communism or a dictatorship.... The whole reason america was born was because people were tired of their current governement so we freed' ourselves... And back to the French, I like the french actually (and the dumbest freakin' quote i have ever heard in my life has to be "freedom fries" that is so freakin stupid it makes me want to shoot myself for living here) Teamwork is most definately what won ww2, and lets face it, everyone will not always see eye to eye on the same issues, but another reason bush pisses me off is because he doesn't care about teamwork, he isn't good at leadership, and he has destroyed years and years of allied relations, and alienated our only friends in the world so no there is an extreme feeling of lonlyness here in america (at least for me anyway) Bush is way to gun ho' he is a madman when it comes to foreign policy and someone stated early that they didn't think that the palistenian suicide bombers weren't terrorsts, well if im not mistaken don't they strike buses full of innocent people all the time (thats terror, but i still don't agree with israel) I wish america would pull back all its troops except for the ones cleaning up and rebuilding and we should sign into law that american troops may never be used as an aggresive force ever again, only a defense force, cut down on military spending and divert that extra money to food and medical aid at home and abroad, and just keep to our damn selves

 

[dawdler]

Originally posted by Innervision961
I love democracy but why does democracy fight with communism? If democracy were a reality then think about it, democrocy is supposed to be free then why do we try to spread democracy like communism and why is it our place to determine how other countries run themselves (speaking as an american)

Why indeed? And why pull up the thread, I thought it was long gone?
Anyhow, democratists fight communists because of envy. Simple as that. Communism is democratic nirvana if performed all the way to the end. Communists fight democracy because it is a flawed version of this nirvana.
Sidenote: NO COUNTRY ON THIS EARTH HAS *EVER* ACHIEVED FULL DEMOCRACY OR FULL COMMUNISM.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by dawdler
Anyhow, democratists fight communists because of envy. Simple as that.

I disagree. Captialism has fought Communism because it is afraid of it and what it represents. It's afraid of this shake-up of society and the redistribution of wealth (which would, in theory, be fair) and most of all it is afraid of the anger that the working classes may harbor towards the fat-cats. Had Capitalism not intervened, Communism or Socialism might even have worked. Simple as that.




Sidenote: I thought this thread was dead and buried as well )

 

[Archangel]

well, if a society decides to try communism by itself, there is nothing to say against that, however if a way of living is forced on people, these people should be helped by any means necesarry.

 

[dawdler]

Originally posted by Archangel
well, if a society decides to try communism by itself, there is nothing to say against that, however if a way of living is forced on people, these people should be helped by any means necesarry.

Whats the difference of forcing democracy or communism on people?
And no, you cant reference to Russia or any other so called communistic nation. There hasnt been one yet.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Archangel
well, if a society decides to try communism by itself, there is nothing to say against that

No no no. Ok, let's for the minute say Socialism because that HAS been reached, to an extent. If it is democratically elected - and it has happened occasionally - then that's better than a violent uprising. However, sometimes that is exactly what's required to change things, sadly. There are times when other means won't necessarily work.
Dawdler has a decent point about forcing democracy - it's exactly what's happening now to Afghanistan and Iraq. These are countries completely and utterly unused to democracy and it's now being thrust upon them as if they've been praying for it and deciding who they'd elect, if the chance arose, for years. Democracy is a good thing, though.
And besides, the US has intervened - and continues to intervene - in nations that have democratically elected Socialist governments. Notably Chile and at the moment (I believe) Venezuela.