There are no interesting choices to make in this game.

C

Crash Halmit

Guest
A lot of the disappointments have already been out there but there are a few cons that are not discussed yet.

There are no interesting choices to make in this game.
The pace of the game.
Feel for the characters.

Let's start with that I loved HL1 but that FPS pur sang (like Doom3) are not my thing. I like to use my strategic and tactical mind.

So I spend a lot of time playing Hidden and Dangerous and Operation Flashpoint (beautiful AI by the way) and love it when a game gives me choices like Deus Ex 1.

I think it was Peter Molineux who said that a good game should give you interesting choices. Its in making these choices that a game becomes part of your self, because these are YOUR choices.

A choice in a game is a difficult thing. Almost always the game designer must anticipate the choice because the game should react to the choice. But this can't be done to obvious. The example for instance of 3 combines on a bridge: you can kill them one by one or you can blow up the bridge. Some choice.
This kind of choice WILL NOT suck you in the game.
But when you run past a sentry gun into a hall full of headcrabs you can either shoot them or lure them after you back past the sentry gun. I liked that choice even though Valve gave it to me.
There was time in HL1 to set up traps and you had the right ammunition to do it with (claymore's). The mines in HL2 are a joke, not very interesting.

So you could choose how to play, be a marine or be a sneaky bastard. A game like Deus Ex 1 was really centered about these decisions, had a nice pace and a interesting story en really sucked you in.

The pace:
Now to set up traps and to think you need time. HL1 gave me this time, and I loved it for that. But HL2 is just pushing me forward in a frantic way. So no interesting choices, no self involvement, just quick reaction time and an endless flow of enemies. (I really hate spawning, makes a game that much sooner repetitive).

The feel for the NPC’s:
I started replaying HL1 immediately after I finished HL2 to see if it would still grab me. And it did!!
The first time I saw a scientist fighting of a headcrab I wanted to rush in his office and save him. I couldn't get there and he was lost. When a scientist was lifted by a Barnacle I was there in time. Now the polygon count in those scenes were very low compared to all the beautiful rendered models in HL2 but that didn't matter to me, my imagination made up the details. Strangely there was no one to rescue in HL2.
So it isn’t the polygons for me that create involvement, I can make those up in my mind. I need good story elements, interesting choices and time to set up a situation which is of my doing.

And with good story elements I don't mean newspaper clippings, but things which evoke motivation in the player to go to the next part, so you are pulled to a desirable goal in stead of pushed from behind by a bunch of crazy scientist and moaning resistant fighters. Go Freeman, go, you must hurry. Ja ja.


Now, the single most important reason why I bought this game was that Valve promised that the enemies had superior AI. I was envisioning all kinds of interesting choices in battle. And the superior models should have given me more feel for them, al least that was the reason to put them in the game in the first place.

Now the AI is presumably “removed”, just like al the interesting locations and weapons, or it was scripted from the first. The models are there but without interesting choices there just eye candy and the pace is so frigging fast there’s no time to get a feel for anything!!

So in my opinion (not a fact ;-), as a game, it failed miserably



On a side note
According to me Steam is a commercial thing and has really not much to do with piracy (hackers won’t be stopped, I know this and Valve knows this). What is does, it binds you to Valve. You can’t easily share or sell the game. Steam could even monitor your gaming habits, at what level you stopped playing, how long you played etc. Who knows?
I don’t particularly like it when a game start’s patching itself. I’ve got no stutters now and don’t see the benefit of patching right now. Also a choice I like to have in my own hands.
So I always play Off Line.
 
The physics in HL2 mean that there are literally hundreds of ways to kill any given enemy. I don't know how many more choices you want.
 
I agree with everything you've said. And I thought DX1 was a terrific game, I expected everyone to be stealing ideas from it ... but they never really did.

In defense of the game, I'd say it wasn't really intended to be that high on the AI front, it was always going to be a story given to you. There was a lot of talk about how wonderful the AI was going to be, but that was always marketing nonsense.

Edit: Ok wildhound, let's take the 'pick up that can' guy. Can you tell me those hundred ways to kill him with the physics? I think you may be exaggerating :)
 
Wildhound said:
The physics in HL2 mean that there are literally hundreds of ways to kill any given enemy. I don't know how many more choices you want.

What you mean like, kill grunt with barrel, kill grunt with crate, kill grunt with tyre, kill grunt with radiator... etc.. etc...

That gets boring real fast dont you think?
 
Crash Halmit said:
A lot of the disappointments have already been out there but there are a few cons that are not discussed yet.

There are no interesting choices to make in this game.
The pace of the game.
Feel for the characters.

Let's start with that I loved HL1

This is HL2. It was always going to follow along the same style of gameplay.



On a side note
According to me Steam is a commercial thing and has really not much to do with piracy (hackers won’t be stopped, I know this and Valve knows this).
HL2 wasn't leaked between going Gold and hitting retail, due to Steam. That's a first.

What is does, it binds you to Valve. You can’t easily share or sell the game.
You're not supposed to share the game. Selling it is just as possible as it used to be.

Steam could even monitor your gaming habits, at what level you stopped playing, how long you played etc. Who knows?
So?

I don’t particularly like it when a game start’s patching itself. I’ve got no stutters now and don’t see the benefit of patching right now. Also a choice I like to have in my own hands.
So I always play Off Line.
Turn off automatic updating for HL2. Easy, really.
 
I can see what you mean about choice,although the grav gun really opened the options for killing people with planks of wood, chairs etc, and imho it is still the greatest title in the history of computer gaming.
 
NB. said:
What you mean like, kill grunt with barrel, kill grunt with crate, kill grunt with tyre, kill grunt with radiator... etc.. etc...

That gets boring real fast dont you think?

Well that's a problem with your imagination rather than the options available to you. Personally I never stopped coming up with new and interesting ways to do things.

Oddly enough that's a problem Valve predicted well over a year ago. They said it would be a lot more difficult for experienced gamers to get used to the idea of having such options. Where new gamers aren't used to having limits placed on them, experienced gamers expect not to be able to do certain things.

Thus many people either didn't use the physics to their advantage, or used it only to fling things at combine.

I don't care, I had my fun. It just seems a bit silly to make a thread about not having options when the options are there, you're just not using them.
 
I think dx and dx:iw are great games in the way that they give you some real (as well as some imagined) choices. However, expecting this from other games is just brutal. The effort involved into making things like this work is enormous, and the payoff is very little. Deus Ex was voted game of the year by several renowed magazines, but it was no huge financial success. The sorry truth is that the average gamer doesn't care about things like that and would much rather have run and gun, and that is what most developers give us.

Personally I dream of the same things you seem to want in games, but I realize it is not going to happen. True interactivity complicates the development of a game tenfold and actually reduces the potential payoff. It could work in a game as huge as hl2, but it would not be worth is. This is sad, but I don't think blaming valve for it is fair.

Lastly, while I agree that there should have been a lot more choices, hl2 has a very good physics engine which actually gives us choices that are not intended by the developers.

Example: (slight spoilers to those who have not yet played past the 4 first levels of the game)

In the water hazard you come to an enclosed area with a couple of combine vehicle and some combines. There is a jump that will allow you into a tube that pressumably is the continuation of the path, but the jump is blocked from you by a wall of rubble etc. I'm usually impatient (unless playing deus ex) so instead of searching the area for a way to the ramp I just rammed my boat into a small opening, and eventually I managed to squeeze through. Then I noticed that there was actually a path you could take by foot under the docks that would lead you to a container with some explosives in it, and shooting them would blow out one side of the container so you could drive the boat through and have access to the jump. "Well, cool, ", I thought, "there are actually two ways to solve this problem. Then later a friend of mine mentioned this exact area in the game. He actually thought the point of the area was that you needed the combine vehicles to shoot a rocket after you and then lure the rocket to hit the container with the openable door. It worked for him, so it turned out there were three ways to solve that problem. Having a functional damage and physics system like this really opens up possibilities that I think most people just don't realize.

.bog.
 
Wildhound said:
Well that's a problem with your imagination rather than the options available to you. Personally I never stopped coming up with new and interesting ways to do things.
Ok. Could you list these new and interesting ways so we can all benefit? Maybe we're just missing a big part of the game here.
 
boglito said:
Example: (slight spoilers to those who have not yet played past the 4 first levels of the game)

In the water hazard you come to an enclosed area with a couple of combine vehicle and some combines. There is a jump that will allow you into a tube that pressumably is the continuation of the path, but the jump is blocked from you by a wall of rubble etc. I'm usually impatient (unless playing deus ex) so instead of searching the area for a way to the ramp I just rammed my boat into a small opening, and eventually I managed to squeeze through. Then I noticed that there was actually a path you could take by foot under the docks that would lead you to a container with some explosives in it, and shooting them would blow out one side of the container so you could drive the boat through and have access to the jump. "Well, cool, ", I thought, "there are actually two ways to solve this problem. Then later a friend of mine mentioned this exact area in the game. He actually thought the point of the area was that you needed the combine vehicles to shoot a rocket after you and then lure the rocket to hit the container with the openable door. It worked for him, so it turned out there were three ways to solve that problem. Having a functional damage and physics system like this really opens up possibilities that I think most people just don't realize.

.bog.

Heh, the first time i played through that bit i just rammed through the small hole too :p

..then when i missed the jump and went a bit further back in the tunnel to gain more speed i saw the explosive barrels and realised it was easier to just go through that big opening at the end :E
 
I agree with the first post. There was no real inspiration to creativity. With all the physics possibilities, where was the choice to affect a situation? Pull a lever and drop a car? wow. I can't think of one puzzle that you needed the real world physics effect to solve. Perhaps there is one, but it doesn't stand out in my mind to recall it here. The game looks great. It is a failure, as it only looks great. For some it doesn't even look so good due to stutter. Valve you still owe us the game you promised, and I'm not paying anymore money for it!
 
Sickmind said:
I can't think of one puzzle that you needed the real world physics effect to solve.

You can't have played the game then, surely!?
 
yeah but about them choices, I rememebr someone here saying than Gabe said that there were a couple of sides and that one was wrong and the other terribly wrong, now I always imagined there would be like more resistence groups and that you could chose to join one or something like that, like the resistance fighters of kleiner seemed good but their teleporter technologie would unleach more evil and destroy the earth, but they just didn't know it, and that breen had some good ideas but also some bad, and that kinda thing Or was he just talking about the breen side, the resistance, the G-man.
Could someone please explain that?
 
Im sitting on a intel 2.0 ghz 512 RAM and a Radeon 9800 pro. No stuttering here at all...And i can play at medium settings with 4x AA and AS.6x with a bit of stutter. I guess new hardware isnt always greatest eh?

As for hl2 if you honestly can only think of flinging thigns at enemies...I feel really sorry for your lack fo creativity..Im not sure if anyone mentioned this before but when you are driving on coast...And it's like right before a tunnel. There is a huge metal gate which you have to unlock using levers and stuff. Well Instead of unlocking I found a hole in gate...Rammed my car in with a manipulator, grabbed a piece of plank, put it under me, hit it with manipulator and flew over. Then i continued driving never even taking the time to find the switches! =D
 
Pi Mu Rho said:
This is HL2. HL2 wasn't leaked between going Gold and hitting retail, due to Steam. That's a first.

Thats not a first, there have been many games that were never leaked before retail (pretty much any game that uses Starforce protection for instance). Scrapland is a current example, its hit retail already but there are no illegal releases of it yet.
 
CookieCuttah said:
There is a huge metal gate which you have to unlock using levers and stuff. Well Instead of unlocking I found a hole in gate...Rammed my car in with a manipulator, grabbed a piece of plank, put it under me, hit it with manipulator and flew over. Then i continued driving never even taking the time to find the switches! =D

I did something like that at the other combine roadblock, the one with the blue shield. I built and elabourate ramp and went over that way instead of just disconnecting the power. It took about 10 minutes, but it was a lot of fun.

You can also use random objects you find to build quite sturdy forts and hold off a large amount of enemies. It's very satisfying.

The sheer amount of stuff like that I did throughout the game is mind boggling. I tried to use my guns as rarely as possible.

Also, throwing matresses at combine is hilarious. Pointless, but hilarious.
 
NB. said:
Thats not a first, there have been many games that were never leaked before retail (pretty much any game that uses Starforce protection for instance). Scrapland is a current example, its hit retail already but there are no illegal releases of it yet.

It's a first for a game of HL2's calibre.
 
Pi Mu Rho said:
It's a first for a game of HL2's calibre.
Exactly, I can't find a warez version of big rigs over the road racing either, boy they must be great at security! :p
 
NB. said:
Thats not a first, there have been many games that were never leaked before retail (pretty much any game that uses Starforce protection for instance). Scrapland is a current example, its hit retail already but there are no illegal releases of it yet.

Yes. People love Starforce too, I mean, it's not hated or anything because it installs crap on your PC and in once instance even removes CD emulation tools. What a great example.

As to the topic starter's criticism, you've been fooling yourself if you thought it would completely step away from the HL formula, it never intended to do that, it won't give you some non-linear game where you have to make choices and stuff, and you're in for a shock if you somehow think HL3 is going to be this way: it's not going to be.

The criticism is getting ridiculous, honestly. 'OMG Microsoft Train Simulator doesn't allow me to fly planes, teh suck!' Yeah, it sorta never intended to do that. Don't like this style of game? Cool, but stop whining about it.
 
PvtRyan said:
Yes. People love Starforce too, I mean, it's not hated or anything because it installs crap on your PC and in once instance even removes CD emulation tools. What a great example.
That's a nice criticism but nothing to do with the guys point.

As to the topic starter's criticism, you've been fooling yourself if you thought it would completely step away from the HL formula, it never intended to do that, it won't give you some non-linear game where you have to make choices and stuff, and you're in for a shock if you somehow think HL3 is going to be this way: it's not going to be.
Well some of the pre-launch PR implied that it would be less linear than it was, so I can understand the frustration. Also, we don't know how linear 'HL3' is going to be - I'd hope less so. Hl2 already feels sort of dated when others are heading towards better AI and less scripting (Stalker, for example).
 
koopa said:
That's a nice criticism but nothing to do with the guys point.

It does, he points at Starforce that it can prevent pre-release leaks, but people hate Starforce as much as some do Steam. Not a solution.

Well some of the pre-launch PR implied that it would be less linear than it was, so I can understand the frustration. Also, we don't know how linear 'HL3' is going to be - I'd hope less so. Hl2 already feels sort of dated when others are heading towards better AI and less scripting (Stalker, for example).

Can't remember any PR that said it wouldn't be linear. And why do people tend to trip over HL2's linearity so much when it isn't even that linear in the world of linear shooters? At least the physics allow you to solve situations differently each time, while other linear shooters (Doom 3) just allow you to gun everyone down. Most are acting like it was a on-a-rail shooter like Time Crisis or something.

And you're implying non-linearity is by definition better than linearity. Non-linearity has a great many number of flaws, mainly that the developer can't direct you properly. There will always be linear games, it's not a drawback of hardware or anything that developers needed to stick to linear games before. I really hope that Valve doesn't fall for the whole GTA-ish non-linearity with HL3, but just stick to the old formula.
 
You have misunderstood me, Pi Mu Rho said that HL2 was the first game that wasnt leaked before it hit retail, all i said was no its not. I wasnt pointing to anything, and i dont care what anyone thinks about steam or starforce, i was just correcting his comment.
 
PvtRyan said:
It does, he points at Starforce that it can prevent pre-release leaks, but people hate Starforce as much as some do Steam. Not a solution.
Ok, I see what you mean. But he was saying that HL2 isn't the first (major) game not to be leaked, which is true.

Can't remember any PR that said it wouldn't be linear. And why do people tend to trip over HL2's linearity so much when it isn't even that linear in the world of linear shooters?
It's not that the PR said it wouldn't be linear, but it was implied that there was AI at work when really it was scripted. I don't want to get into that whole scripting argument again, but if somebody was hoping for different solutions to scenarios I'd say that's not really what HL2 is about. I can see how people would have expected more variety. I was surprised by just how 'linear' HL2 is. I shouldn't have been, but I was.

At least the physics allow you to solve situations differently each time, while other linear shooters (Doom 3) just allow you to gun everyone down. Most are acting like it was a on-a-rail shooter like Time Crisis or something.
I don't agree there's really that much variability. Yeah, in some places you can shortcut bits, but it's pretty much on rails.

I'd agree HL2 is more linear than D3, but then I hated Doom 3. Just not my type of thing at all. Let's not argue over that, Doom 3 fans.

And you're implying non-linearity is by definition better than linearity. Non-linearity has a great many number of flaws, mainly that the developer can't direct you properly.
I'm not implying it. I'm saying it outright!

Video games are an interactive medium. I can't see why you say 'fall for the whole GTA-ish' thing - I reckon GTA is fantastic. Tastes differ I guess :)
 
Back
Top