The Clarky Challenge

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Inspired by William Shatner's Two-Week Challenge, I have also decided to try clearing something out.

Hence, (drumroll):

The Clarky Challenge!

FACTQ: Frequently Asked "Clarky, The" Questions


What is a clarky?

"clarky003", AKA "the clarky" is more-or-less the official figurehead of the "9/11 Truth Movement" in this forum (and possibly others). If there is a 9/11 conspiracy theory, there is a good chance the clarky believes in it.
Example: In a recent thread, the clarky has made statements to the effect that Al Qaeda does not exist.
clarky003. Where possible said:
Come on[,] people[.] 19 hijackers with box cutters[,] who hate [A]merican freedoms and society, manage to totally subvert and pull off[*] such a difficult range of events [-] seemingly without any inter[r]uption[?] [T]hen you went to war on a tape that didn't even have bin [L]aden in it[?]

[*Editor's note: "subvert" and "pull off" mean opposite things. It is assumed the clarky meant "succeed and pull off".]
The clarky also does not believe he is acting in a way that is unscientific and/or illogical.
clarky003 said:
t's not a logical [fallacy] when there isn't actually any hard evidence ([such as] the [unreleased] video tapes) to 100% prove[*] what happened [at the Pentagon.]

[*Editor's note: demanding 100% proof is an example of the Perfect Solution fallacy.
Using absence of evidence (missing tapes) as a reason to believe the opposite is an example of Argument from Ignorance.
Basing your argument on an unstated assumption (in this case, the assumption that the tapes contain highly relevant infomation and that they have been deliberately withheld for that reason) is an example of the Enthymeme fallacy.
Basing the above on an unproven presumption (that all other evidence presented thus far is inconclusive) is an example of using the Existential fallacy.]
As such, despite generally poor grammar, I see the clarky as the most authoritative and vocal conspiracy theorist in this particular section of the information superhighway.


Stop making fun of the clarky!

Although that's not a question, it is important to note that the purpose of The Clarky Challenge is not to ridicule.
The purpose of The Clarky Challenge is threefold:

1) Reducing spam by fostering cohesiveness and coherence in the (normally scattered, repetitive and disparate) clarky-based claims, which tend to derail most every thread on the subject of the war on terrorism.
2) A comprehensive and direct refutation of said claims.
3) Eventual ridicule, in the event that any be warranted upon the completion of goals (1) and (2).


I am now intrigued. What is The Clarky Challenge?!

I'm glad that you asked!


Fundamental Aspects of The Clarky Challenge

On the basis that there is no such thing as "too much fact" in rational discourse, and emphasizing the importance of presentational composure in important matters, I am kindly asking the following of the clarky:


1) A comprehensive listing in this thread of his (the clarky's) conclusions, as well as (where at all possible) the evidence and inferences (etc.) from which said conclusions were drawn.

That is the only truly important request, but some (largely optional) factors are involved therein:

a) That care be taken, on the part of the clarky, to ensure the validity of his sources and deductions (this is optional, but appreciated by all).

b) That care be taken, on the part of the clarky, to detail the above in the conventional style of The Queen's English, Colonial English or some amalgamation of the above (this is optional, but appreciated by all).

c) That evidence, inferences, conclusions and/or other relevant information not be withheld for use in a later argument (this is somewhat implicit in the comprehensiveness of the request).

d) That evidence and inferences be presented uncluttered, to as much a degree as is possible through means of summary, specificity and use of quotes (this is optional, but appreciated by all).

e) That important terms presented be defined, where necessary (this is optional, but appreciated by all).


2) That we conduct ourselves by the following rules of conduct and propriety:

a) It is implicit that, although advices can be given by concerned third parties (preferably through Private Message in an effort to keep this thread uncluttered), the list of claims be compiled by the clarky alone. Please understand that, for the intended goals of comprehensiveness and conciseness to be acheived, the potentially infinite number of third-party postings cannot be analysed in detail and will be disregarded.

b) It is asked that name-calling and brouhaha be kept at the door.

c) That The Clarky Challenge be taken for the serious matter that it is and treated accordingly.


3: That the following resources be considered in advance, as they may prove useful to the clarky:

-911myths.com (most importantly, the papers of Dr Frank Greenings).
-The Logical Fallacy Thread (and further resources listed therein).
-Wikipedia (reccomended topics: Scientific Method, Pseudoscience, Logic, Empiricism, List of Logical Fallacies.)
-Others.

(Note that advance reading is optional, but appreciated.)


4: Do your best and prove the world wrong! Our freedom depends upon it! :)
 
Damm you really put some time in to this.
But I doubt the rest of the forum has your stamina.
 
Thank you, baxter, for those resources to be considered.
It is recommended that the clarky peruse the above links.

Damm you really put some time in to this.
I hope we can say the same of our friend the clarky! ;)

In the long run of things though, I believe that many tens of man-hours can be saved.
The clarky no longer has to continually post and re-post arguments in myriad threads across the spectrum of the forums.
Furthermore, other conspiracy theorists may find the proceedings to be enlightening.

Then, as a counterpoint, we the de-bunkers needn't frustrate ourselves with repeatedly refuting the same argument ad nauseum - only to have it spring up again in another thread.

Moderators may also appreciate the uncluttering of future threads which would otherwise end up clogged with controversial conspiracy arguments.
 
Spicy Tuna said:
that picture on the debunking site...looks terrible :(

Of course they are.

As such I would also like to offer up.

All the evidence from the Moussaoui trial with many declassified documents showing the link between Al Qaeda and 9/11 .

NIST Final report on the collapse of WTC 1 and 2.

The NIST report into WTC 7, the investigation of which is still on going

I simply offer up all this so the clarky's can cross reference them to their own, as yet put forward thesis regarding this event.

After all there is no point in putting any thesis forward unless it is based on known and proven fact.

Incidentally I agree with Mecha that all the clarky's should now direct their attention to this thread, rather than cluttering the entire forum with their claims, every time 9/11 is mentioned. I would go as far as to vote for this thread to become sticky so that any further clarky claims are directed here and kept away from the rest of the forum.
 
Not sure I like the idea of this thread... seems more of a vendetta born out of frustration than anything. Sure, clarky's full of shit, but he doesn't need to be mangled and humiliated in some kind of of debating contest to prove that to everyone. There are plenty of people knocking around here with just as much misinformation and arguably just as harmful agendas...

I mean sometimes it requires someone to make the bad arguments so that we can all see how bad they really are. Creating a kind of quarantine thread to lock the guy inside seems a bit harsh.

Anyway, that's my input on this thread, if not on 9/11.
 
the FACTQ said:
Stop making fun of the clarky!

Although that's not a question, it is important to note that the purpose of The Clarky Challenge is not to ridicule.

I agree that there are a great many others who spam, but never to the amount or to the derailment of so many threads.
Nor do these others put forward arguments as detailed and intelligent as the clarky's.
The clarky's willingness to write vast amounts on this subject in the past also make him the ideal candidate to write a lesser amount here today.

Those others who wish to participate in conspiracy-based argumentation can also use this thread to aid the clarky in his efforts (minding condition 2-a).


The Clarky Challenge is not a quarantine, but a compendium.

I had initially considered compiling the clarky's many posts into one cohehesive thread on my own, but was left unsure as to which were outdated and which the search function mightn't be able to locate.
The Clarky Challenge accomplishes the same meritous goal without sacrificing the integrity of the clarky's overall paradigm.

I ask, at mere minimum, for a list of these past (and potential future) claims in bullet-point format.


On the part of the clarky, there is always the chance that his arguments will sway those in the audience with the sheer power of his complete work.
We can all agree that it is time for our good the clarky to recieve the serious recognition he has fought for, and of which he is very deserving.
 
mecha...don't you really have nothing better to do than insult people?

listen...you and the conspiracist are both wrong!
my evidence: you have both extreme points of view, you blindli support the government and clarky blindly belives into conspiraces.

quit it...



ps: go **** yourselfe mecha. no pun intended!
if you want an answer just ask.
 
jverne said:
mecha...don't you really have nothing better to do than insult people?

listen...you and the conspiracist are both wrong!
my evidence: you have both extreme points of view, you blindli support the government and clarky blindly belives into conspiraces.

quit it...



ps: go **** yourselfe mecha. no pun intended!
if you want an answer just ask.


agreed,he probaly jacks off whilst insulting people
 
jverne said:
mecha...don't you really have nothing better to do than insult people?

listen...you and the conspiracist are both wrong!
my evidence: you have both extreme points of view, you blindli support the government and clarky blindly belives into conspiraces.

quit it...



ps: go **** yourselfe mecha. no pun intended!
if you want an answer just ask.

You can't be serious...

Mecha supports the government?
Mecha supports logic and science, clarky supports the funnies in the newspaper to get his evidence.
 
Glirk Dient said:
You can't be serious...

Mecha supports the government?
Mecha supports logic and science, clarky supports the funnies in the newspaper to get his evidence.


hah...logic and science!

it looks preety logic to me that this whole 9/11 thing was used to make millions of profit. it's not that scientific. but i do belive that there was a real terrorist atack that brought down the bulding, there were probably no implanted bombs...

listen...give me one evidence that shows that the bush administration wasn't somehow aware of this!

all of your evidence are just as crappy as the conspiratists.

and we are not talking about technical (engeneering) issues, because they most ceartenly are true. But we are talking about all the wierd coincidences and plots that happened in the goverment offices.

I know that where's lots of money and power theres lots of shit going on.

wanna know one single interesting FACT?

the oil corpration EXXON has more income per year than 3/4 of European countrys?!
do you really think that somebody who can buy 3/4 of Europe would give a shit about 3000 dead people that they don't even know?
do you even acknowlodge the monstrosity of the situation?

3/4 of Europe


ok...i'm getting a little of topic now, but it all serves a point!

the 9/11 attacks wasn't necessarily planned, but everything afterwards surley was, which gives me enough reason to not belive in the republican side!
 
jverne said:
listen...give me one evidence that shows that the bush administration wasn't somehow aware of this!
Lack of evidence of one thing is not evidence of the opposite. Show evidence that the American Government did know it was going it happen.
 
ríomhaire said:
Lack of evidence of one thing is not evidence of the opposite. Show evidence that the American Government did know it was going it happen.

that is why i don't stand on either side!

all i know is that moral sense is on the side of those who make less profit.
 
jverne said:
that is why i don't stand on either side!

all i know is that moral sense is on the side of those who make less profit.
That's prejudice, not logic.
 
Jverne, I spend my time lurking this forum and reading out of interest. I don't partake in any of it because, frankly, I've done it all before.

But wow. You really bring up the bile from my throat. You're inflammatory, dimwitted, childish, and downright retarded in nearly every single on of your posts. Each one is a colossal train wreck of human intellect and language. I would appreciate it if you would just shut up not necessarily for my sake, but for everybody's.

Thank you in advance.
 
Ludah said:
Jverne, I spend my time lurking this forum and reading out of interest. I don't partake in any of it because, frankly, I've done it all before.

But wow. You really bring up the bile from my throat. You're inflammatory, dimwitted, childish, and downright retarded in nearly every single on of your posts. Each one is a colossal train wreck of human intellect and language. I would appreciate it if you would just shut up not necessarily for my sake, but for everybody's.

Thank you in advance.
Lol, lurkerpwnt.
 
Ouchies ><

I know Clarky is a little nutty on a few issues, but does he really deserve a thread made just for the purpose on making fun of him?
 
jverne said:
hehe...so on whos side are you?
Al Queda! DURKA DURKA, MUHAMMAD JIHAD!
Seriously, I'm not on any frigin' side. I believe that the world trade centres and the pentagon were attacked by a middle eastern terrorist group. I do not think that the US Government knew of it (unless an 'inside-man' was helping them :p) and I believe that the invasions were partly if not compeletly to do with oil.
 
Ludah go **** yourself, so who are you to judge people?

of course... making fun of someone (clarky) is not childish...go smash yourself into a brick wall...will you.


hey Badger...so you don't mind that clarky is being indirectly insulted? so what if i'm troling. it's this thread that is troling the forums not me.
 
jverne said:
Ludah go **** yourself, so who are you to judge people?

of course... making fun of someone (clarky) is not childish...go smash yourself into a brick wall...will you.


hey Badger...so you don't mind that clarky is being indirectly insulted? so what if i'm troling. it's this thread that is troling the forums not me.
He's being asked to support his arguments with logic.
 
Solaris said:
He's being asked to support his arguments with logic.

in such a way that ridicules him..."the clarky"..."what is a clarky"...heh. logical isn't it? :rolleyes:

maybe i should ask mecha why does he deny all other opinions? maybe there should be a mecha challange? his evidence would be as bullshit as the conspiracist.

he belives in logic and science...is he a scientist to know that what is written in the report is true? logic also differs, what is logical for one prson doen't mean it's logical to another!

he's doing the same thing, that clarky is being accused for. spreading someones opinion around as it were universal truth.
 
jverne said:
Ludah go **** yourself, so who are you to judge people?

of course... making fun of someone (clarky) is not childish...go smash yourself into a brick wall...will you.


hey Badger...so you don't mind that clarky is being indirectly insulted? so what if i'm troling. it's this thread that is troling the forums not me.
I'm not entirely happy with this thread's existance no, but that's not what I'm saying.

I'm warning you for trolling.
 
ComradeBadger said:
I'm not entirely happy with this thread's existance no, but that's not what I'm saying.

I'm warning you for trolling.


ok...ok...have it your way, i'll stop defending innocent people.
 
It's actually quite funny.
The task of Clarky trying to argue here would be impossible, all the disproving and such he'd need to do to win would take days solid.
It needs to be done however imo.
 
Crikey, I go to sleep, wake up and look at all that's happened.

The purpose of this thread is not to ridicule.

If individuals would claim that self-imposed criteria has not been met, then exactly where are the insults?
Should my few japes with over-formal styles of writing offend you, then I apologise. Beyond grammar, this thread is in complete seriousness.

Likewise, I apologise should the focus on secular discourse offend any religious sensibilities.
I am afraid that a push away from religious beliefs is unavoidable, given the context.

At the inception of this Challenge, I asked the following:

2b) It is asked that name-calling and brouhaha be kept at the door.

2c) That The Clarky Challenge be taken for the serious matter that it is and treated accordingly.

So I am kindly asking the lot of you to please either be respectful or remove yourselves from the discussion entirely.

jverne said:
[M]aybe should ask [M]echa[godzilla] why [he] deny all other opinions?
[M]aybe there should be a [M]echa[godzilla] chall[e]nge?


Firstly, as to the "why" of your question, I have already written the Logical Fallacy Thread, which you may read at any time.
Secondly, The Clarky Challenge is The Mechagodzilla Challenge.
A key purpose of The Clarky Challenge, already listed, is as follows:

2) A comprehensive and direct refutation of [the clarky's] claims.

In other words, for every point Clark writes (and which you may help him write), I will match him point-for-point with my own clear and direct logical refutations.

If your arguments are strong then, by all means, ask Clarky to present them to me in this thread.
If I am stumped by any of them, you have my full consent to declare some sort of victory.

Getting angry doesn't help accomplish those goals.
 
Not sure I like the idea of this thread... seems more of a vendetta born out of frustration than anything.

Pretty much sums it up, no?.

I've stated pretty much everything that is within an alternate theory that people can consider as having substance given the signs of active complicity of members of the US government.

and lol at this thread, How am I the leader of the movement on here? I think perhaps your pants are on a little too tight. I've said a multiple of times it's merely an alternate theory that offers some credance considering the actions of officials at a critical time, and the lack of sufficient answers is what leads to scrutinisation of the official theory .. for instance mainly the lack of a determinate explaination for the collapse of WTC7, NIST themselves even admitting they are not sure of the collapse mechanisim and that fires are an unlikely cause, and have offered to pass the job on, proffessional's are basically stumped, destruction of evidence at the crime scene.. why? etc etc.

So please Mech get a life, it's been talked to death. If you want to debate any points go back through the threads and write your counter argument again on a postcard or something as a momento.

and by the way you win at the internet :thumbs:
 
clarky003 said:
I've stated pretty much everything that is within an alternate theory[,] that people can consider as having substance[,] given the signs of active complicity [from] members of the US government.
Excellent. Now I kindly ask that you list "the signs of active complicity" and outline the "alternate theory" derived from them.

If you have already stated them, I can't imagine it would be difficult to re-state them in brief summary.

How am I the leader of the movement on here?
Note that I refered to you as the figurehead, not the leader.
Also note this paragraph, already printed by myself:

"I agree that there are a great many others who spam, but never to the amount or to the derailment of so many threads.
Nor do these others put forward arguments as detailed and intelligent as the clarky's.
The clarky's willingness to write vast amounts on this subject in the past also make him the ideal candidate to write a lesser amount here today."

I've said a multiple of times it's merely an alternate theory that offers some credance considering the actions of officials at a critical time, and the lack of sufficient answers is what leads to scrutinisation of the official theory ..

The above quote contains the following conclusions:
-That a theory has been made.
-The theory offers some creedence [validity].
-"Official" conclusions are "insufficient".

I would like to better understand how these conclusions were drawn, as I can see no basis for them.
(Unless, for the first conclusion, you meant "theory" as a rarely-used synonym for "an assumption based on lack of knowledge."
Even then, baxter and myself have provided enough recommended reading to demonstrate that knowledge in not in short supply.)

Even if you continue to assert that they are not conclusions, they are still (at least) questions.
Questions are as subject to logical rules as the rest of an argument, lest they become Complex Questions.


These points have been made:
for instance mainly the lack of a determinate explaination for the collapse of WTC7, NIST themselves even admitting theyare not sure of the collapse mechanisim and that fires are an unlikely cause, and have offered to pass the job on, proffessional's are basically stumped, destruction of evidence at the crime scene.. why? etc etc.

Your inference is as follows (ignoring question of sources for the time being):

A-World Trade Center 7 collapsed following a nearby terrorist attack and the exact cause is still being investigated.
B-Pertinent evidence was somehow "destroyed".

Therefore, given A and B:
The possibility of the building being intentionally destroyed as part of a delicately choreographed multinational mass-murder conspiracy must be taken seriously.

Sadly, it is not sufficient to fill the gaps of human knowledge with guesswork. A theory requires the Burden of Proof to be supported.

I could conclude the building was destroyed by firey demon ghosts but I'd look insane.

But I'm clever: instead of a conclusion, I'll proclaim that the firey demon ghosts are an alternate theory. Invisible ghosts could have flown up from hell and destroyed the building from the inside!
But that's still a worthless assumption, because it opens all new gaps, even larger than before.
-What are the firey demon ghosts made of?
-Why would they be hostile to that building?
-Why did they choose to attack that building the same day as the adjacent terrorist attack occured?
-Are the terrorists actually firey ghost demons?
-Is hell actually located at the centre of the earth?
etc.

And each of those gaps can only be filled with further assumptions, which in turn raise more questions:
-If they're made of radiation, how can they push a building over?
-If they hate all world trade, why did they destroy only that building but not all the other world trade centers?
-Why did the firey demon ghosts bother to possess the terrorists when they could have just possessed the pilots?
-Why do firey ghost demons living in "the lava dimension" care about the Earth economy?

Obviously even as an "alternate theory", it is a total failure.

It fails to uphold the Burden of Proof that all theories require and is, as a result, a Complex Question.

The entire concept of the "alternate theory", as used here, is no different from saying "maybe ghosts did it".
It is an empty statement amounting to nothing.

As such, the conclusions you have made are false.
-A theory has not been made, because:
-The "theory" is not logically valid.
-The "official" theory (that there was no conspiracy or firey demon ghosts) is as sufficient as can be expected.


Description of a Complex Question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_many_questions

Description of why the Budren of Proof is important:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(logical_fallacy)


Now, here we are met with the problem. As with all your other posts, you have only written a single (long) sentence alluding to two unsourced claims. All your posts are more or less identical to the one above.As I have pointed out, all those posts are far too vague in this context. Basically, your argument is failing because what you write is not consistent.

Believe it or not, the major purpose of this thread is to help you make a solid argument. No more "maybe it was ghosts!" filling every thread on a topic.
If you could just write a single cohesive document, there might be no reason for people to mock the poor arguments because the arguments wouldn't be poor anymore.

Just look at this thread. Everyone is calling it "vengeance" and "insulting" when the one and only thing I am asking is that you tell us what you think.
You're always asking everyone to take you seriously, and complaining that the "officials" aren't taking your theory seriously and how this is all serious buisness and the officials are making serious mistakes and the media is ignoring serious details.


Yet the exact second someone sits you down and says "Okay, we're serious now. Say what you have to say, and we'll take it seriously." you clam up because they're being mean to you.

So what is more likely here?
That there is a conspiracy to silence you, or that you don't have what it takes to speak up?
 
The fact that Mech is still in highschool just shows you how much more awesome European schooling is to American. Also congrats that he can make a thread thats sole purpose is to hate on someone, and he can make it work.
 
Mecha is Canadian. And a sexy Canadian at that!
 
Thank you for your support.
Remember, support for clarky is also appreciated from those who agree with him - as, with support, he may be more open to listing his full methodology and conclusions.

Kangy said:
Mecha is Canadian. And a sexy Canadian at that!

Also, for accuracy's sake, I am a first-year college student as of last September and this is not a hatred thread.

I had originally anticipated, but had hoped aganst, the playing of the "my argument is not valid because I have immediately become too important to squander my expertise on this discussion" card.
An offer of a cash prize for a successful argument was considered, but dismissed on grounds that might be taken as an insult or patronization.
Perhaps, as it turns out, my lack of charity was too charitable.

As such, should Clarky accept the proposal of payment for service, he may contact myself via this thread, Private Message, or other means for the full terms and conditions.

If not, this thread and the eyes of many will remain open should Clarky, at any time, decide to provide further detail of his scientific conclusions in the future.
 
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