The end of human civilization

[jverne]

Inspired by dog's thread.

How many would like to see the destruction of human post industrial civilization?



DISCLAIMER (edited at...the hour that says bellow 9pm or something): SEEMS PEOPLE DON'T READ POSTS, BEFORE THROWING OUT PRECONCEIVED FALSE STATEMENTS, GOD DAMN ****ING READ!!!

 

[Eejit]

Eh, not if we can avoid it thanks.

Edit: private poll ftl, I want to see who the anarchists are

 

[Dynasty]

There's an old saying; If you want to know a man's true personality, give him power.

I say; If you want to know a man's true personality, let him know there's an asteroid about to destroy Earth and catalogue the proceedings.

 

[Sulkdodds]

What do you mean by 'destruction'?

 

[jverne]

What do you mean by 'destruction'?

If it will end it will probably end by force since i doubt we'll revert back to it willingly.

I'd say the return to late iron age societies. Where great civilizations didn't yet emerge.

Ok scratch that, in the event of a huge disaster, society as we know it would change.
Let's say climate change make a portion of the worlds best land more inhospitable. Wars break out for resources, nuclear weapons however are not used or maybe just in small numbers. If we're really unlucky apophis or some other meteorite strike us 30 years from now contributing to the problem.

After the war ends humanity would be pretty much rendered back to tribal communities and warlords.
Technology would be mostly reverted back to early industrial age one, advanced medicine would be extremely scarce limited only to a few scientists that would be in control by certain powerful groups anyway.


To be honest i'd much rather live in this world than a technological dystopia like brave new world, Blade runner, equilibrium,...

 

[No Limit]

Meh, Im pretty happy with the word I live in now. Plenty of weed, alcohol, and women. What more do we need?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Okay, no, that would be shit. I'd be all for whatever 'destruction' was necessary for the establishment of a civilisation that was both just and sustainable - a big "if", and you'd need a very strong case for the "necessity". But how would what you describe be any better? How would it be so much better that it's worth so many deaths? And how would you avoid civilisations ever rising again, even if you could establish that as a bad thing?

 

[flamingdts]

Faces of death bring out the truth in all of us.

 

[jverne]

Okay, no, that would be shit. I'd be all for whatever 'destruction' was necessary for the establishment of a civilisation that was both just and sustainable - a big "if", and you'd need a very strong case for the "necessity". But how would what you describe be any better? How would it be so much better that it's worth so many deaths? And how would you avoid civilisations ever rising again, even if you could establish that as a bad thing?

I never said it was better than now or a positive future outcome might be.
But i'd rather live in those circumstances than the technological big brother society.

As i see it, in a post apocalyptic you'd have more opportunities to pursue. In an already strictly defined society i'd feel constrained. But in the end it's probably the same since both have some advantages and disadvantages.

My ideal society is one that would be in touch with nature, where the pursue for progress is secondary.
If you think of it, alot of problems like diseases and such really come from being to cluttered together and not living like our bodies were primarily designed to (sitting in front of a computer 12 hours a day is not one of the designs).
But then again i don't even know if advanced technology, lack of progress and nature are compatible. Eh

Faces of death bring out the truth in all of us.

I understand what you mean but what are you referring to specifically?

 

[No Limit]

jverne you do realize that you live in a free country right? If you want to live with nature without all this fancy technology get your ass off the internet and go build yourself a shack in the woods. Big brother government will never find you there.

 

[Tyguy]

How many would like to see the destruction of human post industrial civilization?

I'd like to see the opposite to be honest...

 

[Wanted Bob]

My ideal society is one that would be in touch with nature, where the pursue for progress is secondary.

Inb4pandora.

Seriously though, wanting humanity to revert back to tribes, and undoing all the medical and technological process we have made would be pointless. Its only natural people would want to rebuild and get things back to the way they used to be, and even during that short time where people were forced to live off the land, we have messed up quite a few ecosystems to the point where I doubt it could be sustainable in many areas.

 

[jverne]

jverne you do realize that you live in a free country right? If you want to live with nature without all this fancy technology get your ass off the internet and go build yourself a shack in the woods.

I'm partially doing so. Well not the shack in the woods part, but living more off nature.
I don't have problems with the internet, heck technology is useful but the way we use it today is not like i have in mind.

Big brother government will never find you there.

You see that's where i don't agree. Modern technology allows better surveillance and thus you have less possibilities remain unnoticed.
On google earth you can find pretty much everything you just have to look enough.

This video is a chilling reminder to the power of technology

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcYcKXkVDVY

What does it help you live in the woods if someone who want's you dead and has that technology can hunt you down very easily.



I'm not actually suggesting we revert back to tribal times btw.

 

[Dan]

What are you waiting for? Get yourself a plane ticket to sub Saharan Africa and live your dream. The rest of us are happily enjoying the internet and mechanized agriculture.

 

[No Limit]

I'm partially doing so. Well not the shack in the woods part, but living more off nature.
I don't have problems with the internet, heck technology is useful but the way we use it today is not like i have in mind.

What? dude, you are talking to us on the internet. I would also guess you get your food from a store and your water from a tap. You do not live off nature, stop pretending.

And no, if you go deep enough in to the woods nobody will ever find you (assuming someone is looking for you, not sure why you would assume that). You could be Bin Laden Jr, we have the largest manhunt in the history for him and still haven't found his ass.

 

[StarBob]

Inb4pandora.

Seriously though, wanting humanity to revert back to tribes, and undoing all the medical and technological process we have made would be pointless. Its only natural people would want to rebuild and get things back to the way they used to be, and even during that short time where people were forced to live off the land, we have messed up quite a few ecosystems to the point where I doubt it could be sustainable in many areas.

You know, I've always had a nagging question based on something you've said here. People always want to progress to make things better, correct? It's human nature. Why did/do so many tribal nations stay the same way for hundreds of years? I mean many Native American tribes only had very limited advancement in their time until the entrance of the European settlers. This wasn't a time based issue being that they had been around quite a while despite branching from more nomadic people.

Even today there are tribes in various places that seem to ignore technological advancement in any way in remote parts of Africa and Asia for example. I mean it's one thing to grasp tradition but in a world where knowledge of the outside world is easy to obtain (and sometimes walks right up to your respective home) then I don't see how you could just blatantly ignore it.

It's interesting, to me at least.

Another interesting aspect of cultures and civilizations is the comparisons between European and Asian advancement. I mean with the Roman empire, Europe wa on the forefront of all of the world in terms of technology and cultural diversity. After it's fall the Chinese and others of that region were creating technology that superceded many things that Europeans would accomplish for decades or even centuries thereafter. An example would be gunpowder, which was ultimately traded to Europeans. It's interesting to me that, prior to more 'global' information and trade that came with sea travel, isolated civilizations managed to vary their advancement so radically.

 

[Unfocused]

It would no doubt be interesting, but I'd rather live peacefully.

 

[Eejit]

You know, I've always had a nagging question based on something you've said here. People always want to progress to make things better, correct? It's human nature. Why did/do so many tribal nations stay the same way for hundreds of years? I mean many Native American tribes only had very limited advancement in their time until the entrance of the European settlers. This wasn't a time based issue being that they had been around quite a while despite branching from more nomadic people.

Check out "Guns, Germs and Steel"

 

[No Limit]

You know, I've always had a nagging question based on something you've said here. People always want to progress to make things better, correct? It's human nature. Why did/do so many tribal nations stay the same way for hundreds of years? I mean many Native American tribes only had very limited advancement in their time until the entrance of the European settlers. This wasn't a time based issue being that they had been around quite a while despite branching from more nomadic people.

It goes back to humans having evolutional advantage when working as a team. Nomadic tribes have very small tight nit groups, they don't share ideas and other teachings from other groups. They live isolated. Whereas the Europeans, Romans, Asians, and any other civilization benefited from the exchange of ideas and discoveries that took place as a result of living in a large society.

 

[jverne]

What are you waiting for? Get yourself a plane ticket to sub Saharan Africa and live your dream. The rest of us are happily enjoying the internet and mechanized agriculture.

What? dude, you are talking to us on the internet. I would also guess you get your food from a store and your water from a tap. You do not live off nature, stop pretending.

And no, if you go deep enough in to the woods nobody will ever find you (assuming someone is looking for you, not sure why you would assume that). You could be Bin Laden Jr, we have the largest manhunt in the history for him and still haven't found his ass.

WOW, WOW when did i ever said i like extremes such as that?

No ****ing way would i want to live completely prehistorically!
A sustainable, in touch with nature society is what i want. You're sure quick to draw conclusions.



But just for argument's sakes, how many "woods" will there be if humanity would overpopulate everything. In my country you can't walk in any direction for more than 30 minutes and not spot a house or settlement, village,... Sure it's small country, but like i've said...just for argument's sakes.

 

[Wanted Bob]

Even if something like a meteor came and destroyed a lot of the world, people would likely cluster around areas that used to be heavily populated. At the very least, the remains of cities provide some sort of artificial shelter, something that nature on its own couldnt provide for large populations of humans sticking together.

 

[No Limit]

WOW, WOW when did i ever said i like extremes such as that?

No ****ing way would i want to live completely prehistorically!
A sustainable, in touch with nature society is what i want. You're sure quick to draw conclusions.

Yes, but for that water to come from the tap, or for you to be on the internet, or for you to get food from a store a shit load of land has to be destroyed, a lot of fossil fuels have to be burned, and frankly a lot of people need to be exploited. That's the only way you will get all these things. So if you want a new society that has internet, flowing water, and other luxuries you currently enjoy that society will look very similar to the one we got now.

 

[jverne]

Even if something like a meteor came and destroyed a lot of the world, people would likely cluster around areas that used to be heavily populated. At the very least, the remains of cities provide some sort of artificial shelter, something that nature on its own couldnt provide for large populations of humans sticking together.

Completely agree, i'm 100% certain that civilization would rise again.

 

[Dan]

Come to Canada. We have shit loads of empty land. You can walk for weeks and not see anything but pine trees and rocks. If it is the wintertime you will probably die of exposure by the 2nd day though. If it is summer time you will get eaten alive by blackflies and mosquitos. Seriously, I cannot overexagerate how bad the mosquitos are in swampy areas. When I worked on Vancouver Island I once slapped myself and killed 8 mosquitos, and I don't have very big hands or anything. The buzzing was so loud in my ears that I couldn't hear someone yelling 20 feet away. And in any seasons the bears will come take any food you have.

But seriously, you have 100x the freedom of someone living in the "utopias" you describe. Most of your limitations are in your head. You are physically capable of going out and doing almost anything. Modern society has given you so many opportunities and pathways to experiences that would otherwise by completely unobtainable. Unfortunately, it doesn't give you motivation to pursue these opportunities. Rather society encourages you to do the same thing that you did yesterday. It doesn't restrict you to it in any way, just encourages, and frankly, what you did yesterday was probably pretty comfortable.

 

[StarBob]

Come to Canada. We have shit loads of empty land. You can walk for weeks and not see anything but pine trees and rocks. If it is the wintertime you will probably die of exposure by the 2nd day though. If it is summer time you will get eaten alive by blackflies and mosquitos. Seriously, I cannot overexagerate how bad the mosquitos are in swampy areas. When I worked on Vancouver Island I once slapped myself and killed 8 mosquitos, and I don't have very big hands or anything. The buzzing was so loud in my ears that I couldn't hear someone yelling 20 feet away. And in any seasons the bears will come take any food you have.

But seriously, you have 100x the freedom of someone living in the "utopias" you describe. Most of your limitations are in your head. You are physically capable of going out and doing almost anything. Modern society has given you so many opportunities and pathways to experiences that would otherwise by completely unobtainable. Unfortunately, it doesn't give you motivation to pursue these opportunities. Rather society encourages you to do the same thing that you did yesterday. It doesn't restrict you to it in any way, just encourages, and frankly, what you did yesterday was probably pretty comfortable.

"Come to Canada, enjoy freedom and free health care. Die in the winter."

Sorry, it's cold enough here.

 

[YROC]

Doesn't matter to me if I see the end or not.

I just know if I hear something about an incoming meteor or anything that would doom us, i'd be on the internet as always, with a tab open for this forum, one for demonoid and one for various porn sources.

 

[flamingdts]

I understand what you mean but what are you referring to specifically?

True ugliness or heroism is only seen in the face of death. Who knows, that quiet guy around the corner could actually be a person willing to sacrifice his own life to save many.

Experiencing the end of humanity is witnessing the true faces of everyone. I'm 100% sure we'll be seeing a lot more ugliness than heroism, and it won't be a pretty picture if your close friends are all a bunch of pussies shoving you out the way to get into some last minute Earth evacuating spaceship.

 

[Eejit]

Experiencing the end of humanity is witnessing the true faces of everyone.

Maybe so. That's probably not a good reason to want the collapse of civilization though overall.

 

[Sulkdodds]

To what extent can a person's behaviour under special extreme circumstances be called their "true" behaviour?

 

[Wanted Bob]

Come to Canada. We have shit loads of empty land. You can walk for weeks and not see anything but pine trees and rocks. If it is the wintertime you will probably die of exposure by the 2nd day though. If it is summer time you will get eaten alive by blackflies and mosquitos. Seriously, I cannot overexagerate how bad the mosquitos are in swampy areas. When I worked on Vancouver Island I once slapped myself and killed 8 mosquitos, and I don't have very big hands or anything. The buzzing was so loud in my ears that I couldn't hear someone yelling 20 feet away. And in any seasons the bears will come take any food you have.

Man, brings back memories of spending 2 months in the Yukon/NWT wilderness. I wouldnt be so quick to say I lived off the land, as we had clothing made of synthetic material and things like flashlights and a satellite phone just in case. However, it was a real eye opener to what I had been missing by staying in the cities.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Sorry I like my civilization nature-less.

 

[kupocake]

My ideal society is one that would be in touch with nature, where the pursue for progress is secondary.

Go back to the valley of the wind, Ms Nausicaa.

 

[Seppo]

To what extent can a person's behaviour under special extreme circumstances be called their "true" behaviour?

I guess true in this sense means behaviour without pretense. I interpreted it as implying that people would be led by their instincts rather than established norms, or even laws. most people have chosen, willingly or not, to play a role to the point of being gimmicky, but at the face of life threatening danger the obnoxius charade would be dropped. Allthough I don't know why that would necessarily be a good thing. an ostensible nice guy might be better company than a genuine asshole.

but an ostensible asshole... oh god. I hate them.

 

[jverne]

Yes, but for that water to come from the tap, or for you to be on the internet, or for you to get food from a store a shit load of land has to be destroyed, a lot of fossil fuels have to be burned, and frankly a lot of people need to be exploited. That's the only way you will get all these things. So if you want a new society that has internet, flowing water, and other luxuries you currently enjoy that society will look very similar to the one we got now.

I don't agree with you completely.

I think we can live more modestly and still have a decent progress rate. Sure some sacrifices i'm willing to make. I can live with less luxury than i have and even now i don't have too much of it.
I won't go into details but i guess you know where we can conserve.
You don't have to drain all the water, have massive stores that probably never even sell all their stuff on their shelves, destroy farmland, burn that much fossil fuel and exploit that much people to have the internet.

Problem is that people are not willing to self regulate themselves, make any sacrifice however minor they could be or become more efficient in their day to day lives.

Come to Canada. We have shit loads of empty land. You can walk for weeks and not see anything but pine trees and rocks. If it is the wintertime you will probably die of exposure by the 2nd day though. If it is summer time you will get eaten alive by blackflies and mosquitos. Seriously, I cannot overexagerate how bad the mosquitos are in swampy areas. When I worked on Vancouver Island I once slapped myself and killed 8 mosquitos, and I don't have very big hands or anything. The buzzing was so loud in my ears that I couldn't hear someone yelling 20 feet away. And in any seasons the bears will come take any food you have.

Come on dan, you know that was not what i had in mind. And also here we have huge mosquito problems in the summer, especially now when the tiger mosquito pretty much exterminated the more tame native mosquitoes. Those ****ers don't leave you alone 24/7.

But seriously, you have 100x the freedom of someone living in the "utopias" you describe. Most of your limitations are in your head. You are physically capable of going out and doing almost anything. .

Sure in our society like today we have freedom, well it depends what you want to do of course. For instance in my country it's illegal to camp anywhere unless given permission by the owner (for private proprieties), as it is in national parks. There you can get huge fines if you even light a fire. Camping is only allowed at designated camp sites.
But i was talking of a more pessimistic future not now.

And i'm planning of visiting Canada someday.


Pleas stop implying i'd like to live in a forest without any technology, I DON'T WANT THAT!!! I made it clear. All i want is a more sustainable society which is in touch with nature. That means you don't take 10000l of arsenic solution and throw it into the first lake you come across!

 

[Dan]

Sure in our society like today we have freedom, well it depends what you want to do of course. For instance in my country it's illegal to camp anywhere unless given permission by the owner (for private proprieties), as it is in national parks. There you can get huge fines if you even light a fire. Camping is only allowed at designated camp sites.
But i was talking of a more pessimistic future not now.

In your ideal late iron age society it is also illegal to camp anywhere unless given permission by the owner. Except in that case, the owner is a small feudal lord who might chop your head off and take all your money if he wants. If not that, then Russel Crowe will put an arrow in the back of your head for walking in his forest.

You also are not allowed to drive cars, travel to other climates, learn foreign languages, Wikipedia any information, get an education, or see anything new because you are a ****ing dirt poor cabbage farmer who is owned by someone else and working their land. Your father was a cabbage farmer and his father was a cabbage farmer and your kids will be cabbage farmers, and your whole family is owned by the same asshole. If you try to run away, they will hunt you down and kill you because they have horses. You don't have time for anything else because If you don't farm enough cabbage to feed your self and pay your taxes, you will starve. If the weather is bad and your crops fail, you also starve. If some ignorant uppity travelling **** brings the plague into your podunk hamlet, you have a 50% chance of dying because nobody washes their hands and there isn't any soap to wash them with anyways. That is why you don't trust anybody from other towns and nobody travels anywhere.

I hope you like eating cabbage and living in shit.

 

[Tyguy]

"you can't change the world unless you change yourself"

i knew the movie "notorious" would come in handy

 

[Eejit]

jverne seems to be becoming dumber by the day

 

[Tyguy]

jverne seems to be becoming dumber by the day

i think it's more of a refusal to give up type of attitude, but in any case it's making his threads more interesting/annoying.

 

[jverne]

In your ideal late iron age society it is also illegal to camp anywhere unless given permission by the owner. Except in that case, the owner is a small feudal lord who might chop your head off and take all your money if he wants. If not that, then Russel Crowe will put an arrow in the back of your head for walking in his forest.

You also are not allowed to drive cars, travel to other climates, learn foreign languages, Wikipedia any information, get an education, or see anything new because you are a ****ing dirt poor cabbage farmer who is owned by someone else and working their land. Your father was a cabbage farmer and his father was a cabbage farmer and your kids will be cabbage farmers, and your whole family is owned by the same asshole. If you try to run away, they will hunt you down and kill you because they have horses. You don't have time for anything else because If you don't farm enough cabbage to feed your self and pay your taxes, you will starve. If the weather is bad and your crops fail, you also starve. If some ignorant uppity travelling **** brings the plague into your podunk hamlet, you have a 50% chance of dying because nobody washes their hands and there isn't any soap to wash them with anyways. That is why you don't trust anybody from other towns and nobody travels anywhere.

I hope you like eating cabbage and living in shit.

Seriously Dan, are you just playing dumb or are you really?
Ideal iron age society? Where did i say that?

jverne seems to be becoming dumber by the day

Yes if you're dumb and not really read what i write and just throw out preconceived ideas you think i made.

**** that pisses me off. Some of you guys here are like this:

Person A: Hey, i wonder how would living in space feel like?
You: WHAT, YOU WANT TO LIVE ON THE SURFACE OF THE SUN!!!!???? YOU STUPID IDIOT, DON'T YOU KNOW ITS EXTREMELY HOT THERE, AND IT'S VERY FAR!!!!!

 

[Dan]

If it will end it will probably end by force since i doubt we'll revert back to it willingly.

I'd say the return to late iron age societies. Where great civilizations didn't yet emerge.

Ok scratch that, in the event of a huge disaster, society as we know it would change.
Let's say climate change make a portion of the worlds best land more inhospitable. Wars break out for resources, nuclear weapons however are not used or maybe just in small numbers. If we're really unlucky apophis or some other meteorite strike us 30 years from now contributing to the problem.

After the war ends humanity would be pretty much rendered back to tribal communities and warlords.
Technology would be mostly reverted back to early industrial age one, advanced medicine would be extremely scarce limited only to a few scientists that would be in control by certain powerful groups anyway.


To be honest i'd much rather live in this world than a technological dystopia like brave new world, Blade runner, equilibrium,...

Why don't you describe your Utopia using discrete statements so we can just rip it up the one time instead of ripping up what you say and then you changing it to something else.