This is what "tolerance" gets you...

[leib10]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36981179?GT1=43001

On any other day at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Daniel Galli and his four friends would not even be noticed for wearing T-shirts with the American flag. But Cinco de Mayo is not any typical day especially on a campus with a large Mexican American student population.

Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal's office.

"They said we could wear it on any other day," Daniel Galli said, "but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today."

The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus.

"They said if we tried to go back to class with our shirts not taken off, they said it was defiance and we would get suspended," Dominic Maciel, Galli's friend, said.

The boys really had no choice, and went home to avoid suspension. They say they're angry they were not allowed to express their American pride. Their parents are just as upset, calling what happened to their children, "total nonsense."

"I think it's absolutely ridiculous," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mom, said. "All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. They're expressing their individuality."

But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday.

"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

As for an apology, the boys and their families say, "fat chance."

"I'm not going to apologize. I did nothing wrong," Galli said. "I went along with my normal day. I might have worn an American flag, but I'm an American and I'm proud to be an American."

The five boys and their families met with a Morgan Hill Unified School District official Wednesday night. The district released a statement saying it does not agree with how Live Oak High School administrators handled this incident.

The boys will not be suspended and they were told they can go back to school Thursday. They may even wear their red, white, and blue colors again, but this time, the day after Cinco de Mayo, there will be no controversy.

 

[Eejit]

What a bunch of patriotic (that's an insult btw) drama queens.

 

[CptStern]

I dont get the point of the thread. it's like those people you see who drive around with canadian flags during the World Cup. as if they're saying "we're in canada we fly canadian flags not foreign <insert nationality here> flags. THIS IS CANADA"

and to these people I say stop being a douche

 

[leib10]

What the point of this thread is that foreign ideals and traditions are being upheld over American ones. I understand that it's Cinco de Mayo (I come from an area that's 85% Hispanic, and know that it's a big deal to many of them), but when our own patriotism is snuffed out in favor of another country's, something doesn't add up. It raises the question: where do we draw the line? Where do we stop making allowances for "minority" cultures (I put it in quotes because in many areas, such as where this incident took place, Hispanics are the majority) by disadvantaging those such as the boys in the article? I understand tolerance is important, but in cases such as this, it's getting way too extreme.

 

[Eejit]

Where do we stop making allowances for "minority" cultures (I put it in quotes because in many areas, such as where this incident took place, Hispanics are the majority) by disadvantaging those such as the boys in the article?

Er, how is it making allowances for a minority if they're a majority?
Besides, the boys weren't disadvantaged, they were clearly trolling with those american flags.

 

[MJ12]

I dont get the point of the thread. it's like those people you see who drive around with canadian flags during the World Cup. as if they're saying "we're in canada we fly canadian flags not foreign <insert nationality here> flags. THIS IS CANADA"

and to these people I say stop being a douche

Wow, double standard much? You're completely missing the point. If the shirts were not of a flag, you wouldn't have had a problem.
Imagine if these kids had shirts of the Darwin fish on Good Friday (The day "Jesus was nailed on the cross") and the principle was like "Um, excuse me, you have to change those shirts, you're offending some Christians at this school" -you would be going apeshit.
But oh, it's an American flag T-Shirt, "Hurpdy Durp, Durp, Americas dum, hurr, my reasoning dont apply here". Now you're being just as gay as the Christian Conservatives.

The point is, regardless if it is some lame American flag T-Shirt, or a Bad Religion T-Shirt, those people have the right to wear those shirts despite some pricks who find every goddamn thing offensive.

(inb4 someone makes a contrived swastika argument.)

 

[leib10]

What I'm saying is that they are often portrayed as being a minority, when in fact they are a majority.

What I'm also saying is that there's a double standard here. When it's a "minority" group that proudly displays their heritage, it's called "heroic", "brave", and "fighting against the oppresive power structure" (the recent Phoenix Suns jerseys come to mind). When it's white people doing this, it's "trolling" and "racist" and "inflammatory".

 

[Krynn72]

The kids were probably douchebags, but that doesn't change the fact that they should be allowed to wear whatever they want, holiday be damned. Same way a Mexican american should be allowed to wear whatever they want on US holidays like 4th of July. Freedom of speech bros, the school shouldn't have imposed restrictions on them.

And its not whatever issue leib is bitching about. Its an issue of free speech, not double standards.

 

[CptStern]

Wow, bunch've contradicting fags in this thread. You're completely missing the point. If the shirts were not of the American flag, you wouldn't have had a problem.
Imagine if these kids had shirts of the Darwin fish on Good Friday (The day "Jesus was nailed on the cross") and the principle was like "Um, excuse me, you have to change those shirts, you're offending some Christians at this school" -you would be going apeshit.
But oh, it's an American flag T-Shirt, "Hurpdy Durp, Durp, Americas dum, hurr". Now you're being just as gay as the Christian Conservatives.

put words in my mouth much? this is obvious because I didnt even mention the US but rather canada. anyways; first of all I doubt christians would even know what a Darwin fish is (I'm atheist and had to google it), second of all not once did I say that they couldnt wear their american eagle shirts and third of all YOU'RE missing the point of the people wearing the patriotic shirts

The point is, regardless if it is some lame American flag T-Shirt, or a Bad Religion T-Shirt, those people have the right to wear those shirts despite some pricks who find every goddamn thing offensive.

(inb4 someone makes a contrived swastika argument.)

says who? the board of education makes that determination of what is acceptable not students

your outrage is misplaced because the "pricks who find every goddam thing offensive" are the people you are defending; the people who purposefully wore patriotic shirts because they found the idea of celebrating another culture in AMERIKA offensive to their american-ness

The kids were probably douchebags, but that doesn't change the fact that they should be allowed to wear whatever they want, holiday be damned.

but that's not the case in any school in the western hemisphere.

http://civilliberty.about.com/b/2006/04/21/9th-circuit-schools-can-ban-racist-anti-gay-t-shirts.htm
http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/08/27/islam-is-of-the-devil-say-christian-students/

 

[leib10]

Clearly, you haven't grown up in an area in which Hispanics can call you "gringo" or "guero" (both derogatory terms for a white person), but the second you do something similar, you're brought into the principal's office and accused of being a white supremacist and God knows what else.

Tell me if that isn't a double standard.

 

[leib10]

your outrage is misplaced because the "pricks who find every goddam thing offensive" are the people you are defending; the people who purposefully wore patriotic shirts because they found the idea of celebrating another culture in AMERIKA offensive to their american-ness

Wrong. They're upset because they were not given the same rights as the Cinco de Mayo people.

 

[Tyguy]

Clearly, you haven't grown up in an area in which Hispanics can call you "gringo" or "guero" (both derogatory terms for a white person), but the second you do something similar, you're brought into the principal's office and accused of being a white supremacist and God knows what else.

Tell me if that isn't a double standard.

If that happens again then just tell them their father mows your father's lawn.

 

[MJ12]

your outrage is misplaced because the "pricks who find every goddam thing offensive" are the people you are defending; the people who purposefully wore patriotic shirts because they found the idea of celebrating another culture in AMERIKA offensive to their american-ness

Yes, we understand that these kids are probably xenophobic pricks trying to be witty by wearing the American Flag on Cinco De Mayo. We've established this. But it's non sequitur.
The point is these kids shouldn't be punished for wearing a type of t-shirt on specific day. At that point, the principle is favoring one nationality or group over another; and that is wrong.

Why should a student be punished for wearing a Bad Religion shirt on a Christian Holiday?
Why should a student be punished for wearing Christian Shirt on a Jewish Holiday?
Why should a student be punished for wearing an <insert other nationality> shirt on St. Patricks day?
Why should a student be punished for wearing a shirt with a picture of meat on it because it offends a vegetarian?
-They shouldn't that's ****ing retarded.

 

[CptStern]

Clearly, you haven't grown up in an area in which Hispanics can call you "gringo" or "guero" (both derogatory terms for a white person), but the second you do something similar, you're brought into the principal's office and accused of being a white supremacist and God knows what else.

Tell me if that isn't a double standard.

you seem to be speaking from experience. did you go and report to the principle's office that hispancis were calling you gringo? also you must have been called into the principle's office and accused of being a white supremacist or else how would you know?

 

[Warped]

people should wear what they want to wear. as long as you don't have to see a dong or a nasty twat its cool.

 

[CptStern]

Yes, we understand that these kids are probably xenophobic pricks trying to be witty by wearing the American Flag on Cinco De Mayo. We've established this. But it's non sequitur.
The point is these kids shouldn't be punished for wearing a type of t-shirt on specific day. At that point, the principle is favoring one nationality or group over another; and that is wrong.

that's one hell of a stretch. the principle is trying to avoid an incident. that seems pretty clear to me. and even if he was favouring one nationality over another why shouldnt he? it's cinco de mayo, if it were the 4th of july I'm sure he'd say something if a group of students came in brandishing their non gringo flags

Why should a student be punished for wearing a Bad Religion shirt on a Christian Holiday?
Why should a student be punished for wearing Christian Shirt on a Jewish Holiday?
Why should a student be punished for wearing an <insert other nationality> shirt on St. Patricks day?
-They shouldn't that's ****ing retarded.

your personal opinion is completely meaningless. freedom of speech rules do not apply or there wouldnt be things like dress codes or rules against wearing offensive clothing.

the problem is that too many of you are thinking with your emotions rather than thinking within the context of the circumstances of the incident

 

[Bad^Hat]

This is pretty stupid on both fronts. For one thing, **** your patriotism. Wear whatever goddamn shirt you want, but a USA bandana? Really? Now you're just trying too hard, it's a country not a ****ing gang.

Secondly, how on earth is wearing an American flag offensive to Mexicans just because it's their holiday? I had to look this up because I honestly had no idea what the holiday was about, but wikipedia tells me (for what it's worth) that it's in celebration of a victory against the French (so wouldn't a Canadian flag be more offensive?), and is mainly observed IN AMERICA. Unless I'm missing something - **** your heritage, you're the ones living there, deal with it.

Seems to me this is just another case of people overreacting to something which could have been easily ignored, but instead has been turned into an issue of race and culture when in reality it has nothing to do with either. At it's core, this is probably just a couple of jerks wearing something they knew would be inflammatory (for reasons I fail to grasp) just to be jerks. Instead, they now have a nice big news article where they come off as the discriminated victims. Nicely handled, school board.

 

[leib10]

you seem to be speaking from experience. did you go and report to the principle's office that hispancis were calling you gringo? also you must have been called into the principle's office and accused of being a white supremacist or else how would you know?

Yes on both counts.

 

[15357]

First of all, head-wear is (or should be) against dress code regulations.

Secondly, when your teacher asks you to do something, you happily oblige. Even if he/she is not carrying a golf club.

Thirdly, this can all be solved by having some damn uniforms.

Fourthly, "tolerance" is stupid. Whose side are you on? Ours? Then get with the program, mister.

You see any strifes over what people wear here? Of course you don't.

 

[MuToiD_MaN]

They were trolling, plain and simple, and if that causes them to get into a fight, it's their own damn fault.

 

[Higlac]

TLDR

People get offended because they want to be offended. If everyone just shut the hell up about offensive term this, offensive sign that, then nobody would care. Racists are only racist if the person they are insulting sees it as such.

 

[Tyguy]

that's one hell of a stretch. the principle is trying to avoid an incident. that seems pretty clear to me. and even if he was favouring one nationality over another why shouldnt he? it's cinco de mayo, if it were the 4th of july I'm sure he'd say something if a group of students came in brandishing their non gringo flags

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. The principle's intentions might be for the better but that is entirely irrelevant. Suggesting that wearing these shirts is wrong one day but perfectly fine on others is nonsense. Like Mutoid suggested, these kids are probably douche bags and might have intended to illicit a response but like I said, it's irrelevant. I don't think a principle should be able to amend the rule book wherever he sees fit.

 

[Nuada]

Isn't Cinco de Mayo a celebration of some French military defeat? Maybe those all-american patriots were just celebrating in their own way and this is all a horrible misunderstanding...

Either way, it appears they were trying to wind up the hispanic kids. I really don't get it though. The US has nothing invested in this celebration. I mean, I can picture someone getting a hiding here for wearing a union jack on Paddy's day, right or wrong, but this is like someone wearing an Andrew's Cross.

 

[No Limit]

Kind of obvious that they shouldn't have asked them to remove those flags. Also kind of obvious these kids were douchebags.

/Thread over

 

[Nuada]

What No Limit said.

 

[The Monkey]

"All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. They're expressing their individuality."

displaying their patriotic nature. expressing their individuality

patriotic, individuality

Does not compute.

 

[Absinthe]

I suspect many of you would have been highly critical of this situation's handling had it involved any other national symbol.

Hypocrites.

the problem is that too many of you are thinking with your emotions rather than thinking within the context of the circumstances of the incident

HA-****ING-HA

 

[<RJMC>]

stern would be the first to wear a "jesus loves abortion" tshirt on easter

 

[No Limit]

I suspect many of you would have been highly critical of this situation's handling had it involved any other national symbol.

Hypocrites.

I think most people are being critical.

 

[unozero]

Race War incoming!

 

[Sheepo]

Um, can't say I understand the title of this thread.

When it's white people doing this, it's "trolling" and "racist" and "inflammatory".

Well it clearly was trolling and inflammatory. Wearing something in opposition to what others feel and are wearing to potentially get a rise out of them is pretty obvious trolling. Which makes them dumb, but doesn't change the fact that it's their right to wear it.

 

[CptStern]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. The principle's intentions might be for the better but that is entirely irrelevant.

it is irrelevant but that's not my point at all. I'm not justifying why the policy is in place but rather the principle's right to inoke that policy; board of ed procedure is board of ed procedure. there's no way around it I've been through the system principles are obligated to follow board policy

Suggesting that wearing these shirts is wrong one day but perfectly fine on others is nonsense.

sure it is because it's just a shirt and really if you're offend by the printed form you should probably gouge your eyes out but that really doesnt matter as it violates board policy. is it stupid ya sure but it's an umbrella policy meant to cover multiple scenarios/t-shirts. just like freedom of speech protects white supremacists as well as ordinary folk equally

Like Mutoid suggested, these kids are probably douche bags and might have intended to illicit a response but like I said, it's irrelevant.

sure it's irrelevant to you and I but not to the board of ed; that's the whole reasoning for the incident in the first place: that it's meant to provoke/offend. we've all agreed it was worn to provoke therefore the principle's reasoning in invoking this policy has been met

I don't think a principle should be able to amend the rule book wherever he sees fit.

but that's what you are in fact advocating; bending the rules this one time

HA-****ING-HA

you prove my point. odd that someone who prides himself for being emotionless is anything but. your outrage prevents you from seeing this as anything but an attack on freedom of speech

 

[Top Secret]

The "policy" is stupid.

Please see first amendment.

 

[CptStern]

ok someone start a petition for schools to get rid of dress codes




also this:

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969). In this famous decision, the Court ruled 7-2 that public school officials could not censor student expression â?? the wearing of black armbands, in that case â?? unless they could reasonably forecast that the student expression would cause substantial disruption or material interference with school activities or would invade the rights of others

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org..._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_Dist

you have an uphill battle to wage, get cracking

 

[CptStern]

http://instantcrickets.com/

 

[Higlac]

Let me get this straight, it's wrong for Americans to wear a flag, in America, on a Mexican holiday?

 

[Mr. Djees]

It doesn't sound like the policy says "Thou shalt not wear flag-shirts on Cinco de Mayo"

The five boys and their families met with a Morgan Hill Unified School District official Wednesday night. The district and the school do not see eye-to-eye on the incident and released the following statement:

The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions.

 

[Tyguy]

Sorry, I got distracted after I clicked your link and read "Court may untangle student-speech cases with bong hits"

It's actually kinda funny when you read the case

Anyway...

Thanks for at least googling the litigation behind this. IMO there's plenty of room to argue in terms of the wording.

I think it was negligent not to elaborate on the seemingly limitless interpretation of a word like 'substantial'. What qualifies as a substantial disruption as opposed to a non-substantial disruption? I'll admit my entire argument is dependent on semantics but I believe it's valid.

 

[Solaris]

Schools have dress codes and should be able to enforce it how they want.

I'm with numbers, they should have uniforms, but hey.

It seems what the school did was say, "Today is a celebration of Mexico" and these students dressed contrary to that, so **** them.

Shouldn't be wearing your national flag on a T-shirt anyway, it's crass.

 

[Tagaziel]

Let me get this strait.

It's a Mexican holiday and a big event for the Mexican majority in the area.
Five American boys refused to respect their holiday and for ONE DAY not wear an American flag.
When they are asked to remove the flags for ONE DAY...

Americans go apeshit "DEY TOOK OUR PATREETEESM!!!!"

Now that's mature.