The West

[Atomic_Piggy]

And you know, they could turn on you later, as they are the only power in the country. Ever wander why every single dictatorship has failed, and failed with untold misery and destruction?

 

[jverne]

And you know, they could turn on you later, as they are the only power in the country. Ever wander why every single dictatorship has failed, and failed with untold misery and destruction?

look, i'm not supporting dictatorship! i just made the point that in theory a dictatorship could be good.


i support a technocratic-meritocracy if i must side with something.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Yeah, technocracies = win.

 

[jverne]

Yeah, technocracies = win.

shut up

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

shut up

NO U!!

 

[No Limit]

didn't you understand?

in the US it's not the people who lead...in other words they're being channeled what to chose...why hasn't no other party been elected in the 200 history of us? it's basically a dictatorship lead by two seemingly different groups of people, democrats and republicans.
it's just that is not a very strict dictatorship and leaves some amount of free speech, just so the citizens can feel in power.

personally i'd give my ass to a dictator if he would give me:

1. the best medical service known to man
2. allow me to pursuit any kind of knowledge i want
3. allow me to believe in what i want
4. allow me to do any kind of activity i want but of course...not criminal activity (murder,...)

the list can go on, but the problems with dictators are that they are messed up in the head. so that is why the are not good.

No, its not a dictatorship, to even compare it to such a thing is ridiculous. By comparing us to a dictatorship you are totally ignorning our constitution and the way seperation of powers works. Sure, there are only 2 parties. I would love to see this change, and I agree with you it probably never will. But those 2 parties consist of hundreds of leaders that share very different opinions on a variety of issues.

 

[jverne]

No, its not a dictatorship, to even compare it to such a thing is ridiculous. By comparing us to a dictatorship you are totally ignorning our constitution and the way seperation of powers works. Sure, there are only 2 parties. I would love to see this change, and I agree with you it probably never will. But those 2 parties consist of hundreds of leaders that share very different opinions on a variety of issues.

ok sorry...it's not a dictatorship of one....but a dictatorship of many... :rolling:

it doesn't matter really...what does, is that plain people don't rule. the elite does...and when they say jump...you jump.

as you can see your constitution isn't that much worth. if they want you out they'll do it despite what some paper says. i think proof isn't needed.

 

[Godron]

With a dictatorship, the leader can do whatever the hell it wants, and we all know how power screws people over in the head. At least with a democracy, the people can stop a leader doing something completely off the wall, like killing his own people.
Of course there is still corruption, but it's harder when they have to conceal it all from the media. The bigger problem is that if you're a really clever leader, you can manipulate the people onto your side. Fact is, nearly everyone is capable of believing utter bullshit and thinking inhuman things... look what Hitler did.
I'm assuming that freedom of media and speech comes with democracy. Freedom of speech does not, AFAIK, equate with excessive political correctness or the British guilt complex. Just because people can say whatever they want, doesn't mean the government has to listen to them. It only becomes a problem if you get a dangerous meme that spreads through the nation, and ends up making the majority believe something stupid.

 

[ComradeBadger]

America is a culturally and economically imperialist hegemony.

It's not superior, but it likes to think it is.

I do however believe that the West does have the superior civilisation.

 

[Nemesis6]

America is a culturally and economically imperialist hegemony.

Location: UK

.......

 

[ComradeBadger]

Your point being?

America was clever enough to build it's empire using economic hegemony rather than a costly political and military one. They learned from initial mistakes springing from the 'white man's burden' ideology.

And don't try and argue that America isn't culturally imperialist - just look how much American cultural forms saturate EVERY medium. From fast food to rubbish sitcoms.

 

[jondy]

.......

Does anyone else find that a little ironic?

 

[Nemesis6]

Your point being?

America was clever enough to build it's empire using economic hegemony rather than a costly political and military one. They learned from initial mistakes springing from the 'white man's burden' ideology.

And don't try and argue that America isn't culturally imperialist - just look how much American cultural forms saturate EVERY medium. From fast food to rubbish sitcoms.

Well, first of all, my point being: A Brit accusing America of imperialism = Utter irony since Britain puts America to shame on the issue of imperialism. Next: Fast food and rubbish sitcoms... So let me get this straight: Americans exporting fast food is a bad thing and very imperialist? I've gotta tell Subway that. And sitcoms... It is very funny that you mention this because I personally do not have access to anything they have to offer that is not from the 80s or 90s through the TV, I have to rely on the internet for that. That is hardly indicative of cultural imperialism; that people are forced to go looking material.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Well, first of all, my point being: A Brit accusing America of imperialism = Utter irony since Britain puts America to shame on the issue of imperialism.

I'm not accusing America, nor am I attempting to amelierate British imperialism in any way shape or form. I'm merely arguing that that is what America does.

Next: Fast food and rubbish sitcoms... So let me get this straight: Americans exporting fast food is a bad thing and very imperialist? I've gotta tell Subway that.

Did I ever say it was a bad thing? Nope. It's still cultural imperialism however.

And sitcoms... It is very funny that you mention this because I personally do not have access to anything they have to offer that is not from the 80s or 90s through the TV, I have to rely on the internet for that. That is hardly indicative of cultural imperialism; that people are forced to go looking material.

Of course! If you personally cannot access them, they aren't there!

:|

Please resist the temptation to make the impersonal personal.
The fact is that it is there, and it is pervasive - you can't argue that 'Americanisation' doesn't happen.

 

[Nemesis6]

Please resist the temptation to make the impersonal personal.
The fact is that it is there, and it is pervasive - you can't argue that 'Americanisation' doesn't happen.

You are absolutely right, but this Americanisation has brought a world of wonders to the West both culturally, technologically, and economically. If you wanna be nationalist about it, fine, but some people do appreciate their contribution to our societies.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I'm not being nationalist, not by a long shot. I'm merely commenting on the imperialistic nature of American culture. Economic hegemony comes from being the largest market economy in the world - and this factor alone has had a hand in countless developments across the world - not least in the creation of 'Third Way' economics and the European Union.

A desire to compete with the US has driven a great deal of change, and driven the decline of national self-interest (i.e. smaller nationstates realising they cannot compete without co-operation) which is, in my mind at least, a very good thing.

What DOES grate on me however is this: America is not special, nor is it any particularly great achievement.
It's simply the largest market, which in turn allows it to utilise a large budget from taxation for research and development, and mobilise economies of scale.
American economic government is simply 'less of it' - as it is a large country with a large budget, it's government is not forced to recognise the limitations on it - they can do as they please and the coffers will overflow, as it were.

Please stop attempting to turn this into 'us & them' - it's a fairly outdated mentality that doesn't further your understanding of my arguement.

 

[hydrometeor]

We are superior culturally because we have better movies, music, and other forms of art.

 

[Pesmerga]

We are superior culturally because we have better movies, music, and other forms of art.

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is art. "Superior" culture is subjective. Thus, no place is universally culturally superior to another.

Is Western Civilization superior?

Define superior. We have a superior economy, a superior standard of living, superior porn, and superior locomotion, among a million other things. That is, "The West" has these things (not talking only about America). That's in the shallowest of terms. You'd have to define superior before anyone can give you a straight answer.

I don't know if I'd rather live in the US or Japan because frankly, I know shit all about Japan other than they have a lot of weird shit over there. Which might be cool.

 

[Irksome]

I didn't define superior becuase I wanted to see how other people defined it. When I asked "Is the West superior?" it was a three part question becuase you also have to define what exactly is superior and what parts are superior.

The question is purposefully vague.

 

[lame-o]

Ok, here it is: it would suck (for us) to move to a country in Asia other than Japan or South Korea. It would suck to move to a country in Europe like Russia. But otherwise, everywhere else is perfectly livable or even MORE livable depending on what your views are. I prefer to live in Europe honestly, because the culture is different and the people are less...consumerized, and well, I can usually have a lot better conversations with people there. And as much as I like going on forums looking for something real to talk about I'd rather meet with someone in person.

There are countries in Europe with statistically higher livability rates than the West.

 

[repiV]

Ok, here it is: it would suck (for us) to move to a country in Asia other than Japan or South Korea. It would suck to move to a country in Europe like Russia. But otherwise, everywhere else is perfectly livable or even MORE livable depending on what your views are. I prefer to live in Europe honestly, because the culture is different and the people are less...consumerized, and well, I can usually have a lot better conversations with people there. And as much as I like going on forums looking for something real to talk about I'd rather meet with someone in person.

There are countries in Europe with statistically higher livability rates than the West.

*scratches head*

The West includes Europe...

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Ok, here it is: it would suck (for us) to move to a country in Asia other than Japan or South Korea. It would suck to move to a country in Europe like Russia. But otherwise, everywhere else is perfectly livable or even MORE livable depending on what your views are. I prefer to live in Europe honestly, because the culture is different and the people are less...consumerized, and well, I can usually have a lot better conversations with people there. And as much as I like going on forums looking for something real to talk about I'd rather meet with someone in person.

There are countries in Europe with statistically higher livability rates than the West.

Ignorance...overdoes...can't cope...*heart gives out*

 

[kirovman]

I'd rather live in the United States than in North America.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Well, first of all, my point being: A Brit accusing America of imperialism = Utter irony since Britain puts America to shame on the issue of imperialism. Next: Fast food and rubbish sitcoms... So let me get this straight: Americans exporting fast food is a bad thing and very imperialist? I've gotta tell Subway that. And sitcoms... It is very funny that you mention this because I personally do not have access to anything they have to offer that is not from the 80s or 90s through the TV, I have to rely on the internet for that. That is hardly indicative of cultural imperialism; that people are forced to go looking material.

Nemesis, good job on the rebuttal.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Except not, since Comrade is engaging with complex political and historical ideas in an informed if summary manner where Nemesis is posting rubbish (again), using the crudest and most diversionary tactics of debate, the least worthy examples and not even properly answering the thrust of B's points.

What an odd question the thread poses.
Ignoring the ill-defition of 'west', and superior to what? -
I guess my short answer would be 'yes, problematically'.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

The west was superior until it bowed down to being a servant. Everyone gets their shot, this is just the Easterner's turn. Revolutions will bring the west back in time.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Except not, since Comrade is engaging with complex political and historical ideas in an informed if summary manner where Nemesis is posting rubbish (again), using the crudest and most diversionary tactics of debate, the least worthy examples and not even properly answering the thrust of B's points.

That's quite an opinion.

The west was superior until it bowed down to being a servant.

I dont think the west has bowed down to anything -- hypothetically, it's the lack of cultural and geo-political understanding that has weighed down its shoulders enough to kneel.

But cryptics aside, if the West wants to maintain its strength, the governments need to spill the honesty beans.

 

[jondy]

That's quite an opinion.

If it is an opinion, add me to it's consensus

 

[Sulkdodds]

That's quite an opinion.

Ho-ho-ho!

Please allow me to justify my previous claim, with examples!

I shall first examine Comrade's argument (short as it is on a subject upon which books have been written):

I'm not being nationalist, not by a long shot. I'm merely commenting on the imperialistic nature of American culture. Economic hegemony comes from being the largest market economy in the world - and this factor alone has had a hand in countless developments across the world - not least in the creation of 'Third Way' economics and the European Union.

A desire to compete with the US has driven a great deal of change, and driven the decline of national self-interest (i.e. smaller nationstates realising they cannot compete without co-operation) which is, in my mind at least, a very good thing.

Here Badger claims that success and prevalence of American market economics - which, I'll note at this point, have often been enforced through violence and subterfuge (witness the interference of the USA in south and central america whenever commies threaten to get in power) - has driven the 'end of history' conception of liberal capitalism that has given birth to both British and American 'third way' economics and the increase of national co-operation, trends observed across the world muchly. It's not substantiated but then it's been written about for yonks. The earlier reference to "the white man's burden" is an argument - I think - that America, instead of literally militarily trying to dominate and 'civilise' the world, as Britain and much of Europe did in its own age of imperialism. It is an argument very much entangled with the dominant political theories of our time.

"Engaging with complex political and historical ideas": check!

"Informed if summary" is also a good way to describe the style of Badger's arguments since it refers to pretty big ideas in simple stock phrases, that is, summarising them. The delivery of the argument is fast and direct while synecdochically referring to the big theories that inform it.

Nice one!


:imu:

Well, first of all, my point being: A Brit accusing America of imperialism = Utter irony since Britain puts America to shame on the issue of imperialism.

Not sure what he means here since Britain's imperialism is largely in the past, although there are still vestiges of it in attitudes towards the Falklands and so on. It's bizarre to claim that one single person in a nation cannot criticise another nation because they are tarred with their own country's brush, especially when Badger wasn't actually denying British imperialism. That's the thing: what country Badger comes from is a bit irrelevant, since he's talking about America and America only. Nemesis diverting attention to his background is somewhat of an ad-hominem attack which distracts us from the important bits of the argument, viz: American imperialism. Nemesis is trying to turn an argument about America into a dualistic us versus them conflict, which is stupid.

"Crudest and most diversionary tactics of debate": check!

Next: Fast food and rubbish sitcoms... So let me get this straight: Americans exporting fast food is a bad thing and very imperialist? I've gotta tell Subway that.

Yeah whatever. You're not saying anything and your debating technique is empty. "I've gotta tell Subway that" sounds like it's supposed to completely and wittily undermine Badger's argument, but...it actually doesn't. So that's another stupid, diversionary tactic. Anyway, this doesn't have anything to do with, nor does it actually engage with, Badger's argument.

"Not even properly answering the thrust of B's points": check!

And sitcoms... It is very funny that you mention this because I personally do not have access to anything they have to offer that is not from the 80s or 90s through the TV, I have to rely on the internet for that. That is hardly indicative of cultural imperialism; that people are forced to go looking material.

That's wonderful, Nemesis. We're quite prepared to take your own personal anecdotal experience, presented alone, as proof that Badger is wrong. Hey, I've got some evidence with equal weight: whenever I go to foreign countries I can always pick up American news channels! Score! Plus, again, this doesn't actually really engage with the main thrust of the argument: that America is culturally and economically imperialist, which is to say its culture and economics (which are incredibly closely bound up; a TV program or MacDonalds are both cultural artefacts and economic commodities) have grown massively due to clever management and are always being shipped abroad so that countries are likely to co-operate with the US.

"The least worthy examples": check!
"Not even properly answering the thrust of B's points": double check!

That last point basically applies to all Nemesis' posts there. Synecdoche again: you can summarise his argument with "misses the point".

Boo! Hiss!


:imu:


In conclusion, I don't even necessarily have to agree with Badger. His argument is just better, and Nemesis has in no way accomplished a "nice rebuttal". One day, maybe, I won't even have to explain this shit. But not today.

Siiiiiiigh.

 

[The Monkey]

Ok, here it is: it would suck (for us) to move to a country in Asia other than Japan or South Korea. It would suck to move to a country in Europe like Russia. But otherwise, everywhere else is perfectly livable or even MORE livable depending on what your views are. I prefer to live in Europe honestly, because the culture is different and the people are less...consumerized, and well, I can usually have a lot better conversations with people there. And as much as I like going on forums looking for something real to talk about I'd rather meet with someone in person.

There are countries in Europe with statistically higher livability rates than the West.

You would rather live in Ethiopia than in Russia?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

It's bizarre to claim that one single person in a nation cannot criticise another nation because they are tarred with their own country's brush, especially when Badger wasn't actually denying British imperialism. That's the thing: what country Badger comes from is a bit irrelevant, since he's talking about America and America only.

Not nessecarly. Suppose ComradeBadger came from the nation of "Good", and Nemisis the nation of "Bad".

Hypothetically, if Nemisis where to criticize ComradeBadger on his residing nations policies it wouldn't be that far off or out of Badgers reach to debate the arguement directly -- if he wanted too. However, to make it a clear example that Nemisis may have overlooked something from his socio-political position regarding Badger's country, HE could say, " ... and you're also from the nation of "Bad". How could you know any better?"

Every country has a wing of people who believe in superiority through Imperialism, Sulkdodds. This doesn't allow someone immunity of return criticsm.

ComradeBadger also confused me aswell -- it's wonderfully written English, so it's not that but this:

"I'm merely commenting on the imperialistic nature of American culture. "

Support for the war in Iraq or a war with the Ayatollahs Iran is declining, thereby ruining the accusation completely.

In learning much of our own countries, "flaws and fallacies" we've become more politically aware. I'll add that we're also more interested in what our government is planning to do internationally and has reawakened the publics activism in showing a distate for our countries operations. The goodness to be found in that is now people are actually watching what our government is doing or planning and weighing it out: Seeing if it's really to our benefit as a country or some corperations stock profits.

Another flaw to the deduction that we're culturally imperialistic, is that our populace is experiencing and continuing to foster an information boom reguarding our governments international involvements and economic conspiracies, which has unveiled from pretty disgusting but nessecary things to understand. The information exposal that we had previously during the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's was and I quote, "for its own public BY it's own public." We didn't wait on the talking heads in Washington to give us the thumbs up and never will have to in the future. We've already proven we're more then capable of doing the research and work better without it's bias. In short -- we don't need the government to think for us.

We can also thank the information exposal during the 60's for assisting in not creating a culture of imperialistic Americans, but in reverse, a culture of people united in the belief that diplomacy and peace achieves far more then war ever can. I'm sorry, but I just don't read that as Imperialist. I just haven't seen or read that type of backlash from exposing our countries mistakes, causing imperialism to grow, no sir it's made the creation of a prison state even more difficult and delayed.

Which is another point I'd like to make against the arguement our culture is imperialistic; Americans have become more politically aware and involved, and its always been in our spirit to directly question the authority of our government. More written into us is our ability to question then it is to be imperialistic, citing the beginnings of our country as a beacon to resist that.

It was difficult enough five years ago to convince other people that the "Red Scare", had caused in large part an occult of Christian Political thinkers to arrive in power that would later try to rape Central and Southern America. But, through several unfortunate events on behalf of Washingtons piss poor logic and the information exposals reguarding our seats of power, we can now openly reach an agreement on our countries fallacies while not having to worry about rebutting each other with the age old, "Oh well, you're not patriotic enough" bullshit.

So, we're not a culture of imperialists or a people that believe we can constantly exercise that form of international power, and never have been really, excluding administrations that don't even allow a war vote to the American people itself. We'll seed that corruption out eventually.

I agreed with Nemisis in large part because I know the people here aren't imperialistic but are as politically involved and aware as anybody else accross the globe. The precept that we are lazy, fat, and culturally imperialist, seems to go on by without further being confronted, and that belief stems from jealous or misunderstanding; further by the fact we've experienced extremes in Industrial and Economic success. Further reinforced however, by our unfortunate pasts which I believe I made clear, was not us but "them" -- those who are in power.

Nemisis, I believe, addressed the issue as he should have, questioning the authority that ComradeBadger had in accusing 250 or so million people of being imperialistic when his own country controlled at one point, a 3rd of the world whether economically or militarily.

Yeah whatever. You're not saying anything and your debating technique is empty. "I've gotta tell Subway that" sounds like it's supposed to completely and wittily undermine Badger's argument, but...it actually doesn't.

We all can agree that America's economic successes have very little to do with its Imperialism -- if Iraq is a prime example, then come gas prices have accelerated and the oil cost per barrel has increased by as much as 10 dollars?

Also, you missed this part Sulkdodds, where ComradeBadger got Nemisis point and addressed it properly:

Did I ever say it was a bad thing? (Fast Food Chains, American Products etc.) Nope. It's still cultural imperialism however.

It's a little naive to assume America's economic successes and allowance of its fast food chains to establish themselves on foreign soil as cultural imperialism -- let's correct his thoughts and be more direct. That would be economic imperialism -- the culture about it is that its merely a favorite amungst Americans (not this one in particular).

It is, a companys right to establish a business wherever the seek fit, and if a country agrees to let them develope a fast food chain on they're own soil, it's not Imperialism because Imperialism doesn't consent, it takes.

So, ComradeBadger has failed to rationalize corperate interest as Imperialism -- merely, he's just making into an 'us versus them' semantic, just like you accused Nemisis of doing, by charging a fast food chains interest in establishing, "Taco Hells" all accross Berlin not in the idea of, "Hey, some people want our take on fast food" but "Yes, we must devour freedom everywhere with Chalupas."

No, it's not cultural imperialism -- especially when you consider how popular Sushi bars have become in America, and that my friend, is Japanese culture. That kind of thought just doesn't deliver enough evidence to quantify that what its saying, is even really "real".

In conclusion, I don't even necessarily have to agree with Badger. His argument is just better, and Nemesis has in no way accomplished a "nice rebuttal".

Again, in you're own opinion.