The Next Class Pack = The Heavy

DigiQ8

DigiQ8

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Robin Walker mentioned on Team Fortress's 2 Official Blog that The Heavy is indeed the next class to get updated.


We do design collaboratively at Valve, and one of the side effects of it is that we really need to be able to evaluate design ideas as objectively as possible. Otherwise design meetings would devolve into subjective arguing. We've found that the best method of working objectively is to have clear goals up front. Once we've got clear goals, we can throw a bunch of ideas up on the board and measure how well each idea achieves those goals. Often the work of testing those ideas against the goals causes us to further refine or clarify the goals.
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You can read more here.
 
well, i guess many people here were right!

I cant wait, but i guess i'll have too. :(
 
BABIES

I wonder what else, if anything, will be released with it.
 
Gonna be a boon for spies when it comes, a well deserved reward for going through all this pyro crap, all those massive impossible to miss backs!
 
Man, I've prided myself for being a good heavy :(

OH WELL THIS SHIT WILL ROCK SOME COCKS.
 
I really can't see how the new melee weapon can be anything other than a huge pair of boxing gloves. It's just so fitting for the class. Captain Ivan Drago: "I defeat all man. I cannot be defeated. If he dies...he dies." =D

As for the minigun, I suppose they could go with two obvious paths, the first being a super duper high rate of fire gun which has the [unfortunate] ability to overheat rather quickly. It still fits with the Heavy's style, as the player will still have to make "economic" choices on the battlefield. If not this gun, perhaps a slower-firing, more powerful .50 cal machine gun. Or Valve can be awesome and surprise everyone as usual.

As for the shotgun, well, I really hope each class that uses it gets a unique alternate. I'd hate for there to be a universal shotgun replacement. I can't really think of anything good for the heavy here though.

Finally, what about a new class ability, a la the compression blast of the pyro? My brother and I were thinking that they could implement a sprint feature (for the heavy exclusively, of course) that would burn out very quickly, and be useful to run away from a really sticky situation, such as running in with a medic, only to have your medic get destroyed right away, with you now having to deal with multiple enemies. One of my main motivations for even suggesting this is due to my powerful want to see a Heavy running with his arms flailing in a very clumsy manner, with him preferably screaming like the ogre that he is. It would be hilarious and effective in the right situations. My brother also thought it would be hilarious if that, during his sprint (with his arms flailing), any enemies that you might run into would take melee damage, so as to encourage death-bound heavies to charge at their enemies wildly. :D

The sprint would of course have to be extremely limited with a slow recharge rate (though rechargeable via Resupply Cabinets, dispensers, etc.), but it would have to last long enough to get the Heavy from either spawn point on 2fort to their own side of the bridge. I think that's pretty reasonable.

Anyway, I want to hear other people's suggestions!
 
Once the heavy-rampage starts, the first thing I'm going to do is play as a heavy, and spam the "Jeers" voice command to get the desired result: "Too many little men on this team!"
 
I'll be very surprised if they manage to make the most boring and underpowered (without his umbilical-chord-of-a-maternal-figure Medic) class worth playing.

I'll also be surprised if they actually bother to test the upgrades properly, unlike what they did with the Pyro changes (clearly broken, clearly overpowered, clearly not tested enough).
 
Crispy said:
I'll also be surprised if they actually bother to test the upgrades properly, unlike what they did with the Pyro changes (clearly broken, clearly overpowered, clearly not tested enough).
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Please explain how the Pyro update is "clearly broken, clearly overpowered, clearly not tested enough".
 
Man this is going to be sick! Heavy with boxing gloves now thats an idea. I thought the Brass Knuckles was a given.
 
saratos said:
Please explain how the Pyro update is "clearly broken, clearly overpowered, clearly not tested enough".
Click to expand...

Before:
- Pyro flame hit detection was broken; sometimes it was hitting, sometimes it wasn't.
- Pyro had falloff on the Flamethrower.
- Pyro excelled in close-quarters, with very little accuracy and damage at longer range.

After Pyro pack update:
- Pyro flame hit detection fixed.
- Pyro falloff on the Flamethrower completely removed.
- Pyro Afterburner crit hit detection completely broken.
- Pyro Flare added, meaning Pyro still excels in close-quarters but also has a ranged DoT, area denial weapon, allowing Pyro to compete at all ranges unlike any other class.
- Pyro Afterburner loadout received +50HP making it the second toughest class and with no speed reduction.
- Pyros main counters (Engy, Soldier and Sniper) are all nerfed versus the Pyro; repairing Engy and camping Sniper can now be Flared from afar, Soldier can have rockets turned against him (basically nullified).

Basically, before the update Pyro was slightly underpowered, mostly because it's hit detection was broken. The update fixed this plus gave him a ludicrous amount of buffs that also nerfed his main threats, creating an overpowered class. Testing would have no doubt identified this imbalance.

If anything a focused on testing the Backburner alone would have surely identified that the crit detection was broken. Either this was a 'Known ship' or not enough testing was done. Either way, it's not up to Valve's usual levels of quality.
 
Crispy said:
Before:
- Pyro flame hit detection was broken; sometimes it was hitting, sometimes it wasn't.
- Pyro had falloff on the Flamethrower.
- Pyro excelled in close-quarters, with very little accuracy and damage at longer range.

After Pyro pack update:
- Pyro flame hit detection fixed.
- Pyro falloff on the Flamethrower completely removed.
- Pyro Afterburner crit hit detection completely broken.
- Pyro Flare added, meaning Pyro still excels in close-quarters but also has a ranged DoT, area denial weapon, allowing Pyro to compete at all ranges unlike any other class.
- Pyro Afterburner loadout received +50HP making it the second toughest class and with no speed reduction.
- Pyros main counters (Engy, Soldier and Sniper) are all nerfed versus the Pyro; repairing Engy and camping Sniper can now be Flared from afar, Soldier can have rockets turned against him (basically nullified).

Basically, before the update Pyro was slightly underpowered, mostly because it's hit detection was broken. The update fixed this plus gave him a ludicrous amount of buffs that also nerfed his main threats, creating an overpowered class. Testing would have no doubt identified this imbalance.

If anything a focused on testing the Backburner alone would have surely identified that the crit detection was broken. Either this was a 'Known ship' or not enough testing was done. Either way, it's not up to Valve's usual levels of quality.
Click to expand...

On paper, he sounds extremely broken. In practice, the flare gun is still a mid ranged weapon, because the projectile is only twice as fast as a rocket but has no splash damage to compensate. It's still completely useless against a sniper, and I can't count the number of times I've laughed at pyros as an engy when they fire that little pop gun at me. Provided it hits, a good engy normally has a dispenser no more than a few feet away when he's repairing. I'd go so far as to say the weapon isn't even close range, that thing is no match for the basic shotgun or the spreader. And of course against another pyro you may as well be shooting twinkies at the guy. The puff thing that he does rarely, rarely works as intended against a soldier. I've seen 1, maybe 2 saves come of it. It's not as though he has some kind of force field that prevents the missles from hitting him, you have to be skilled at using it. Even if you are skilled though, an equally skilled soldier has the upper hand every time since he can fire to the side of the pyro, doing splash damage and never giving him the chance to use his little shield. The update did exactly what it was intended to do, make the pyro a class that requires some skill.

The crit bug was a big deal, but it's been fixed now, no more crying about that and they've put some of that falloff back on, so that should alleviate a bit of that problem. Also, it's called the Backburner.
 
The Heavy needs a skateboard, that lets him move faster, but when he shoots his gun it pushes him backwards.
 
Que-Ever said:
The Heavy needs a skateboard, that lets him move faster, but when he shoots his gun it pushes him backwards.
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:D


Also, although I am a bit disappointed they are not doing Scout next I am still interested if they do something to "make Heavy a class that needs skill" as well, because right now I feel it's not that.
 
I'm betting on them giving the heavy an M60 type machine gun to replace the minigun. It would allow him to move a little faster, he wouldn't have to wait for the gun to warm up before it fires, it would be more accurate, but would have a much slower rate of fire and do less damage per hit.

Also i would rather just see them give the heavy 2 replacements for the minigun and 1 for his fists and just leave the shotgun alone. Maybe the M60 and then a big powerful slow firing weapon with not alot of ammo.
 
Crispy said:
Before:
- Pyro flame hit detection was broken; sometimes it was hitting, sometimes it wasn't.
- Pyro had falloff on the Flamethrower.
1. - Pyro excelled in close-quarters, with very little accuracy and damage at longer range.

After Pyro pack update:
- Pyro flame hit detection fixed.
2. - Pyro falloff on the Flamethrower completely removed.
3. - Pyro Afterburner crit hit detection completely broken.
- Pyro Flare added, meaning Pyro still excels in close-quarters but 4. also has a ranged DoT, area denial weapon, allowing Pyro to compete at all ranges unlike any other class.
5. - Pyro Afterburner loadout received +50HP making it the second toughest class and with no speed reduction.
-6. Pyros main counters (Engy, Soldier and Sniper) are all nerfed versus the Pyro; repairing Engy and camping Sniper can now be Flared from afar, Soldier can have rockets turned against him (basically nullified).

Basically, before the update Pyro was slightly underpowered, mostly because it's hit detection was broken. The update fixed this plus gave him a ludicrous amount of buffs that also nerfed his main threats, creating an overpowered class. Testing would have no doubt identified this imbalance.
7.
If anything a focused on testing the Backburner alone would have surely identified that the crit detection was broken. Either this was a 'Known ship' or not enough testing was done. Either way, it's not up to Valve's usual levels of quality.
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1. Not true. Soldier, Heavy, Demo, and even Medics were able to kill him in Close Quarters and then run for health. Irrelevant, either way, because we shouldn't be comparing the underpowered Pyro to the new one: other classes should be a comparison point.


2. This was fixed. I think the smarter thing to do would have just been to remove normal crits from the Backburner.


3. Seriously don't know what you are talking about. The Backburner has really good detection: you have to be right behind somebody to crit them. Unless you were referring to how he could flame a group of people even if only one was facing away.


4. BS. The Flare gun is only as good as the Shotty, if not less so: it just has a different effect. The point of flames is to cause chaos. People run away for health or a medic, and you disrupt. The point of the flamethrowers is to excel in close quarters, with the chaos as an added bonus. The Flare gun ONLY causes chaos, and rarely kills.


5. I challenge you to find a situation in which the Pyro is not using that extra health to help him run away. The fact of the matter is he still has to be sneaky since his effectiveness is very low from even 10 ft away. He should be able to survive his OWN ambush. You act as if his regular gun didn't also receive an upgrade.


6. Well, duh. Not to mention that your examples of his cheapness are ridiculous, but since the characters were overpowered against the Pyro in the first place, if the Pyro is upgraded, they will be nerfed vs. him.

Let me explain why your scenarios are heinous. If you have a Pyro and a sniper of equal skill before the update, and the Pyro is in the Snipers view, the most the Pyro can do is make inaccurate shotty attempts while the sniper has all the opportunity to headshot him. Post-Update: IF you choose the Flaregun which is bad for killing retreating foes and pyros or underwater enemies, and IF you are in the same scenario as Pyro pre-update, then the sniper will un-zoom, dodge, and then zoom and fire again while you take forever to reload. The lower the skill of both players, the scenario stays the same. Only difference is that both have worse aim and reactions.

Pyro vs. Soldier: The Soldier can fire faster than the Pyro can reflect, #1, and, #2, the soldier should be using his shotty anyways. If the Pyro has the Backburner, the soldier is free to bounce him into the air and kill him.

Pyro vs. Engie: I don't think the engie was ever a counter to the Pyro. Either way, if the engie is near his buildings, why aren't you using the flamethrower up close? The flaregun is worthless against an engie next to his buildings, and if he is trying to repair them so desperately, he will probably die soon anyway.

I am surprised that you didn't even use any of his counters besides Soldier, such as Heavy, Medic, or Demo.


7. WHAT crit detection problems are you Talking About?
 
7. WHAT crit detection problems are you Talking About?
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There was a problem where if the Backburner started hitting someone from behind it wouldn't stop critting if they turned around. Regardless, it's been fixed.
 
Oh man mass Heavy's is going to be way more fun than the mass Medic and Pyro we had to put up with.
 
Au-heppa said:
:D


Also, although I am a bit disappointed they are not doing Scout next I am still interested if they do something to "make Heavy a class that needs skill" as well, because right now I feel it's not that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wonder how they're choosing which class to do next. They certainly aren't doing the least-played classes first. About the heavy, I hope they make a primary weapon that requires reloading but either allows faster movement, more health or health regeneration. This might require that skill you're talking about. I will also allow you to be successful if you don't have the benefit of a medic at your side.
 
All these pyro = broken naysayers are morons.
 
Jintor said:
All these pyro = broken naysayers are morons.
Click to expand...
According to your statement, Valve are morons (Fixed being the opposite of broken).
Team Fortress 2

* Fixed backburner's flame critical hits not being recalculated after collision. This meant that it would check if the target was looking away once and after that the flame could score a critical hit again even if the orientation changed
Click to expand...


saratos said:
quotes in bold below:
Click to expand...

1. Not true. Soldier, Heavy, Demo, and even Medics were able to kill him in Close Quarters and then run for health. Irrelevant, either way, because we shouldn't be comparing the underpowered Pyro to the new one: other classes should be a comparison point.
Medics kill a Pyro? 1 on 1? Are you on crack or something? All things being equal, Heavies 1 on 1 cannot outdo a Pyro, the Pyro could just dance round them or run away (175HP and 100% speed allows you to take on Heavies and survive as long as you don't charge them from the front).


2. This was fixed. I think the smarter thing to do would have just been to remove normal crits from the Backburner.
Yes, it was fixed after the initial release. My point was that the release changes were not tested enough and the Pyro was overpowered. Given that he has received two fixes that have effectively nerfed him since the update, that would seem to point towards me being correct.


3. Seriously don't know what you are talking about. The Backburner has really good detection: you have to be right behind somebody to crit them. Unless you were referring to how he could flame a group of people even if only one was facing away.
Seriously YOU don't know what YOU are talking about. Valve have just fixed this problem, proving that it did exist on release which is one of the things I was talking about when I said it hadn't been tested enough (or was released in full knowledge of this bug), check the changelogs.

4. BS. The Flare gun is only as good as the Shotty, if not less so: it just has a different effect. The point of flames is to cause chaos. People run away for health or a medic, and you disrupt. The point of the flamethrowers is to excel in close quarters, with the chaos as an added bonus. The Flare gun ONLY causes chaos, and rarely kills.
Show me what part of "the Flare gun is a ranged, damage over time, area denial weapon" is incorrect. None of what you just said disproves this point. The Shotty is a solid mid-range weapon, but the Flare gun can be shot once to force the enemy to seek health. If they stand their ground they die, if they follow you they get flamed. It is incredibly effective at forcing people off the point (since no capture points, except on Hydro, are right next to health packs) or weakening them so they cannot defend themselves effectively.

5. I challenge you to find a situation in which the Pyro is not using that extra health to help him run away. The fact of the matter is he still has to be sneaky since his effectiveness is very low from even 10 ft away. He should be able to survive his OWN ambush. You act as if his regular gun didn't also receive an upgrade.
So the Pyro with Backburner has 25 more health points than a Soldier, but is 25% faster. He can also wield the Flare gun to do ranged damage before he closes in (or just to keep enemies at bay while he closes the gap or runs from cover to cover). Anyone with cojones is using that extra 50HP to laugh at Soldiers (it takes on average 3 rockets to kill Backburner Pyros, or 2 perfect direct hits, which, if the Soldier is close enough - will also do 100% splashback damage, instantly killing the Soldier in the process). The extra 50HP really helps against Soldiers and Demos and Heavies. If you're using it to run away you're still benefitting, you just have a more conservative style of play.


6. Well, duh. Not to mention that your examples of his cheapness are ridiculous, but since the characters were overpowered against the Pyro in the first place, if the Pyro is upgraded, they will be nerfed vs. him.

the sniper will un-zoom, dodge, and then zoom and fire again while you take forever to reload.
This is where you would take cover to reload and I would rush closer while he is unzoomed and powerless to stop me. It is an effective weapon in this scenario if used as covering fire. Don't expect to kill a Sniper with it, but it does disrupt their play, which is effective.

Pyro vs. Soldier: The Soldier can fire faster than the Pyro can reflect, #1, and, #2, the soldier should be using his shotty anyways. If the Pyro has the Backburner, the soldier is free to bounce him into the air and kill him.
Soldiers don't hit you with every rocket unless they're godlike, so you don't need to deflect every rocket. Deflecting really isn't that difficult, you simply have to point in the same direction as the Soldier and press the button a second before impact. Since rockets are slow-moving this is not that tricky. The main argument against rocket deflection is that it takes up the same ammo as your primary weapon, so if a Soldier is persistant enough you will eventually run out of ammo (he may run out of Primary but he will be able to fall back on his Shotgun).

Pyro vs. Engie: I don't think the engie was ever a counter to the Pyro. Either way, if the engie is near his buildings, why aren't you using the flamethrower up close? The flaregun is worthless against an engie next to his buildings, and if he is trying to repair them so desperately, he will probably die soon anyway.Engy (with his ability to build a sentry gun that the Pyro has NO counter to) is probably the strongest counter to the Pyro, since a Sentry never misses whereas a Sniper can miss. I will concede that the Flare gun will only work against an Engy who leaves his nest, and it takes ages to destroy an unmanned Sentry with a Flare gun. However, in the cases where a savvy Soldier has been aiming to kill the Engy with splash damage instead of the Sentry, and the Engy dies, the Flare can be used to shoot the Sentry (while the Soldier reloads). The Flare gun will also still deal damage to the Engy, which is not replenished instantly, so will help a Soldier or Demo to take the Engy out quickly in the absence of a Sniper (Snipers not usually being used to spearhead an attack because of their vulnerability in close quarters).

I am surprised that you didn't even use any of his counters besides Soldier, such as Heavy, Medic, or Demo.
Mainly because I don't consider Heavy a strong counter, the second he starts firing a Pyro has the speed and the health to survive. If the Pyro has a Flare gun then the Heavy is slow enough to hit easily. A Heavy with a Medic is, of course, a different matter, but Heavy+Medic is a medium to strong counter to most scenarios in the game. The Medic is not a hard counter when you consider you can attack the Medic directly and cripple the entire opposing team. The Medic itself cannot hold its own against a Pyro. When you consider that the Medic has to be within a short distance of the target to act as a counter, it is obvious that. The Medic is not a hard counter in the same way a 'spellcaster' would be, since a spellcaster could provide counters from distance and safety. (Spellcaster is an analogy, obviously I'm not saying TF2 should have RPG classes.) I will concede that a Demo is a strong counter to the Pyro, but I would still say that it is possible to hit a Demo with the Flare gun and weaken him.


7. WHAT crit detection problems are you Talking About?
See post above.

---

Most of the above post is arguing about the minor points that made the Pyro overpowered after the update. All of these smaller changes dependant on weapon selection attributed to the end effect. But the major contributors were the removal of falloff damage coupled with the fixing of the hit detection, and the Backburner's broken crit detection.

Since these are undisputable facts that have received improvements to re-balance the Pyro, there is nothing you can say to disprove my argument, which is:

"The Pyro unlockables update was not tested enough or was released in full knowledge that the Pyro was broken and overpowered". To a tester or to a hardcore player, it is obvious that the Pyro was A) broken and B) overpowered with the first update [Edit - some of you are ignoring this last part of the argument]. The fact he has received fixes that reduce his effectiveness proves this. I am saying that either Valve didn't test this properly or that they released this sub-par update willingly. Neither is in-character for Valve, which is why I am surprised and disappointed.
 
This discussion has gotten angrier than anything in the politics forum and that's saying something...
 
What do you expect? A forum is bound to get more passionate about something it was created to discuss.
 
Didn't you just say this?

Woah! Deja Vu!

:p
 
Crispy said:
1.Medics kill a Pyro? 1 on 1? Are you on crack or something? All things being equal, Heavies 1 on 1 cannot outdo a Pyro, the Pyro could just dance round them or run away (175HP and 100% speed allows you to take on Heavies and survive as long as you don't charge them from the front).

2. Seriously YOU don't know what YOU are talking about. Valve have just fixed this problem, proving that it did exist on release which is one of the things I was talking about when I said it hadn't been tested enough (or was released in full knowledge of this bug), check the changelogs.

3. Show me what part of "the Flare gun is a ranged, damage over time, area denial weapon" is incorrect. None of what you just said disproves this point. The Shotty is a solid mid-range weapon, but the Flare gun can be shot once to force the enemy to seek health. If they stand their ground they die, if they follow you they get flamed. It is incredibly effective at forcing people off the point (since no capture points, except on Hydro, are right next to health packs) or weakening them so they cannot defend themselves effectively.

4. So the Pyro with Backburner has 25 more health points than a Soldier, but is 25% faster. He can also wield the Flare gun to do ranged damage before he closes in (or just to keep enemies at bay while he closes the gap or runs from cover to cover). Anyone with cojones is using that extra 50HP to laugh at Soldiers (it takes on average 3 rockets to kill Backburner Pyros, or 2 perfect direct hits, which, if the Soldier is close enough - will also do 100% splashback damage, instantly killing the Soldier in the process). The extra 50HP really helps against Soldiers and Demos and Heavies. If you're using it to run away you're still benefitting, you just have a more conservative style of play.


5. This is where you would take cover to reload and I would rush closer while he is unzoomed and powerless to stop me. It is an effective weapon in this scenario if used as covering fire. Don't expect to kill a Sniper with it, but it does disrupt their play, which is effective.

6. Soldiers don't hit you with every rocket unless they're godlike, so you don't need to deflect every rocket. Deflecting really isn't that difficult, you simply have to point in the same direction as the Soldier and press the button a second before impact. Since rockets are slow-moving this is not that tricky. The main argument against rocket deflection is that it takes up the same ammo as your primary weapon, so if a Soldier is persistant enough you will eventually run out of ammo (he may run out of Primary but he will be able to fall back on his Shotgun).

7. Engy (with his ability to build a sentry gun that the Pyro has NO counter to) is probably the strongest counter to the Pyro, since a Sentry never misses whereas a Sniper can miss. I will concede that the Flare gun will only work against an Engy who leaves his nest, and it takes ages to destroy an unmanned Sentry with a Flare gun. However, in the cases where a savvy Soldier has been aiming to kill the Engy with splash damage instead of the Sentry, and the Engy dies, the Flare can be used to shoot the Sentry (while the Soldier reloads). The Flare gun will also still deal damage to the Engy, which is not replenished instantly, so will help a Soldier or Demo to take the Engy out quickly in the absence of a Sniper (Snipers not usually being used to spearhead an attack because of their vulnerability in close quarters).
Click to expand...
1. I was able to kill heavies from behind before the update, in collaboration with the shotty. If, by equal, you mean neither has a vantage point or a head start, the Pyro will definitely lose vs. Heavy. Vs Medic, before the update, even if the Pyro had ambushed it should have lost. The bad flame hitboxes did not allow the Pyro to pursue the nimble Medic with the flamethrower, and the shotty didn't kill fast enough-even in collaboration with flames- if the Medic was using the Blutsauger. Now, the Medic is far less of a counter, as he should be, and has to rely on teammates more against a pyro.

2. I literally meant, I didn't know what you were talking about. I hadn't experienced any glitch of the sort.

3. Oops. Messed up my bolds. What I meant was, he is not really competitive with the flaregun at any range, compared to other classes. He is supposed to be aiming at unaware or static enemies with it. At mid-range, you are far better off approaching with the Shotty, and the shotty is way better against retreating foes. Sure, you can scare people off with it if they have no Medic or health near by, but they live to fight again. If they are on the point, I assure you, you are better off just walking up with your main.

4. So what you are saying is that a Pyro with the backburner is better off fighting an aware Soldier while chasing him and wielding the flaregun than he is just running away and not dying? Rule #1 for Pyros: if he sees you and you are not in range, use shotty of flaregun and run away. VS heavy, it only helps in an ambush (in which case, you aught to win). VS Demo, if he is not camping with stickies, sure, it helps you close the gaps while you shoot at him, but I play Demo a lot, and I know that he has a fair chance of hitting the Pyro numerous times with nades before you catch up.

5. So, in this scenario, you are merely trying to distract the Sniper while getting by? Well, first off, there are lots of other, safer, paths to get you by a Sniper. Second, the Shotgun is just as good for firing at a Sniper to help you get by him.

6. In the scenario you specified, the Pyro is perfect at reflecting and the Soldier is not prefect at firing. That is not fair.

7. Again, if the team is working together to kill the Sentry, it will go down. The influence of the Pyro is negligible, unless he is really good and goes in to circle strafe it while flaming (a tactic which was viable pre-update).
 
In all fairness, I've had rockets deflected by a pyro that I had aimed well above his head at someone behind him.
 
Crispy said:
According to your statement, Valve are morons (Fixed being the opposite of broken).
Click to expand...

Learn2spot difference between balancing/tweaking and repairing broken coding.
 
Oh my goodness you really are too wrong to argue with. I give up.
 
Crispy said:
Oh my goodness you really are too wrong to argue with. I give up.
Click to expand...
Then I guess I win. If I was that wrong, you just shouldn't have posted. Since you posted this, you have admitted that I out-reasoned you.
 
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