This gets worse everyday.

[DarkStar]

If you don't know who Seymore Hersh is, he's an amazing investigative reporter for the New Yorker. Looks like he got his hands on some more photos from Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. The quote below is from the Hersh's latest article that can be found here: http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2

--------------------------------------------------
One of the new photographs shows a young soldier, wearing a dark jacket over his uniform and smiling into the camera, in the corridor of the jail. In the background are two Army dog handlers, in full camouflage combat gear, restraining two German shepherds. The dogs are barking at a man who is partly obscured from the camera’s view by the smiling soldier. Another image shows that the man, an Iraqi prisoner, is naked. His hands are clasped behind his neck and he is leaning against the door to a cell, contorted with terror, as the dogs bark a few feet away.

Other photographs show the dogs straining at their leashes and snarling at the prisoner. In another, taken a few minutes later, the Iraqi is lying on the ground, writhing in pain, with a soldier sitting on top of him, knee pressed to his back. Blood is streaming from the inmate’s leg. Another photograph is a closeup of the naked prisoner, from his waist to his ankles, lying on the floor. On his right thigh is what appears to be a bite or a deep scratch. There is another, larger wound on his left leg, covered in blood.
--------------------------------------------------

Not only is this news a little more disturbing in my opinion because it involves such horrific violence (instead of just humiliation) these photos come from a completely SEPERATE MP unit than the earlier photos. This is obviously more widespread than anyone thought. These people should be tried for war crimes and if news keeps trickling out like this Rumsfield should resign.

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

WTF, you know what? People are going crazy over a 6 month old deal, THEY ARE JAILED RIGHT NOW AND ARE GETTING COURT MARTIALED(or however you spell it). This isn't right or anything, but what 7 iraq's compared to 3000 americans in 9/11....And people bitch about that??? I mean c'mon its wrong and all, but hell we have videos of our own soldiers getting dragged on the street by cars and some hung.....Its getting really stupid for them to keep talking about it, seriously. Rumsfield is fine, he is doing what is needed to be done, soon.

 

[Varsity]

A lot of people are going to die because of these photos.

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

WTF, you know what? People are going crazy over a 6 month old deal, THEY ARE JAILED RIGHT NOW AND ARE GETTING COURT MARTIALED(or however you spell it). This isn't right or anything, but what 7 iraq's compared to 3000 americans in 9/11....And people bitch about that??? I mean c'mon its wrong and all, but hell we have videos of our own soldiers getting dragged on the street by cars and some hung.....Its getting really stupid for them to keep talking about it, seriously. Rumsfield is fine, he is doing what is needed to be done, soon.

May I ask you two questions?(Thats number one)

How would you react if it was Iraqi soldiers tortureing and humiliating American Soldiers or Civilians?You would probly be telling George W. to fuel up the Minute Men II and get ready for house to house searchs till they were found.And WTF did they have to do with 9/11.They were in Saddams Army.So what.They dont deserve to be treated like that.

 

[Neutrino]

I would like to know the exact context of those photos. I do think that mistreatment of the prisoners is horrible and should be punished, but I just wonder about this latest description you give. It could be that the prisoner tried to get away or harm a soldier and was thus handled roughly and subdued. I'm not saying that is what happened, I'm just saying I'd like the full context of the photo before making any assumptions as to it's exact nature.

Oh and Disturbed, you see the problem is this little thing known as international law. You see when we break it it tends to piss of the entire rest of the world, which we do not want to do. And it is there for a good reason. Such mistreatment while wrong in itself, also gives others an excuse to do the same to our soldiers which I'm sure you would not like to see. Also, 9/11 has nothing to do with this. It is an issue of international law violation.

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

I would like to know the exact context of those photos. I do think that mistreatment of the prisoners is horrible and should be punished, but I just wonder about this latest description you give. It could be that the prisoner tried to get away or harm a soldier and was thus handled roughly and subdued. I'm not saying that is what happened, I'm just saying I'd like the full context of the photo before making any assumptions as to it's exact nature.

I know what ya mean however it still seems very heavy handed to have 2 German Shepards,Their Handlers,The Soldier in the Black Jumper and the Camera man for a Naked prisoner who looks to be at the point of shiting himself.
The one on the left of the pic looks to be telling him to get on the ground so maybe it was a search and would explain the later part with the prisoner on the ground however do they really need 2 attack dogs for that?

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

Of course no context of the photo's will ever be known, since the media only wants you to hear the horrible part....

 

[gh0st]

why the hell should rumsfeld resign. its not like he's ordering our troops to 'torture' (which it isnt) iraqi's.

 

[Direwolf]

I'm getting interested to see what comes out at the trials, and while someone is certainly a fault here its become awful hard to figure out just who that is.
For the record (not that it changes anything), the Iraqis have released photos of American people in captivity, and a while back released those photos of prisoners they murdered.

 

[Neutrino]

I know what ya mean however it still seems very heavy handed to have 2 German Shepards,Their Handlers,The Soldier in the Black Jumper and the Camera man for a Naked prisoner who looks to be at the point of shiting himself.
The one on the left of the pic looks to be telling him to get on the ground so maybe it was a search and would explain the later part with the prisoner on the ground however do they really need 2 attack dogs for that?

Hmm, true. But we just really don't know the context. What if that prisoner had injured a soldier earlier in an escape attempt and their not taking any chances with him? Not saying that's what happened, but it's possible. And it might be overkill but if you look at it from a soldier point of view it might not seem that way. Think about police. If a criminal harms one of their own they tend to employ a lot of force to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Now it may also be a case of pure abuse, but It just seems a bit suspicious to me so I'm not going to make a judgement one way or the other until there's further info on the situation, if there ever is.

 

[Pitbul]

May I ask you two questions?(Thats number one)

How would you react if it was Iraqi soldiers tortureing and humiliating American Soldiers or Civilians?

they did you moron, they got wounded US soldiers beat them nearly to death then tied them to the back of there cars and dragged there bodies around the city while they were burning. wow that sounds a sh!t load better then intimidating an iraqi "SOLDIER" with 2 dogs. but its not like we are making an effort to find out every person that was responsible for parading our soliders bodies around the city. but we are finding every US soldier whose responsible for mistreatment (i refuse to call this torture, this if far from torture i have heard stories from WWII vets and Vietnam Vets THOSe stories are very bad) of iraqi soldiers. and they will meet hand in foot with the Geneva Convention and either be imprisoned or at least court martialed and fined.

 

[Direwolf]

In all fairness, this is more of a psycological problem more than a moral one. No matter what those pictures will make the coalition look bad.

 

[AudioRage]

So insurgent rebels break the Geneva Convention so that means its alright for the united states military to do so?

No.

 

[DarkStar]

I would like to know the exact context of those photos. I do think that mistreatment of the prisoners is horrible and should be punished, but I just wonder about this latest description you give. It could be that the prisoner tried to get away or harm a soldier and was thus handled roughly and subdued. I'm not saying that is what happened, I'm just saying I'd like the full context of the photo before making any assumptions as to it's exact nature.

The fact that he is already completely subdued in the picture shown, but in later photographs is seen getting attacked by the dogs and suffering massive injuries is why I believe this amounts to torture. The later photos in the series were probably too graphic to print.

Remember, the dogs attacked after this first photo was taken. This is why I think this is a pretty clear cut case of torture. The naked man standing with his arms over his head, surrounded by heavily-armed troops and attack dogs isn't going anywhere or trying to harm anyone in his current situation -- no matter what the context is.

Also, I've read that many Shiite muslims view dogs as profoundly unclean animals. Even if a drop of saliva from a dog touches their clothing, they will bathe and change their clothes. I'm not sure about Sunnis though. This further complicates the ethical implications of the presence of the attack dogs.

 

[h00dlum]

this will piss Osama off real bad..and probably reqruit even more crazy terrorists..but you cant blame the whole american army for what some trailerpark trash bitch and her boyfriend did...

 

[DarkStar]

this will piss Osama off real bad..and probably reqruit even more crazy terrorists..but you cant blame the whole american army for what some trailerpark trash bitch and her boyfriend did...

You guys aren't reading my first post. These photos come from a seperate MP unit than the first set. All the information that is coming out is pointing more and more to this being much less isolated than previously believed.

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

they did you moron, they got wounded US soldiers beat them nearly to death then tied them to the back of there cars and dragged there bodies around the city while they were burning. wow that sounds a sh!t load better then intimidating an iraqi "SOLDIER" with 2 dogs. but its not like we are making an effort to find out every person that was responsible for parading our soliders bodies around the city. but we are finding every US soldier whose responsible for mistreatment (i refuse to call this torture, this if far from torture i have heard stories from WWII vets and Vietnam Vets THOSe stories are very bad) of iraqi soldiers. and they will meet hand in foot with the Geneva Convention and either be imprisoned or at least court martialed and fined.

I know they did and that is how you reacted.i was making the point that you cannot simple say that the Iraqi's shouldnt be pissed at this.They have every right to want the people who did this brought to justice,as Americans have the same right for the Iraqi's who captured and killed the American soldier.Its just when Justice is taken too far(As Disturbed mentioned Soldiers being "hung") that I have problums with.And these abuse cases are Justice too far especially since these guys may not have had anything to do with the cases of torture of American soldiers(Can someone get me a link to these as I cant remember anyone but the Jessica Lynch Convoy)

 

[Fender357]

Why the hell does everyone link Iraq and 9 11 together? They have NOTHING to do with each other. And some people say, Oh, Sadam was working with Osama.......well you know who we should still be going after? Osama!!!

 

[Neutrino]

they did you moron, they got wounded US soldiers beat them nearly to death then tied them to the back of there cars and dragged there bodies around the city while they were burning. wow that sounds a sh!t load better then intimidating an iraqi "SOLDIER" with 2 dogs. but its not like we are making an effort to find out every person that was responsible for parading our soliders bodies around the city. but we are finding every US soldier whose responsible for mistreatment (i refuse to call this torture, this if far from torture i have heard stories from WWII vets and Vietnam Vets THOSe stories are very bad) of iraqi soldiers. and they will meet hand in foot with the Geneva Convention and either be imprisoned or at least court martialed and fined.

About the "mistreatment/torture" aspect, you really need to take into consideration that this is a completely different culture. Some of the early photographs of prisoners stripped naked and put in seeming homosexual situations is practically psychological torture for these people. Both their cultural and religious views are completely different than ours. So perhaps it's not exactly torture, but just realize that it looks much worse to the Iraqi's than it may at first seem to us. Just something to think about.

Perhaps think of it like this. What if you saw an american soldier with a US flag stuffed in their mouth and forced to hold a sign saying "I love terrorists and what they did on 9/11". That's not a great example, but what I'm getting at is that image would produce strong feeling in the US culture so that situation actually seems worse than it would from an objective viewpoint. So you can't really view the mistreatment of the Iraqi prisoners objectively, but instead need to see it how their own culture sees it to really understand any reaction they might have to it.

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

this will piss Osama off real bad...and probably reqruit even more crazy terrorists

I dont see how it would as its just evidence for him to use and say "Look I was right all along"Though you are right about it providing more Terrorists for him to use though you have to wonder if he is still in charge or if his protege is running things now while he hides in some cave.

 

[DarkStar]

I think this picture captures the tragedy and hopelessness of the Iraq situation pretty well. Why do they have to use PLASTIC bags?

 

[DarkStar]

Oh, and here's a doozy. This is Rumsfield shaking his good buddy Saddam's hand in the 1980s when we supported him in his war with Iran.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

I think all these scandles in America AND Britain just tell us one thing. It does not matter where people come from. They still have the capacity to be dumb annimals with no sence and no respect for anything.

I also really really wish people would stop thinking that Iraq was full of terorists that coused 9-11 as well. Kinda gets on my nerves.

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

Oh, and here's a doozy. This is Rumsfield shaking his good buddy Saddam's hand in the 1980s when we supported him in his war with Iran.

Thats an interesting picture. :thumbs:

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

This kind of thing really makes me want to puke, mankind at it's lowest certainly.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

Why the hell does everyone link Iraq and 9 11 together? They have NOTHING to do with each other. And some people say, Oh, Sadam was working with Osama.......well you know who we should still be going after? Osama!!!

Thats exactly why the Bush Administration scares me, they preyed on the vulerability of the countries panic state. Want to read some scary stuff, read the patriot act.

so long freedom, missed ya. Whats worse, the Patriot act II is in the works... scary buisness

* Allows law enforcement to obtain records of internet activity, medical, business, library, and educational institution records of individual citizens.
* Gives new and broader definitions of terrorism that could include protesters and organizations that voice disagreement with the policies of American leadership.



The Patriot Act 2, currently being considered by the Justice Department, may expand the act to:



· Allow indefinite detention of individuals, including American citizens, without filing charges or disclosure of names..

· Repeal current limits on police for spying on religious and political organizations..

· Allow government to obtain credit records without a warrant

· Allow for loss of citizenship for individuals engaged in civil disobedience.

URL: http://www2.uiuc.edu/ro/LWV/patriotlwv.htm

sorry to go off topic, but I had to vent my fear through something

 

[Mr.Reak]

The point in all of this, is that US Army always was a “good army”. I mean, if you were captured by Russians during WW2, you are ****ing dead, that’s for sure. Thing is, when you are leading country, you should look like one. These bunch of idiots just made it worth for all Americans in general, because you know the rest of the world, they will generalize.

Oh, terrorists who kill captured US soldiers, drugging civilians, etc. are barbarians, US army is not.

 

[not28]

they did you moron, they got wounded US soldiers beat them nearly to death then tied them to the back of there cars and dragged there bodies around the city while they were burning.

Wait, I thought they were beaten to death, and then the bodies were burned/mutilated postmortem. You described it the other way around, which seems a million times worse.

Anyways, my take on it is, America is supposed to be Righteous, Great, Moral, and we all possess a high level of ethical values. That includes our army, which is supposed to be the greatest army in the world. We're have to convey an image of being better, more tolerant, humanitarian, and blah blah f_ckin' blah. That image is ruined when we see these photographs of prisoner abuse. Sure, those Iraqi scumbags deserve to die for something or other (please note the heavy use of sarcasm), but the prisoner abuse scandal pretty much lowers a certain portion of our Great American Army down to the level of a common terrorist. Even if the prisoners did deserve torture, we Americans like to preach justice and not vengeance. I'm sure even a Gold Ole Boy can understand that.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I agree. We agreed to the Geneva Convention, and should keep our word to it. Now, it's not our fault these bastards did this, but something definitely needs to be done about the National Guard. Whether it be classes on the Geneva Covention, or whatever. Things liek this do not need to happen. I don't care whether or not those prisoners deserved it, it sohuld not have happened. Those men did not have the authority, those prisoners were not sentenced to that punishment, and those soldiers have made us look bad. Even worse is the fact of the backlash it will have on progress in the region.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

Every war seems to come with things like this, it's horrible but seems to come with war I nearly puke and cry when I see the pictures of the prisoners being treated as such

 

[CptStern]

This isn't right or anything, but what 7 iraq's compared to 3000 americans in 9/11....And people bitch about that???

how is Iraq responsible for 9/11?

you dont actually believe they were involved do you?

 

[CptStern]

Oh, and here's a doozy. This is Rumsfield shaking his good buddy Saddam's hand in the 1980s when we supported him in his war with Iran.

the funny thing is that a few days before this meeting the world was treated to news of saddam using chemical weapons on Iranian soldiers, wmd that they bought from the US...didnt seem to bug rumsfeld too much that the man he was shaking hands with was directly responsible for killing hundreds of thousands...until that is, saddam got in the way, then he became worse then hitler

 

[DarkStar]

the funny thing is that a few days before this meeting the world was treated to news of saddam using chemical weapons on Iranian soldiers, wmd that they bought from the US...didnt seem to bug rumsfeld too much that the man he was shaking hands with was directly responsible for killing hundreds of thousands...until that is, saddam got in the way, then he became worse then hitler

You know why the white house believes Iraq absolutely HAS to have weapons of mass destruction?

They still have the receipts.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

You know why the white house believes Iraq absolutely HAS to have weapons of mass destruction?

They still have the receipts.

amen brother

 

[Apos]

I'm sorry to spoil your comforting illusions, but there's plenty of evidence that this is far more than just a couple of bad eggs. This was widespread policy. The Geneva conventions exist not only to protect prisoners, but also the jailers from doing horrible things that will demean our country. Yet this administration again and again special rights to completely ignore the very standards that exist to prevent things like this from happening.

And the fact is, it happened because Rumsfeld has doen a pathetic job in planning and running post-war Iraq. We underfunded our troops, under equipped them, threw untrained soldiers into poorly manned positions where mercenaries with no loyalties or legal responsibility were in command. Even the strongest supporters of the war are starting to admit it: Bush and company utterly botched postwar Iraq. Even conservatives are starting to say it: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_05/003883.php
Whether or not you thought war was a good idea (I thought it was basically inevtiable that we'd have to deal with Saddam at some point, but the WAY it was done was just awful: the absolute worst execution and timing ever), you are going to find it hard to deny that it was very poorly executed and planned: they rushed into it and ignored all warnings and suggestions because of remarkable arrogance and hubris.

And the worst part: this is EXACTLY what Osama predicted and wanted. His whole plan was to get the U.S. to occupy ME countries so that fired up Muslims could wage a slow asymetric war of sabotage and attrition. His whole desire was to goad the U.S. into doing things that would piss off Muslims as much as possible in the hopes that this would radicalize the Middle East. And that's exactly what we did. Bush was exactly what he wanted: a simple-minded machismo who would fall for an obvious gambit. And we fell for it. We are going to be paying the price for decades.

 

[Apos]

Oh, and not torture? Don't fool yourself. First of all, being naked in front of other men, let alone touching their naked bodies or being forced into homosexual acts is, in the Middle East, considered a humilation WORSE than pain or death. Putting a bridle on an old woman and riding her around like a donkey is immensely humiliating the entire culture. And forced into standing may not sound bad to you, but it is actually one of the most painful tortures there is (in fact, it works on a similar mechanism to how crucifixtion is so painful, when the body cannot support itself any longer, but is forced to in order to maintain function). But that's not even the real deal. We are talking rape with various foriegn objects. We are talking MURDER. We are talking pouring toxic chemicals on human beings. We are talking dog attacks. We are talking threats to murder people's families, sometimes with family members present. And we are talking this being standard operating proceedure, tolerated and tacitly encouraged. Not just six men, but in all of the extra-judicial prison camps the U.S. has set up around the world. And you know what: some of the people the Army report says should immediately be fired for running these abuses are STILL working TODAY. They are military contractors who basically face no legal culpability because they convieniently exist outside the law, and far from the crocodile tears this administration sheds in public, they have taken no quick action against abuses that happened LAST YEAR, except to point the finger at these few men and hope America is fooled into thinking that's all it was.

And worse, we are now talking about regular prisoners (whom 40-60% the Red Cross estimates may not even be guilty of anything other than getting rounded up for being in the wrong place in the wrong time): not even suspected terrorists. Some of these people weren't even ever asked any questions at all. And of course, most professional interrogators know that torture is far more likely to produce false confessions than helpful information (basically, they want to tell you whatever they know you want to hear). Torture is what you use if you are trying to get people to help you fabricate evidence: say, like the existence of WMDs.

Bush's outrage about the photos and promise to prosecute the true culprits is about as sincere as OJ's promise to find the real killer.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

I just hope the American people vote this administration out in the next election. Though the damage and hatred has been seeded in the minds of many Iraqis, it's probably too late.

This isn't right or anything, but what 7 iraq's compared to 3000 americans in 9/11....And people bitch about that???

Are you aware of Iraqi civillian death count since America invaded?

Have a read
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm
People have been storing the numbers in a database. It's a lot more than what was lost in the September 11 attacks. Around 600 civillians are dead because of this Fallujah incident alone...

These crimes against humanity must stop. The slaughtering of innocents by Americans must stop.

 

[PvtRyan]

Am I the only one getting the feeling that the US is no less extremist than the countries they fight against?
They're Muslim extremists, we're Christian extremists, the only difference being that we've got big guns, they don't.

This isn't right or anything, but what 7 iraq's compared to 3000 americans in 9/11....And people bitch about that???

So you can torture as many Iraqi's as you want, as long as you stay under the numer 3000? Every tortured Iraqi is one too many, just like every dead American is one too many. We have to keep our reputation of a civilized culture, or at least keep up the illusion, not drag ourselves down to their level.

 

[Apos]

The head of military intelligence right now is, in fact, a man who has publically said that George Bush was elected not by the people, but by God. He has said that he knows we will win because his God is the true God and the Muslim god is a false idol (goes over real well in the Middle East!) and basically that this war in Iraq is the U.S. confronting Satan. I guess, if you see the world in those stark terms, then anything is justified to get what you want (i.e. torturing people into making false confessions about WMDs and connections to Al Qaeda in order to exonerate Bush's foolishness)

 

[DarkStar]

And the fact is, it happened because Rumsfeld has doen a pathetic job in planning and running post-war Iraq.

This is exactly why I think he needs to resign.