The PETA (Yes, it's time to talk about them)

[Absinthe]

Why would they do that? Penn & Teller focus on popular or well-known myths, theories, and ideas. Things that have taken root in public consciousness. Their intent is not to dispense justice, but dispel what they see as widespread fallacies.

Now, you can certainly argue about how successful they are in that regard. I have my disagreements with them on other issues, like gun control. But you first need to understand what the show is about. Attacking the faceless meat industry would not be in keeping with the show's platform and it's unfair to criticize them because of that.

 

[Kyorisu]

Seems to me people are ignorant about the issues because they want to be ignorant.

Where was I being ignorant?

 

[-Psy-]

Pssh, I love steak because it tastes like murder. yum yum.

Sigged.

Yes, PETA are full of crazy bastards who harm other people for the sake of animals. ANIMALS FOR CHRISTS SAKE!

 

[Tyguy]

Where was I being ignorant?

I wasn't calling you ignorant, i was labeling the majority of the population who have been deemed uninformed about the issue.

 

[Kyorisu]

Wasley's Piggery in South Australia showed sows confined in stalls so small the animals could not even turn around. It may have shown a worst-case scenario (the piggery's stalls breached the law in that, at 55 centimetres wide, they were five centimetres narrower than the industry minimum) but such confinement is not unusual; these dry sow stalls (for confining pregnant sows) are used in 60 per cent of piggeries. Sit these alongside practices such as tail docking, ear clipping and castration without anaesthetic, and there is more to the pork chop than meets the eye.

Amanda Reagan, senior policy analyst for pork producer-owned Australian Pork Limited, says the industry is always pushing for higher standards of animal welfare and that practices are in place for the good of the pigs.

"Pigs are incredibly territorial when they are pregnant," she says. "They can get very aggressive and compete for food. In a group housing situation there can be incredible fighting causing horrific injuries, loss of pregnancy and in some cases death. The sow stalls are there to protect the sow and the babies."

"What we're talking about is pigs, not pets," she says. "We are not putting emotional anthropomorphism into play, we are actually growing the pigs for food according to a well-regulated code of practice. Pig farmers care about their animals. If you don't look after your animals, your product is inferior, so it is in the interest of farmers to look after their animals."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/epicure/hard-to-swallow/2006/08/21/1156012441384.html?page=2

I wasn't calling you ignorant, i was labeling the majority of the population who have been deemed uninformed about the issue.

Should have wrote "some people" then. We aren't all cruel monsters I can assure you.

 

[Gray Fox]

Yes, I'm insane for eating meat. I believe you also said you condoned violence against meat eaters in the previous topic, yes?

Why the f*ck do you quote me? We had two previous debates and in both of them you failed to respond and defend your point of view.

And yes you are insane for condoning torture and killing of animals for your pleasure, and yes I condone violence against meat eaters just as much as I condone violence against psychopaths that torture and kill their own pets for pleasure. It's basically the same thing, except that the average American doesn't get confronted with it, because it happens behind close doors.

And I do hope you understand that your last statement puts you on the same level as creationist, hell even lower, at least they try to come up with fake reasons.

 

[No Limit]

Why would they do that? Penn & Teller focus on popular or well-known myths, theories, and ideas. Things that have taken root in public consciousness. Their intent is not to dispense justice, but dispel what they see as widespread fallacies.

Now, you can certainly argue about how successful they are in that regard. I have my disagreements with them on other issues, like gun control. But you first need to understand what the show is about. Attacking the faceless meat industry would not be in keeping with the show's platform and it's unfair to criticize them because of that.

And it is entertaining but as I said it is dishonest. What it does is equate all people of animal rights to that one perticluar person, and they know this. Because of this their show is just as much bullshit as anything else. Sure, they admit it, but it doesn't solve anything. But Penn and Teller (whom I like) aside the issue that their cause is important still stands. And this is coming from a guy that loves his steak. I certainly don't agree with everything PETA does or represents but I think their main cause is a good one. By the same token I don't agree with everything the Democrats do or represent but when election time comes I still end up voting for them so I have the lesser of 2 evils.

 

[Kyorisu]

Gray Fox if he ignored you, you can ignore him. Leave the personal debates outside kthnx.

And it is entertaining but as I said it is dishonest. What it does is equate all people of animal rights to that one perticluar person

PETA do the same thing with animal farms.

This farm is a disgrace, therefore they must all be! - YOU CANNOT REFUTE THIS STATEMENT IT IS AN ABSOLUTE TRUTH. You say otherwise and your a filthy nazi/jew/corporate/scumbag meat eater who can rot in hell.

I mean hi.

 

[No Limit]

PETA do the same thing with animal farms.

This farm is a disgrace, therefore they must all be! - YOU CANNOT REFUTE THIS STATEMENT IT IS AN ABSOLUTE TRUTH. You say otherwise and your a filthy nazi/jew/corporate/scumbag meat eater who can rot in hell.

I mean hi.

I would venture out and say that all farms ran to massproduce food treat their animals unethically and they do this for the sole purpose of increased profit. How much money would you want to bet on the fact that I am right?

 

[Tyguy]

And yes you are insane for condoning torture and killing of animals for your pleasure, and yes I condone violence against meat eaters just as much as I condone violence against psychopaths that torture and kill their own pets for pleasure. It's basically the same thing, except that the average American doesn't get confronted with it, because it happens behind close doors.

When did he say he condones torture and killing of animals?

-4 points for a stupid post

 

[Kyorisu]

I would venture out and say that all farms ran to massproduce food treat their animals unethically. How much money would you want to bet on the fact that I am right?

Would you now? All farms you say? My friend I can take a 30 minute drive down the road and prove otherwise to some extent. Of course they are run unethically I never said they where otherwise. My point is that some of us who have/do work in the industry actually give a damn.

Your alternative is slow produced food correct? A good portion of our 6-7 billion peeps are going to be struck for affording food. Less food = higher cost.

 

[Tyguy]

Would you now? All farms you say? My friend I can take a 30 minute drive down the road and prove otherwise to some extent. Of course they are run unethically I never said they where otherwise. My point is that some of us who have/do work in the industry actually give a damn.

What kinds of regulations are there for these types of places? Do they follow a strict code of conduct?

Im asking purely out of curiosity.

 

[MJ12]

Theres some terrible shit we do, unnessisary testing. Like I recall one was they put a baby chip in a small closed hole for several months, they opened it up months later to see how it would react. Obviously the thing was all messed up, it just sat there.

But at the same time we test stuff on chimps that could later help/save millions of lives, so the pros can often outweigh the cons.

 

[Kyorisu]

What kinds of regulations are there for these types of places? Do they follow a strict code of conduct?

There is a code of conduct that must be followed or you face fines which you do not want. I could try and find an old workbook for you which would contain a good lot of detail on the subject. Apart from that at least where I worked we (read: workers) did go out of our way to make sure things where done correctly. There is always a push within the industry itself for better standards of animal care.

/hmm actually now that I look around technically everything in my books is not to be revealed to anyone outside the job. Not sure what sort of legal problem quoting it would cause. Industry secrets and the like, not some sort of conspiracy against revealing evil. There is no evil it's a work manual.

 

[Gray Fox]

When did he say he condones torture and killing of animals?

-4 points for a stupid post

Are you totally devoid of a brain. Not only do you fail in basic reasoning, you also make yourself sound more stupid by insulting me.
Now since you seem to be incapable of reasoning yourself I'm going to spell it out for you.

He buys and eats meat, he thus supports the meat industry, the meat industry in turn tortures and kill animals, so he can eat meat at a cheap price.
He does not need to eat meat. In our current modern states we are more then capable of feeding and dressing ourself comfortably without killing animals. So therefore he chooses to condone and actively support the torture of and killing of animals by buying meat because he likes the taste of their flesh.

 

[Kyorisu]

He does not need to eat meat.

I beg to differ as human beings I believe we are meant to eat not only meat but plants as well. If we don't need meat then why bother keeping all these animals around? May as well kill them and use their space to cultivate plants. Oh wait to some point plants need animals too.

/Edit to be honest I'm staying up (2:22AM) waiting for someone to reply to this http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2333922&postcount=107 I'll be back in the morning.

 

[Gray Fox]

I beg to differ as human beings I believe we are meant to eat not only meat but plants as well. If we don't need meat then why bother keeping all these animals around? May as well kill them and use their space to cultivate plants. Oh wait to some point plants need animals too.

There are plenty of people out there that do not eat meat, and plenty that do not eat any animals products and they survive fine.

And we are not meant for anything, we give our own lives meaning. We have evolved to eat meat, just as we have evolved to kill each other. It does not mean we should do either when we do not need to.

Plants we ourselves grow do not need meat, we take care of their nutritional needs and the reproductive needs. Not only that eating plans is more efficient way of getting nutritions form soil then it is to eat animals, every step on the food chain lowers the efficiency. Thats why people living on not so fertile land feed mostly on plants and keep their animals for eggs and milk, only slaughtering them when they are to old and become a burden.

Also it's generally more healthy to not eat meat or meat products if you do not need to, to get the right amount of nutritions, since animals are a lot more complex then plants and more can go wrong, they can get more diseases, it's a lot harder to preserve their flesh etc.

 

[Tyguy]

Not only do you fail in basic reasoning, you also make yourself sound more stupid by insulting me.

Kind of like the way you insulted him...

He buys and eats meat, he thus supports the meat industry, the meat industry in turn tortures and kill animals, so he can eat meat at a cheap price.
He does not need to eat meat. In our current modern states we are more then capable of feeding and dressing ourself comfortably without killing animals. So therefore he chooses to condone and actively support the torture of and killing of animals by buying meat because he likes the taste of their flesh.

I wanna understand what your saying, but all I read is "hey everyone, if your not a vegetarian your a murderer!!! blah blah blah, salad is good, yada yada yada....

Accept the fact that the majority of the world eats meat. Im all for shutting down these so called torture chambers and cruel animal practices, but take your own advice and try to be reasonable.

 

[Kyorisu]

Sheesh Gray you sound just like a bloody green and boy do I hate greens. Meat tastes good therefore theres is an urge to eat more why is that wrong? We have evolved to use meat in our daily lives and we get pretty creative with it too. A large majority of chefs and food lovers would laugh their arses off at you. Bravo lets just ditch the biggest area of food production.

I wanna understand what your saying, but all I read is "hey everyone, if your not a vegetarian your a murderer!!! blah blah blah, salad is good, yada yada yada....

Greens are like that. Don't follow their view and your immediately the most vile and grotesque thing they can think of. Speaking of grotesque I've been called some pretty bad things by greens "murderer, scumbag, torturer, inhumane, disgrace, poor excuse for a human being, etc" doesn't bother me a bit though. I know deep down inside they remember the last time they had a big hunk of steak inside them.

Feel free to quote that last bit, hilarious if you ask me.

 

[Qonfused]

And yes you are insane for condoning torture and killing of animals for your pleasure, and yes I condone violence against meat eaters just as much as I condone violence against psychopaths that torture and kill their own pets for pleasure.

Hot damn, then put me on the cross.

 

[Kyorisu]

Qonfused what I get from that quote is he'd condone violence against me a person that pushes for greater standards of animal care, just because I enjoy eating meat.

 

[Gray Fox]

I wanna understand what your saying, but all I read is "hey everyone, if your not a vegetarian your a murderer!!! blah blah blah, salad is good, yada yada yada....

Accept the fact that the majority of the world eats meat. Im all for shutting down these so called torture chambers and cruel animal practices, but take your own advice and try to be reasonable.

Take your reasoning back 200 years ago and apply it to the issue of slavery. Now those folks who were against slavery accepted that slavery was a part of live, they accepted that the majority of people approved it, but that didn't 't mean they stopped caring about the issue, the same go's for this. I believe this is wrong, and I want to change that.

Sheesh Gray you sound just like a bloody green and boy do I hate greens. Meat tastes good therefore theres is an urge to eat more why is that wrong? We have evolved to use meat in our daily lives and we get pretty creative with it too. A large majority of chefs and food lovers would laugh their arses off at you. Bravo lets just ditch the biggest area of food production.

Why should it be OK for animals to be tortured and die for your pleasure.

Greens are like that. Don't follow their view and your immediately the most vile and grotesque thing they can think of. Speaking of grotesque I've been called some pretty bad things by greens "murderer, scumbag, torturer, inhumane, disgrace, poor excuse for a human being, etc" doesn't bother me a bit though. I know deep down inside they remember the last time they had a big hunk of steak inside them.

Feel free to quote that last bit, hilarious if you ask me.

Thats not a good argument. A slavetrader could say the same thing about people who are against the slave trade. Hell a murder could say the same thing about you. That is atleast if you think murder should be illegal?

 

[Tyguy]

I dont eat slaves, so i dont get your point

 

[Kyorisu]

Take your reasoning back 200 years ago and apply it to the issue of slavery. Now those folks who were against slavery accepted that slavery was a part of live, they accepted that the majority of people approved it, but that didn't 't mean they stopped caring about the issue, the same go's for this. I believe this is wrong, and I want to change that.

Unless you can devlope a machine to automagically create slices of meat without killing animals we won't stop and you as a person or group won't be able to stop people eating meat.

Oh and slaves banished? Well fair enough they get paid now. Ever been to China?

 

[No Limit]

Would you now? All farms you say? My friend I can take a 30 minute drive down the road and prove otherwise to some extent. Of course they are run unethically I never said they where otherwise. My point is that some of us who have/do work in the industry actually give a damn.

Your alternative is slow produced food correct? A good portion of our 6-7 billion peeps are going to be struck for affording food. Less food = higher cost.

Where did I say all farms? I even put the word "mass" in bold to make sure you didn't misunderstand that.

My idea of a solution is not to end the mass production of food. My idea of a solution is to make that mass production humane. Will the cost of food probably go up? Sure. So what? At least these poor animals don't have to face these types of conditions so we can save a few cents per pound on our meat.

 

[No Limit]

Gray Fox, though I probably agree with you mostly your position that we shouldn't eat meat is part of the reason regular people don't take animal rights seriously. You can eat meat and still demand that animals are treated humanely.

 

[Kyorisu]

Where did I say all farms? I even put the word "mass" in bold to make sure you didn't misunderstand that.

All mass producing farms I understood what you meant. I live in Freeling a town in the northern suburbs of Adelaide, about 30 minutes drive south west takes you to Wasleys and from their you can find the pig farm I speak of, which is a bit north east (I think) of the nearest big suburb Gawler.

You can eat meat and still demand that animals are treated humanely.

Correct.

 

[Tyguy]

Gray Fox, though I probably agree with you mostly your position that we shouldn't eat meat is part of the reason regular people don't take animal rights seriously. You can eat meat and still demand that animals are treated humanely.

very well put.

(as im eating an italian sub with meat )

 

[repiV]

You can eat meat and still demand that animals are treated humanely.

Indeed, and as they should be. However, referring to your previous comment, it's not for you or I to dictate how meat is produced. The free market will decide that - true democracy in action. If everyone buys organic meat, mass produced shit will disappear.

 

[Gray Fox]

Qonfused what I get from that quote is he'd condone violence against me a person that pushes for greater standards of animal care, just because I enjoy eating meat.

Do you know how hypocritical that is on so many levels?

I dont eat slaves, so i dont get your point

The point is, just because it's common practice doesn't make it ok. There were a lot of things that we think are despicable that were once common practice.

But we developed things more efficient than slaves and even if you wanted to use slaves you'd be wasting money. The same does not apply for meat. If you enjoy meat you enjoy it. Vegetables will not fill that void.

Oh and slaves banished? Well fair enough they get paid now. Ever been to China?

So you would condone slavery if it was efficient. That is the reason you believe we abolished slavery? Should I even continue to reason with you?

And what does it matter if china still has slaves,what does that have to do with my point. how does that adress it.

 

[Kyorisu]

Indeed, and as they should be. However, referring to your previous comment, it's not for you or I to dictate how meat is produced. The free market will decide that - true democracy in action. If everyone buys organic meat, mass produced shit will disappear.

Crap why didn't I think of putting an economic spin on this. Well done nicely put.

 

[Gray Fox]

Gray Fox, though I probably agree with you mostly your position that we shouldn't eat meat is part of the reason regular people don't take animal rights seriously. You can eat meat and still demand that animals are treated humanely.

Killing for pleasure is in itself inhumane, although giving them good live before killing them is a shitload better then what we have now.
Besides just saying I'm for better treatment is not enough. Unless you stop eating meat, or actively pressure your politicians to change that. Or are prepared to pay more for meat that statement or wish is hollow.


Oh and funny thing about the free market, it favors dictatorship.

 

[Absinthe]

Why the f*ck do you quote me? We had two previous debates and in both of them you failed to respond and defend your point of view.

No, you failed to explain why there should be a dissolving of ethical distinctions between man and animal. You even went so far as to say that you "understood" why more radical proponents for animal rights use violence against meat eaters.

At that point, you became a joke. You're not worth conversing with if you think fire-bombing animal labs to save chickens is hunky-dory.

And yes you are insane for condoning torture and killing of animals for your pleasure, and yes I condone violence against meat eaters just as much as I condone violence against psychopaths that torture and kill their own pets for pleasure. It's basically the same thing, except that the average American doesn't get confronted with it, because it happens behind close doors.

Haha! You say PETA acts insane and pots calling kettles black, yet you are obviously worse since you outright admit that you view violence as a valid solution to people who have different diets. You're a fucking socipath.

Let's look at this objectively here. You want to hurt and possibly even kill people who eat chickens and cows. You're stupid.

And I do hope you understand that your last statement puts you on the same level as creationist, hell even lower, at least they try to come up with fake reasons.

I don't see how, and you've failed to explain. Talk out of your ass more.

 

[Kyorisu]

Do you know how hypocritical that is on so many levels?

Indeed I do and that's why I think your batshit insane, take that however you want. To be fair I'm applying my experience with greenies onto you don't take what I say too seriously. If you want me to explain I will just ask.

The point is, just because it's common practice doesn't make it ok. There were a lot of things that we think are despicable that were once common practice.

No it isn't okay, just like treating animals they way we do isn't okay. Hence why I care about animal standards.

So you would condone slavery if it was efficient. That is the reason you believe we abolished slavery? Should I even continue to reason with you?

Don't bother, you'd take the thread way off course. I realize I said something somewhat stupid, leave it at that. Obviously though slavery isn't as efficient as it use to be, factory lines anyone?

And what does it matter if china still has slaves,what does that have to do with my point. how does that adress it.

Surely human slaves would be higher on the agenda of shit thats broken that should maybe be fixed sometime. It's right on par with global warming on the list of crap that maybe should be looked at a tad more and not used as political scare campaign.

 

[Absinthe]

I don't think Gray Fox understands that slaves are human and the cow about to turn into a burger isn't.

He is stupid. +2

 

[repiV]

Crap why didn't I think of putting an economic spin on this. Well done nicely put.

Economics is everything. :thumbs:

Oh and funny thing about the free market, it favors dictatorship.

So the decentralisation of economic influence leads to the centralisation of power? Good luck explaining that one...

 

[No Limit]

Indeed, and as they should be. However, referring to your previous comment, it's not for you or I to dictate how meat is produced. The free market will decide that - true democracy in action. If everyone buys organic meat, mass produced shit will disappear.

Yes, the wonders of the free market. They have provided us with such great service including not being able to provide a major US city with simple water, transportation, or food after a disaster, something they were contracted to do. The same free market that enslaves people to get us cheap shit, same free market that pollutes our air with mercury, lead, and other equally nasty shit. Shall I go on?

I know people like you think government is inefficient. What you have to understand is that the politicians people like you vote for are inefficient at running government, with the right leaders government is perfectly capable of regulating an industry and providing other basic services.

 

[Kyorisu]

Yes, the wonders of the free market. They have provided us with such great service including not being able to provide a major US city with simple water, transportation, or food after a disaster, something they were contracted to do. The same free market that enslaves people to get us cheap shit, same free market that pollutes our air with mercury, lead, and other equally nasty shit. Shall I go on?

That's why it's free Please don't take the economic issue further, Well you can but keep it on topic.

 

[No Limit]

Killing for pleasure is in itself inhumane,

Sure, but what does that have to do with a discussion on the meat industry?

Besides just saying I'm for better treatment is not enough. Unless you stop eating meat, or actively pressure your politicians to change that. Or are prepared to pay more for meat that statement or wish is hollow.
Oh and funny thing about the free market, it favors dictatorship.

I choose to pressure the industry with my vote, I suggest you do the same. I also already stated I am willing to pay more for meat. If you don't want to eat meat, great, I solute you. Just leave my diet alone. What you have to realize is the second you tell a person that eats meat to stop eating that meat is the second that person tunes you totally out. So do yourself and all these animals a favor by concentrating on why the mass production of food in its current state is immoral, and not on what I should eat. You will get a lot more attention that way.

 

[repiV]

Yes, the wonders of the free market. They have provided us with such great service including not being able to provide a major US city with simple water, transportation, or food after a disaster, something they were contracted to do. The same free market that enslaves people to get us cheap shit, same free market that pollutes our air with mercury, lead, and other equally nasty shit. Shall I go on?

I know people like you think government is inefficient. What you have to understand is that the politicians people like you vote for are inefficient, government is perfectly capable of regulating an industry and providing other basic services.

What you've said here is totally irrelevant to what I was saying so I'm not going to address it as such.
It has nothing to do with efficiency in this case - the government has no place dictating what is and is not acceptable to free citizens. The only time they have legitimate cause to interfere in people's lives is to stop one person/organisation from infringing upon another's freedom to do as they please.
We do not need to be told what to do by any politician, we are capable adults.

Furthermore, if the will of the people is that we should produce meat humanely, that will be reflected in the free market. Again, nothing to do with efficiency - it's pure democracy. You're trying to dictate.