the seldom seen side of War

K e r b e r o s said:
But if I can declare war, and so can they, then that negates the idea only Nation States could do it. :D
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You can't. Stop arguing. You're wrong.

K e r b e r o s said:
My statement was meant to humorous Ennui, but evidently, your looking into this forum a little too seriously as if World Starvation will be solved by the off-topic and politics forum participaters.
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Maybe arguing in here won't change much (except other people's opinions, which might have significant influence at some point in the future, you never know), but it's better than being a jackass in a thread about the horrors of war.

You're constantly demonstrating your complete immaturity and lack of understanding, Kerberos, and it's to a degree that you don't even notice it.
 
CptStern said:
I agree, however I am consistantly accused of hating americans, which I think is rediculous
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Well..most people believe that if you hate the government of a country you also hate the people...it's the people who elect the government in the first place.
 
heh I hate harper (ok hate is too strong a word) it doesnt mean I hate canadians
 
You don't need to formally declare war to actually participate in a war. :\
 
CptStern said:
heh I hate harper (ok hate is too strong a word) it doesnt mean I hate canadians
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Yes, but pertaining to the structure on how a goverment is formed, it is only obvious that hating a government can mean to hate it's people. I'm not going to start another argument or anything, I'm just pointing out the people choose the government they want.
 
Some_God said:
You don't need to formally declare war to actually participate in a war. :\
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You don't, however invading/attacking would be taken as a declaration of war by the other country.
 
Some_God said:
You don't need to formally declare war to actually participate in a war. :\
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whether or not a war is formally declared it still doesnt mean individuals can declare war, which is what kerberos is claiming.

here read this:

"In most democratic nations, a Declaration of War customarily has to be passed by the legislature.

After the United Nations action in Korea, a number of democratic governments pursued usually limited warfare by characterizing them as something else, such as a "military action" or "armed response." This was most notably used by the United States in its more than decade-long involvement in Vietnam. Nations such as France, which had extensive colonies in which its military provided order, continued to intervene in their former colonies' affairs as police actions since they could no longer be deemed internal conflicts.

Not declaring war provides a way to circumvent constitutional safeguards against the executive declaring war, and also, in some cases, to avoid feeling bound by the established laws of war. Not using the word "war" is also seen as being more public relations-friendly. For these reasons, they have generally ceased to issue declarations of war, instead describing their actions by euphemisms such as "police action" or "authorized use of force."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war#Non-war_wars
 
dream431ca said:
Yes, but pertaining to the structure on how a goverment is formed, it is only obvious that hating a government can mean to hate it's people. I'm not going to start another argument or anything, I'm just pointing out the people choose the government they want.
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Not necessarily--did you see the 2000 US presidential election? Biggest bunch of bologna ever! Well, until the WMD argument for Iraq...;(

More Chomsky:
Unfortunately, you can't vote the rascals out, because you never voted them in, in the first place.
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And here he is summarizing the root of the problem with the US political system at the moment:
In the United States, the political system is a very marginal affair. There are two parties, so-called, but they're really factions of the same party, the Business Party. Both represent some range of business interests.
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You can't. Stop arguing. You're wrong.
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No, I'm not wrong. :D And I won't stop arguing. Thats for sure! :thumbs:

Maybe arguing in here won't change much (except other people's opinions, which might have significant influence at some point in the future, you never know), but it's better than being a jackass in a thread about the horrors of war.
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I agree, Ennui. You should find another desk job that suites you.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Only nation states can declare war? Stern, just say this to yourself for a moment.

"I declare war on cheese".
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That's not even funny.
 
Definately good post Stern people need to see this. They try to keep it from friends and family when talking but sometimes you're let in on how they're feeling. I hope all those guys made it home safely.
 
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but the presence of fear yet the will the go on."

I see your point CptStern, that you might think many people would see war as glorified. I know that war is probably the scarriest thing you can ever go through, but soldiers are trained not to cover up and start crying. It's a shame that soldiers do, but I wouldn't get the idea that this is what every soldier does under fire. Fear spreads, it's a disease, and you should never show it in the middle of a god damn battle. This is hardly a political topic though. Maybe, like the videos thread in off-topic, there should be a video thread for politics, including war videos (because since MacArthur, war is a political matter)
 
There's nothing poetic about war, that old romanticize thing died in vietnam. Take your quotes elsewhere.
 
Pesmerga said:
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but the presence of fear yet the will the go on."

I see your point CptStern, that you might think many people would see war as glorified. I know that war is probably the scarriest thing you can ever go through, but soldiers are trained not to cover up and start crying. It's a shame that soldiers do, but I wouldn't get the idea that this is what every soldier does under fire. Fear spreads, it's a disease, and you should never show it in the middle of a god damn battle. This is hardly a political topic though. Maybe, like the videos thread in off-topic, there should be a video thread for politics, including war videos (because since MacArthur, war is a political matter)
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You can't post most without getting banned. War is grisly and with today's electronics and tech it's captured in almost every light, even more than vietnam. It's just not shown on TV- but it certainly is out there in full on the web. Most are from the enemy's perspective because they film more. Luckily they also film their atrocities so the verdict of history will not show solely videos portraying resistance of an occupation but also the kidnappings, beheadings, car bombs, civillian killings, etc.
 
It's hard for me to respond to these type of things. Because obviously I feel great sympathy for the soldiers.

And if I go out and start to change my mind about my thoughts about the war... people from the radical left always insult and berate and say, "Told you so!", like immature morons, even if I shift to a view more of their side.

Makes me unwilling to just publically state my feelings on the matter, in that regard. Since all they care about is proving how they were right along, or some other such bullshit.
 
Gunner said:
There's nothing poetic about war, that old romanticize thing died in vietnam. Take your quotes elsewhere.
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How is that poetic? Poetic would be me quoting Shakespeare about brotherhood or some shit. Take your personal attacks elsewhere, or would you like me to turn my 'poetic' quotes into something your brain can manage? Maybe something along the lines of "Fear isn't anything special, everyone's scared shitless." Actually, no, take your shit elsewhere if all you're going to say is "That's not even funny." and "Take your quotes elsewhere." Don't you have an opinion? Or do you prefer to take quick strikes at people without having to worry about having an opinion someone doesn't agree with?
 
Pesmerga said:
How is that poetic? Poetic would be me quoting Shakespeare about brotherhood or some shit. Take your personal attacks elsewhere, or would you like me to turn my 'poetic' quotes into something your brain can manage? Maybe something along the lines of "Fear isn't anything special, everyone's scared shitless." Actually, no, take your shit elsewhere if all you're going to say is "That's not even funny." and "Take your quotes elsewhere." Don't you have an opinion? Or do you prefer to take quick strikes at people without having to worry about having an opinion someone doesn't agree with?
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You're awfully sensitive, aren't you?
 
Pesmerga said:
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but the presence of fear yet the will the go on."

I see your point CptStern, that you might think many people would see war as glorified. I know that war is probably the scarriest thing you can ever go through, but soldiers are trained not to cover up and start crying. It's a shame that soldiers do, but I wouldn't get the idea that this is what every soldier does under fire. Fear spreads, it's a disease, and you should never show it in the middle of a god damn battle. This is hardly a political topic though. Maybe, like the videos thread in off-topic, there should be a video thread for politics, including war videos (because since MacArthur, war is a political matter)
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QFA, QFT.
 
Pesmerga said:
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but the presence of fear yet the will the go on."

I see your point CptStern, that you might think many people would see war as glorified. I know that war is probably the scarriest thing you can ever go through, but soldiers are trained not to cover up and start crying. It's a shame that soldiers do, but I wouldn't get the idea that this is what every soldier does under fire. Fear spreads, it's a disease, and you should never show it in the middle of a god damn battle. This is hardly a political topic though. Maybe, like the videos thread in off-topic, there should be a video thread for politics, including war videos (because since MacArthur, war is a political matter)
Click to expand...
I don't think Stern's point when making this thread was that all soldiers freak out and start crying when under fire. 'Least I certainly didn't interpret it that way. Don't go off so much on Gunner for calling your quote poetic - it is, in a way, or I get his meaning.

He's right. There's nothing redeeming about war. Shiningly admirable human qualities might come to the surface in it, but that's because of the horrendous situation they are put in.

This isn't even necessarily on topic with the thread, but anyone that can really think about what war is, that we're throwing these hundreds of thousands of people that all have their own lives that are as important to them as your life is to you at each other with guns and letting them kill each other all for some bullshit political reason that can't possibly be important enough to justify the means - anyone who can think that... well, it really bothers me.
 
I choose now to refrain from commenting on the war in Iraq, simply because they end up in a mud slinging match and any valid point that anybody is trying to make simply gets lost in the one-upmanship that is rife throughout them all. Some of the comments made in this thread alone are so offensive and so off the mark they border on ridiculous, hence my comments.

Stern has made a valid point that war is not noble, it is not pleasant and is terrifying to anybody on the ground that gets caught up in it.

To try and counter this point by posting google videos of soldiers actually being killed ( which I have no desire whatsoever to see) and then asserting that because people don’t agree with war then you must agree with insurgents is silly, naive and stupid. Nobody, but nobody agrees with the Insurgents, nobody, not a single person I know agrees with the death of an American soldier. Nobody wants to see more whole sale slaughter, yet people blindly support it all, they try their hardest to make out that anybody who objects is unpatriotic, simply supports the Insurgents or somebody who doesn’t know any better.

I have never supported this war, nor have I ever gloated on the deaths of any innocent person who have been caught up in. I include in “innocent” the soldiers themselves. They are in a foreign land which is occupied illegally fighting an impossible war against people who by their very presence are prepared to lay down their own lives to get them out.

Before anybody starts pointing the finger of accusation, people maybe should figure out exactly where to point this finger. I point my finger squarely at the people who by their failure allowed this all to happen. It was the total failure of political will that started all this. This total failure falls squarely on the shoulders of the every politician involved.

These are my thoughts and these are the reasons I now don’t try to even get across to anybody who supports this war why there is now almost universal rejection of this war.
 
baxter said:
I choose now to refrain from commenting on the war in Iraq, simply because they end up in a mud slinging match and any valid point that anybody is trying to make simply gets lost in the one-upmanship that is rife throughout them all. Some of the comments made in this thread alone are so offensive and so off the mark they border on ridiculous, hence my comments.

Stern has made a valid point that war is not noble, it is not pleasant and is terrifying to anybody on the ground that gets caught up in it.

To try and counter this point by posting google videos of soldiers actually being killed ( which I have no desire whatsoever to see) and then asserting that because people don’t agree with war then you must agree with insurgents is silly, naive and stupid. Nobody, but nobody agrees with the Insurgents, nobody, not a single person I know agrees with the death of an American soldier. Nobody wants to see more whole sale slaughter, yet people blindly support it all, they try their hardest to make out that anybody who objects is unpatriotic, simply supports the Insurgents or somebody who doesn’t know any better.

I have never supported this war, nor have I ever gloated on the deaths of any innocent person who have been caught up in. I include in “innocent” the soldiers themselves. They are in a foreign land which is occupied illegally fighting an impossible war against people who by their very presence are prepared to lay down their own lives to get them out.

Before anybody starts pointing the finger of accusation, people maybe should figure out exactly where to point this finger. I point my finger squarely at the people who by their failure allowed this all to happen. It was the total failure of political will that started all this. This total failure falls squarely on the shoulders of the every politician involved.

These are my thoughts and these are the reasons I now don’t try to even get across to anybody who supports this war why there is now almost universal rejection of this war.
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Monumental.

:cheers:
 
baxter said:
I choose now to refrain from commenting on the war in Iraq, simply because they end up in a mud slinging match and any valid point that anybody is trying to make simply gets lost in the one-upmanship that is rife throughout them all. Some of the comments made in this thread alone are so offensive and so off the mark they border on ridiculous, hence my comments.

Stern has made a valid point that war is not noble, it is not pleasant and is terrifying to anybody on the ground that gets caught up in it.

To try and counter this point by posting google videos of soldiers actually being killed ( which I have no desire whatsoever to see) and then asserting that because people don’t agree with war then you must agree with insurgents is silly, naive and stupid. Nobody, but nobody agrees with the Insurgents, nobody, not a single person I know agrees with the death of an American soldier. Nobody wants to see more whole sale slaughter, yet people blindly support it all, they try their hardest to make out that anybody who objects is unpatriotic, simply supports the Insurgents or somebody who doesn’t know any better.

I have never supported this war, nor have I ever gloated on the deaths of any innocent person who have been caught up in. I include in “innocent” the soldiers themselves. They are in a foreign land which is occupied illegally fighting an impossible war against people who by their very presence are prepared to lay down their own lives to get them out.

Before anybody starts pointing the finger of accusation, people maybe should figure out exactly where to point this finger. I point my finger squarely at the people who by their failure allowed this all to happen. It was the total failure of political will that started all this. This total failure falls squarely on the shoulders of the every politician involved.

These are my thoughts and these are the reasons I now don’t try to even get across to anybody who supports this war why there is now almost universal rejection of this war.
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Well said. I doubt anybody will pay any attention though, the sort of people who assume that anti-war/anti-bush = pro terrorist arent the type to use logic or reason.
 
gick said:
Well said. I doubt anybody will pay any attention though, the sort of people who assume that anti-war/anti-bush = pro terrorist arent the type to use logic or reason.
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That's certainly been established in countless threads on this forum.
 
I think it does affect them ...notice right wing rhetoric around the war in iraq has almost died off completely in the politics forum?
 
CptStern said:
I think it does affect them ...notice right wing rhetoric around the war in iraq has almost died off completely in the politics forum?
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Source?
 
Some_God said:
Not good enough, buddy. Besides if you want to use anecdotal evidence, you can say there has been a lot more left-wing/socialist posts around here.
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How exactly is one supposed to prove that there is a 'lack of right wing rhetoric'?

Actually, I think that there is plenty of Right Wing Rhetoric around - you've just lumped left-wing and socialist in together. Well, two can play at that game, Mr Right-Wing/Nazi!
 
Some_God said:
Not good enough, buddy. Besides if you want to use anecdotal evidence, you can say there has been a lot more left-wing/socialist posts around here.
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that sounds like a challenge ..wanna lay out your reasons for supporting the war so I can shred them to pieces? oh please do
 
so·cial·ism
n.

1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

Seen a lot of this around have we? I daren't try and post any of my thoughts on the global economy here on the basis of how people handle less abstract topics.

I really don't think that right wing or left wing really comes into it. Mainly it's people who support Bush and people who don't. The halflife2.net politics forum is fun, but not really advanced enough to deal properly with partisan politics. Just because people don't agree with the war it doesn't mean that they are liberals. I think this is half of the problem with the American mindset: if you're left your a pacifist weakling, if you're right you're a gun toting slack-jaw. This is wrong wrong wrong.

Meh, feel free to disagree.
 
As an aside:

War is not fun. As many of you probably know, my dad served in the military when he was younger, as a peacekeeper in Northern Ireland.
When he went to serve, he went with one of his close mates - his next-door neighbour.

He got caught up in a firefight with IRA terrorists. He saw his close friend shot in the neck. Just went down, gurgling with blood. My dad tried his best to stop the bleeding (difficult to do when you're under fire), compressing his hands over the large hole in the side of his throat - and his mate died there in his arms.

Soldiers are people. There's nothing glorious about war. Think about it the next time you want to support sending soldiers - fathers, sons, brothers, mothers, daughters, sisters, PEOPLE - to a place where there's a good chance they'll go home in a bodybag.

-Angry Lawyer
 
agree,
Although sometimes, only sometimes.. war is necessary... Horrible as may be, unfortunatly its the fait of mankind.
In some cases armed action to prevent a greater "evil" like Genocide is necessary.
(and no im not refering to Iraq...)
 
CptStern said:
that sounds like a challenge ..wanna lay out your reasons for supporting the war so I can shred them to pieces? oh please do
Click to expand...


Who says I supported the war?
 
Some_God said:
Who says I supported the war?
Click to expand...


then why would you challenge this statement?

CptStern said:
notice right wing rhetoric around the war in iraq has almost died off completely in the politics forum?
Click to expand...

putting yourself forward as an example of how it's not true? or trolling because you have an imaginary axe to grind?
 
baxter said:
I choose now to refrain from commenting on the war in Iraq, simply because they end up in a mud slinging match and any valid point that anybody is trying to make simply gets lost in the one-upmanship that is rife throughout them all. Some of the comments made in this thread alone are so offensive and so off the mark they border on ridiculous, hence my comments.

Stern has made a valid point that war is not noble, it is not pleasant and is terrifying to anybody on the ground that gets caught up in it.

To try and counter this point by posting google videos of soldiers actually being killed ( which I have no desire whatsoever to see) and then asserting that because people don’t agree with war then you must agree with insurgents is silly, naive and stupid. Nobody, but nobody agrees with the Insurgents, nobody, not a single person I know agrees with the death of an American soldier. Nobody wants to see more whole sale slaughter, yet people blindly support it all, they try their hardest to make out that anybody who objects is unpatriotic, simply supports the Insurgents or somebody who doesn’t know any better.

I have never supported this war, nor have I ever gloated on the deaths of any innocent person who have been caught up in. I include in “innocent” the soldiers themselves. They are in a foreign land which is occupied illegally fighting an impossible war against people who by their very presence are prepared to lay down their own lives to get them out.

Before anybody starts pointing the finger of accusation, people maybe should figure out exactly where to point this finger. I point my finger squarely at the people who by their failure allowed this all to happen. It was the total failure of political will that started all this. This total failure falls squarely on the shoulders of the every politician involved.

These are my thoughts and these are the reasons I now don’t try to even get across to anybody who supports this war why there is now almost universal rejection of this war.
Click to expand...

Very well put, I agree wholeheartedly.

Some_god

http://www.energybulletin.net/7707.html

Why the US really invaded iraq.
 
I think this is appropriate for this thread. Side not really known from 9/11. An act of war and terrorism.

This is Kevin Cosgrove's 911 call his family has released it to the public.

WARNING: Do NOT listen if you think it'll negatively effect you. The last couple seconds are his last moments so don't listen if it'll mess you up.

http://www.flurl.com/item/911_phone_call_u_123448/
 
Dam, that was terrible. I've seen some nasty stuff from 9/11 but this one gives me the creeps.
 
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