The new internal passport/national ID

[Tr0n]

You stole the question right outa my mouth .


Ah, I thought of another though! Do you carry around a library card?

And tr0n how old are you?

17...don't ask why I don't have a drivers license...long story.

This topic is not about me...So Bliink please make them get back topic.

 

[seinfeldrules]

17...don't ask why I don't have a drivers license...long story.

But you would carry one given the opportunity/chance?

 

[gh0st]

For you dumbasses here I will make it simple...





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID

The principle of what were saying still applies. The government, with very little effort at all, can find anything about you they want; all with one little warrant. They have already said that they will not be tracking anyone, or storing any information in a centralized database. They wont be tracking you from space, buddy. Anyone who says this is leading to something else is a conspiracy theorist, and theres no basis of proof in that whatsoever.

 

[Tr0n]

But you would carry one given the opportunity/chance?

Refer to both my post above yours.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Come on Tr0n if you want to give an opinion you should follow it through. If you want to take a stance then be prepared to defend it.

Furthermore, I find it amusing you have the gall to call for a mod after this one:

For you dumbasses here I will make it simple...

 

[bliink]

Tr0n's drivers license is a little OT, considering its pretty different in method and application from a national ID.

You guys shouldn't be so personal in your arguments with each other.

 

[RZAL]

You would have the church saying

""And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. ~ Revelation 13:16-18"

And then would have another group of people saying its "Big Brother"

National ID cards the way to go, not verichip.

 

[Tr0n]

Come on Tr0n if you want to give an opinion you should follow it through. If you want to take a stance then be prepared to defend it.

Furthermore, I find it amusing you have the gall to call for a mod after this one:

Well for one...I wasn't calling anyone a dumbass...it's like pointing out if anyone is dumb as a whole.So if I was to call you a dumbass then yes I would get a warning...but I wasn't directing it at anybody.

Also my life in not on topic...so no I don't have to follow through.I have opinion and as such I can talk about it with out having to give out my personal info.

I have a stance and that is...

This current goverment and kiss my white southern ass.

Good enough stance for ya?

No to RFID tags.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Tr0n's drivers license is a little OT, considering its pretty different in method and application from a national ID.

Then isnt it also personal to give his opinion? To state that he would never carry such a card?

Here is what he said:

Hell no!

I'd rather go to hell first before I'm made to carry some ID tag like a dog.

Wouldnt a common reaction to such a statement be to ask if he carried another form of ID? This reaches a much broader point as well. I'm sure many people would say the exact same thing, but carry drivers licences in their wallets every day. That point is at the very heart of this debate/topic. I dont see how it is OT at all.

 

[bliink]

Then isnt it also personal to give his opinion? To state that he would never carry such a card?

Why are you asking me questions?

People complain when others take things personally, but people still go and drag people personally into arguments.

Theres no discussion on it, if he doesnt want to give out personal information of that kind; you dont ask.

 

[Tr0n]

Then isnt it also personal to give his opinion? To state that he would never carry such a card?

Here is what he said:


Wouldnt a common reaction to such a statement be to ask if he carried another form of ID? This reaches a much broader point as well. I'm sure many people would say the exact same thing, but carry drivers licences in their wallets every day. That point is at the very heart of this debate/topic. I dont see how it is OT at all.

No the point of the topic itself is the RFID card.

So what if I did say that?I don't carry one or have one for that matter so there happy?Want me to give you my life story while I'm at it?

 

[Korgoth]

Well you guys are saying that by using drivers licenses and usings checks and credit cards they can already track everything we do? Then why should we spend 4 billion dollars of our tax money to streamline it for them? When we could definately use that money to buy more border agents, and scanning technologies to help safegaurd our borders from terrorists.... I think you guys argue for the sake of argument, lets just afree to disagree, make the cards optional then, and all those who don't have a problem can foot the bill and carry one themselves, and all those opposed can go on living the way they always have.

 

[seinfeldrules]

So what if I did say that?I don't carry one or have one for that matter so there happy?Want me to give you my life story while I'm at it?

I really dont care what your life story was. I did want to know if you would carry a drivers license if given the chance, apparently that is too personal so forget I asked.

It doesnt seem to be some sort of satellite tracking device either, following your every movement.

Stories about electronic chips, and biometrics, and centralized databases are swirling on the web. But Jason King, spokesman for the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (AAMVA), says they are a lot of red herrings. "There is no call for biometrics in this legislation; there is no call for smart chips; there is no call for a central database."

Well you guys are saying that by using drivers licenses and usings checks and credit cards they can already track everything we do?

By making it all one card. Its like when the US was operating with 1231324 different forms of currency, then decided to melt them all into the currency we now use today.

 

[gh0st]

Well you guys are saying that by using drivers licenses and usings checks and credit cards they can already track everything we do? Then why should we spend 4 billion dollars of our tax money to streamline it for them? When we could definately use that money to buy more border agents, and scanning technologies to help safegaurd our borders from terrorists.... I think you guys argue for the sake of argument, lets just afree to disagree, make the cards optional then, and all those who don't have a problem can foot the bill and carry one themselves, and all those opposed can go on living the way they always have.

If we make the card optional theres no point in having it. Maybe terrorists would just opt out the card, and it would be a moot point. We could use the tax dollars for a lot of things, but this is important to have. This helps our countries security. Why spend many more billions protecting the border when every american citizen has a card and all others can be accounted for accordingly.

How is this going to change your life. The government will have to mail you a card? You'll have to open the envelope? You'll have to stick it in your wallet? If you mean you will have to be constantly on the lookout for government agents on the rooftops spying at you, and MLB sattelites taking pictures of you picking your nose, then i suggest therapy.

 

[Korgoth]

do you honestly think terrorists are going to go out and get one of these cards legitimately? Of course not, you would have to be a bumbling idiot, everyone says our form of currency is the best, yet its still counterfieted, same will happen with these cards. The only people it will affect are the ones who are innocent.

 

[seinfeldrules]

do you honestly think terrorists are going to go out and get one of these cards legitimately? Of course not, you would have to be a bumbling idiot, everyone says our form of currency is the best, yet its still counterfieted, same will happen with these cards. The only people it will affect are the ones who are innocent.

Who says our form of currency is the best? Mostly anybody I have talked to/ or heard claims Europe has the best ones. It will be much harder to fake a card everyone has and recognizes than one that has 50 variations.

 

[gh0st]

do you honestly think terrorists are going to go out and get one of these cards legitimately? Of course not, you would have to be a bumbling idiot, everyone says our form of currency is the best, yet its still counterfieted, same will happen with these cards. The only people it will affect are the ones who are innocent.

I suggest you hold your tongue on that one until you see how the card is made. RFID may well make it VERY difficult indeed to duplicate. Moreover, its probably tied to a unique SSN. Youd have to be a bumbling idiot not to realize that

 

[Tr0n]

Ok guys listen....

1.You do not need a satellite to track someone with a RFID tag it can be done if say someone goes to a mall...when that person goes through the door a device picks up that persons tag and sends it to wherever the goverment or the owner of the mall has some database or somethin.

2.Just because they say there isn't a database doesn't mean they already have one setup or is gonna setup one in the future.Do not doubt our goverment when it comes to secrecy.Hell they built a huge ass bunker in the 60's under some hotel and no one ever knew it was there or what it even was.

 

[gh0st]

Ok guys listen....

1.You do not need a satellite to track someone with a RFID tag it can be done if say someone goes to a mall...when that person goes through the door a device picks up that persons tag and sends it to wherever the goverment or the owner of the mall has some database or somethin.

Except they have already said there wont be a database

2.Just because they say there isn't a database doesn't mean they already have one setup or is gonna setup one in the future.Do not doubt our goverment when it comes to secrecy.Hell they built a huge ass bunker in the 60's under some hotel and no one ever knew it was there or what it even was.

You dont know that there will be. Thats simply a conspiracy theory and nothing more. Its speculation that is most likely wrong, and more importantly you cannot offer ANY proof, evidence, motive, ANYTHING to add to your case.

 

[seinfeldrules]

2.Just because they say there isn't a database doesn't mean they already have one setup or is gonna setup one in the future.Do not doubt our goverment when it comes to secrecy.Hell they built a huge ass bunker in the 60's under some hotel and no one ever knew it was there or what it even was.

That bunker was to protect Congress from a nuclear blast from the Soviets. I dont think it would have been a good idea to publicize that knowledge, it would be against the whole point of having the bunker in the first place.

 

[bliink]

That bunker was to protect Congress from a nuclear blast from the Soviets. I dont think it would have been a good idea to publicize that knowledge, it would be against the whole point of having the bunker in the first place.

He was just showing that the government was capable of performing large scale operations in complete secrecy.

 

[Tr0n]

That bunker was to protect Congress from a nuclear blast from the Soviets. I dont think it would have been a good idea to publicize that knowledge, it would be against the whole point of having the bunker in the first place.

Well if I remember the story I think it was because of some magazine.

Someone leaked info I think to a certain magazine publisher and they went hog wild with it.

 

[gh0st]

Well if I remember the story I think it was because of some magazine.

Someone leaked info I think to a certain magazine publisher and they went hog wild with it.

Yeah it was shut down soon after. Its under the green brier hotel if I remember that history channel show on it right.

 

[Tr0n]

Except they have already said there wont be a database


You dont know that there will be. Thats simply a conspiracy theory and nothing more. Its speculation that is most likely wrong, and more importantly you cannot offer ANY proof, evidence, motive, ANYTHING to add to your case.

Again me and you would never know about it!

Conspiracy theory or not....hell it may not happen now, but could and can happen in the future.

 

[Tr0n]

Yeah it was shut down soon after. Its under the green brier hotel if I remember that history channel show on it right.

Yea...it's in Virgina I think.

Thats the first place I'm going if a nuclear war happens.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I still say no to this. It's too centralizing for my likes. It's too dangerous. Power was never meant to be this consolodated to the federal government.

 

[Tr0n]

I still say no to this. It's too centralizing for my likes. It's too dangerous. Power was never meant to be this consolodated to the federal government.

Well at least one republican agrees with me.

 

[RZAL]

2.Just because they say there isn't a database doesn't mean they already have one setup or is gonna setup one in the future.Do not doubt our goverment when it comes to secrecy.Hell they built a huge ass bunker in the 60's under some hotel and no one ever knew it was there or what it even was.

Except they have already said there wont be a database.

So you think there wont be a database for a National Identification Card/RFID? Then tell me what good would the card be without a database? The Card would just upgrade our drivers license database… no big deal…or is it.

You dont know that there will be. Thats simply a conspiracy theory and nothing more. Its speculation that is most likely wrong, and more importantly you cannot offer ANY proof, evidence, motive, ANYTHING to add to your case.

Conspiracy theory…. think again, the driver license database has already been abused by our government.

CNN May 21, 1999

In a move that could have long-term ramifications for individual privacy concerns and state autonomy over public records, the U.S. Supreme Court announced Monday that it will decide whether or not states have the right to sell or distribute personal information collected from driver's license applications.

The litigation fueling the issue is Reno v. Condon -- South Carolina's challenge to the 1994 Driver's Privacy Protection Act (DPPA). The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals last September struck down the law as unconstitutional, and the Supreme Court is poised to review that decision. In its decision, the Appeals Court ruled that Congress was stepping illegally into state territory and noted further that there exists no constitutional right to privacy in information contained in public records

DPPA was passed in the aftermath of the murder of actress Rebecca Schaeffer, slain by a stalker who found her residential address through the California Department of Motor Vehicles. The law bars states and their employees from selling or releasing personal information such as Social Security numbers, photographs, addresses, telephone numbers and birthdays.

Until the law was passed, at least 35 states had made motor vehicle records public in some form, and many had routinely sold personal information to direct marketing firms, businesses, charities, other organizations and even private individuals. New York, for example, earned $17 million in one year selling drivers' records, according to the U.S. Justice Department.

But the 1997 law contains several exceptions that allow personal information to be released to law enforcement officials, courts, government agencies, private investigators and even businesses such as insurance companies.

The one group that didn't receive an exception was the media. Free speech advocates complain that the Driver's Privacy Protection Act violates the First Amendment, and many, including the American Society of Newspaper Editors and the Newspaper Association of America, supported the South Carolina challenge.

South Carolina Attorney General Charlie Condon, when hearing that the Supreme Court agreement to hear the case, said he believed citizens have a right to keep their privacy protected -- which he says is guaranteed by a clause in the South Carolina Constitution. But the real question is who should be enforcing that protection Condon said. Condon and other state officials strongly believe that states should have full autonomy when it comes to administering public records. In the case before the Supreme Court, South Carolina will argue that the new federal law violates the 10th Amendment.

"The people of Carolina established drivers' records, maintained them, and have a right to determine their use," he said in a statement. "South Carolina should be run by South Carolinians. If the federal government can tell us what to do with these records, it can tell us we can't keep records at all. The 10th Amendment is the legal and spiritual guardian of state rights. Washington, D.C., is a long way from South Carolina, and the federal government needs to keep its distance."

The U.S. Justice Department, meanwhile, argues that the federal government has the right to regulate the records under the Constitution's commerce clause. Specifically, DOJ contends that new law regulates the disclosure of personal information by DMV offices in the same way that similar federal statutes regulate disclosures by video stores, cable television companies, credit bureaus and electronic communication services. Officials declined to comment on the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to hear the case.

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9905/21/license.priv.idg/
http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/qaprive.htm

 

[Korgoth]

think about this for a second, whats the point in even having these cards to track/stop terrorists if there is no database? Honestly whats the point in spending billions on a device to track people, then not tracking them... Thats pointless.

 

[Bodacious]

I am pretty sure this issue is tacked on legislation that is in response to the 9/11 comission report. If I recall correctly this issue passed a prelimnary senatvote 98-0 with kerry and edwards not voting.

This issue has already pased the senate and is in the house. Better write your congressman.

 

[clarky003]

the decision for this new ID card was based on the 9/11 comission report?, me laughs

their thinking of it in England aswell, global ID cards may become a reality.

 

[WySiWyG]

I currently carry bank cards x3, swim pass card, game reward card, drivers licence, phone top up card and my clocking on/off work card.

What would be handy would be one that is all of them, that you can add to. Not another fuc king bit of plastic to add to my ever increasing collection.

 

[Sainku]

I doubt this will ever pass, and if it does I dont really care. I dont plan on going anywhere I shouldnt be and I dont care if somone watches me while I sit at a computer. Unless this leads to some sort of thought police or something of that nature ( which it wont ) I just really dont see the big deal.

 

[Bodacious]

the decision for this new ID card was based on the 9/11 comission report?, me laughs

their thinking of it in England aswell, global ID cards may become a reality.

Yes, resarch the issue before you run your mouth.

This is the bill that has the national ID card legislation inside it.
National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004

I am sorry , there were 2 nays as well.


This is the portion of the bill that has the ID card in it:

To add title VII of S. 2774, related to transportation security.

McCain is the senator who created this part of the bill. It passed 97 - 0. Senators Kerry, Edwards, and Akaka not voting.

 

[RZAL]

I doubt this will ever pass, and if it does I dont really care. I dont plan on going anywhere I shouldnt be and I dont care if somone watches me while I sit at a computer. Unless this leads to some sort of thought police or something of that nature ( which it wont ) I just really dont see the big deal.

Would you care if something like this happen to you or a family member?

DPPA was passed in the aftermath of the murder of actress Rebecca Schaeffer, slain by a stalker who found her residential address through the California Department of Motor Vehicles. The law bars states and their employees from selling or releasing personal information such as Social Security numbers, photographs, addresses, telephone numbers and birthdays..

 

[Sainku]

Would you care if something like this happen to you or a family member?

How would a fancy ID card, lead to stalkers getting adresses and killing people? If anything they would have seen that stalker getting access to something which he shouldnt have, and arrested him.



edit: Off-topic, but it took me 2 years to get 100 posts.That is crazy

 

[RZAL]

How would a fancy ID card, lead to stalkers getting adresses and killing people? If anything they would have seen that stalker getting access to something which he shouldnt have, and arrested him.



edit: Off-topic, but it took me 2 years to get 100 posts.That is crazy

He did get the information and at the time it was legal for him to obtian it. I think you’re missing the point, go back and read the post I was responding to and the CNN article.

 

[Sainku]

He did get the information and at the time it was legal for him to obtian it. I think you’re missing the point, go back and read the post I was responding to and the CNN article.

You quoted me so I figured you were responding to me and you didnt provide a link to the article just a little piece of it. However I found it after a google search. It was legal for him to get it before, now the records are not public. So if anyone were to try to get those records again, they would be arrested. I dont really see how this has anything to do with id cards, but to answer your first question yes I would be sad if my someone in my family was killed by a stalker.

Please correct me if I misunderstood or missed something, because at the moment Im really confused.

 

[RZAL]

You quoted me so I figured you were responding to me and you didnt provide a link to the article just a little piece of it. However I found it after a google search. It was legal for him to get it before, now the records are not public. So if anyone were to try to get those records again, they would be arrested. I dont really see how this has anything to do with id cards, but to answer your first question yes I would be sad if my someone in my family was killed by a stalker.

Please correct me if I misunderstood or missed something, because at the moment Im really confused.

Sorry I thought you were following the thread.

There are a lot of loop holes in that law, besides electronic information is not safe in the age of cyber technology. I think the National Id card would be a good thing (if its used properly) however I wont support the use of RFID or GPS systems. We can already be tracked by face recognition, credit card transactions, cell phones, SS# and so on and so fourth. Why would we allow anyone the ability to track us 24/7 360degrees, let alone have full access to our entire personal, financial, medical, criminal, etc. records?

How this relates is based on how and what the National ID Card will be used for.

 

[Sainku]

Sorry I thought you were following the thread.

I was, but I missed your post in response to tr0n, apologies.

I think the National Id card would be a good thing (if its used properly) however I wont support the use of RFID or GPS systems.

I agree, but so far ID cards have not been implemented very well.
The police and law enforcement in general have been extremely bad about abusing it in other countries so far.

My "somone watching me sit at a computer" was a bad example as I doubt if we do have the cards they will track you 24/7.

If it was implemented I believe it would be used as a credit card of sorts, a basis for services, and a form of identification. I dont think it would be used to track you 24/7. It may be used to keep track of you in certain places, and keep you from getting or getting into certain places and things.

Why would we allow anyone full access to our entire personal, financial, medical, criminal, etc. records?

There are a ton of reasons for people to have quick access to medical and criminal records, however I think if ID cards were implemented personal and financial infromation would be kept extremely private, if at all.

There is of course the issue of security, the thought of having some random person capable of accessing all your private infromation and current location is terrifying but im sure there are a couple bright people in the government who could figure out how to deal with this.

Unless I am mistaken right now we just dont know if or how it will be implemented or what infromation it will contain so I guess it is a little silly to argue about it. Depending on how it is done it could be the start of a dystopian future. or something similar to a credit card which will just make our lives easier and safer.