This is what "tolerance" gets you...

[Absinthe]

you prove my point. odd that someone who prides himself for being emotionless is anything but. your outrage prevents you from seeing this as anything but an attack on freedom of speech

:dozey:

Really clever, stern. Believe me, the only thing that triggered any kind of emotional response from me was the suggestion that people aren't arguing dispassionately coming from you of all people. Everybody here knows your tone would have been radically different had this involved anything but a US flag. Even if the school has the right to enforce these kinds of policies, that doesn't make them any less stupid. The truth is that your arguments about possible incidents over a couple of stupid bandanas would have been one of the furthest points of concern in your posts had this scenario taken place somewhere else. You wouldn't be pulling this tired "But the law says..." schtick you usually do when this happens.

There is nothing inherently inappropriate about wearing a flag in any situation (well, within reason) even if these kids were doing it to make a point of disrespect. The possibility of something escalating from this act alone - let alone anything substantial - was very slim. And if anybody was going to make a fuss about it, it seems it would be coming from people getting all butthurt over "Oh no, those mean-spirited bandanas ruined this amazing holiday!" or something equally ridiculous and PC.

 

[Solaris]

I think the same thing would happen over here if some kids wore union jack caps or jackets during eid or something. It's obvious that they're just using patriotism as a front for racism.

 

[Absinthe]

I should correct my previous post to say that there are kinds of clothing we certainly can and should prohibit from being worn on school property if its carrying obvious connotations or intent to offend. I don't think faculty should be completely hand-tied and be allowed to read between the lines on stuff like this. But I think you'd be hard pressed to make that case with a national symbol in such an innocuous form. Who gives a shit if its worn during Cinco?

 

[Raziaar]

The kids were probably douchebags, but that doesn't change the fact that they should be allowed to wear whatever they want, holiday be damned. Same way a Mexican american should be allowed to wear whatever they want on US holidays like 4th of July. Freedom of speech bros, the school shouldn't have imposed restrictions on them.

And its not whatever issue leib is bitching about. Its an issue of free speech, not double standards.

Yeah.

I have no issue with the kids wearing those shirts. But they were probably being disruptive by behavior and not simply their wear of the shirts.

Wear whatever the **** you want to school I say, as long as it is not completely absurd or offensive.

And people shouldn't be offended by kids wearing the American flag shirts. It's Cinco de Mayo... it's a celebration of the Mexican Army's victory over the French... it's not a suppression of the United States flag day. Who cares if people wear the flag on Cinco de Mayo.

Maybe if they were wearing the French flag I could see the point why people could make a fuss.

Schools have dress codes and should be able to enforce it how they want.

I'm with numbers, they should have uniforms, but hey.

It seems what the school did was say, "Today is a celebration of Mexico" and these students dressed contrary to that, so **** them.

Shouldn't be wearing your national flag on a T-shirt anyway, it's crass.

Wearing the US flag isn't a contrary to celebration of Mexico... it's just neutral. It has no relevance whatsoever.

The kids are idiots to think it does have relevance though... idiots for thinking wearing the American Flag will somehow pose a message on Cinco de Mayo.

 

[smwScott]

Heh ... these boys probably were just being douchebags, but I can also see this as a pretty legitimate protest shining a light on the cultural situation where they live. They're free to celebrate their holiday however they want, and there's no logical reason for them to be offended by the presence of an American flag. If they are offended by it, they probably shouldn't ****ing be here.

Imagine if a Mexican boy was forced to turn his shirt inside out or remove an article of clothing because it had his countries flag on it? There would be ****ing hell to pay - but it would be just as wrong as what happened here.

The truth is that America seems far too ready to have it's culture completely overridden and walked all over. That is bullshit. The Mexicans aren't an oppressed minority like the blacks. They weren't brought here against their will and they haven't endured centuries of oppression and hardship as American citizens. All in all America has been pretty good to Mexicans, better than their own country at least. They don't need or deserve special treatment.

If they're pissed off by something someone else does, they're just going to have to ****ing deal with it like everyone else.

 

[VirusType2]

Suspended from school for wearing patriotic colors. Now I've seen it all.

Only in America.


(I'm purposefully ignoring the context of the situation, which may or may not change anything)

 

[kineaesth]

I doubt christians would even know what a Darwin fish is (I'm atheist and had to google it)

Quoting this because it makes me endlessly happy

 

[Sheepo]

Let me get this strait.

It's a Mexican holiday and a big event for the Mexican majority in the area.
Five American boys refused to respect their holiday and for ONE DAY not wear an American flag.
When they are asked to remove the flags for ONE DAY...

Americans go apeshit "DEY TOOK OUR PATREETEESM!!!!"

Now that's mature.

There's a little thing called freedom of speech which might have some importance here as well.

 

[Shyam]

Sometimes Freedom of speech allows people to say or express opinion/stance that may be unpopular. It runs both ways.

 

[Sheepo]

That's the point.

 

[Mogi67]

Cinco De Mayo isn't even an important holiday in mexico...

 

[MultiVaC]

Schools have dress codes, and there aren't really any first amendment rights present on most high school campuses. I'm pretty sure the school officials usually value "keeping the peace" over the students' freedom of expression. I remember kids being sent home for simply wearing the colors red or blue because it was a "gang reference" in high school. It's pretty unfortunate in my opinion, but telling these kids not to wear the flags is within the realm of many schools can and do enforce. There isn't any constitution for school dress codes, it's entirely at the discretion of the school officials and differs between the different campuses.

Why should a student be punished for wearing a Bad Religion shirt on a Christian Holiday?

I had run-ins with school officials for wearing a Bad Religion t-shirt on ANY day.

 

[Nuada]

People stop pretending free speech exists. It doesn't. It's a nice slogan that gives the ignorant who should keep their mouths shut something to shout about.

 

[15357]

People stop pretending free speech exists. It doesn't. It's a nice slogan that gives the ignorant who should keep their mouths shut something to shout about.

Wow. My thoughts exactly.

 

[flamingdts]

The school should not have suspended the kids. The kids should not have been trolling.

The school is the one with authority, so they did whatever shit they wanted. That has been the case for everything in life, no surprises here.

 

[flamingdts]

I find it incredibly difficult to care at all about this news story (I think "drama queens" is spot on for both sides), but I am quite happy about the Fox News poll: Should the American Flag Be Banned -- in America? Vote yes for fair and balanced poll titles

Love it, there are more people saying yes than no.

Faux News is such a pathetic station.

 

[No Limit]

Let me get this strait.

It's a Mexican holiday and a big event for the Mexican majority in the area.
Five American boys refused to respect their holiday and for ONE DAY not wear an American flag.
When they are asked to remove the flags for ONE DAY...

Americans go apeshit "DEY TOOK OUR PATREETEESM!!!!"

Now that's mature.

The reason mexican people can celebrate their holiday (and amercians too as its a good excuse to get shitfaced) is because of freedom of speech (yes, it does exist). We don't like to tell people in this country what they can and can not say. If these kids wanted to be douche bags they had every right to do that. Yet the school decided that wearing the Mexican flags was ok and wearing the American flag was offensive and should not be allowed. That's just as a bad as it sounds.

 

[CptStern]

:dozey:

Really clever, stern. Believe me, the only thing that triggered any kind of emotional response from me was the suggestion that people aren't arguing dispassionately coming from you of all people.

you mean you're assuming I should react in a certain way about subject A based on how I've reacted to subject B? I mean I was certainly being dispassionate in this thread when pointing out that the context behind the incident and not abstract ideology is what is important here. should I have jumped on the bandwagon and incorrectly frame this as a free speech issue?

Everybody here knows your tone would have been radically different had this involved anything but a US flag.

and what reaction would that be? I've already stated that being offended by a t-shirt is stupid. what more do you want out of me? what combination of words should I have used to personally placate you?

Even if the school has the right to enforce these kinds of policies, that doesn't make them any less stupid.

you still dont ****ing get it. whether it's stupid or not is irrelevant. all it needs to be is offensive and or meant to provoke. which we've all agreed it is. you're arguing about apples when the discussion is about oranges

The truth is that your arguments about possible incidents over a couple of stupid bandanas would have been one of the furthest points of concern in your posts had this scenario taken place somewhere else. You wouldn't be pulling this tired "But the law says..." schtick you usually do when this happens.

I replied to Lieb10's thread and the implied assertation that this is somehow a case of reverse racism/intolerance for america. others joined in and made it an issue of freedom of speech. others still jumped in and made this an issue of whether the american flag is offensive or not ..but all of this is besides the point and is more of an issue of school dress codes in general and doesnt really apply to this case in particular. start a thread about school dress codes and the constitutionality of t-shirts with messages if you'd like

There is nothing inherently inappropriate about wearing a flag in any situation (well, within reason) even if these kids were doing it to make a point of disrespect.

you completely contradicted yourself. within reason meaning ... what you find reasonable of what the Board of Education finds reasonable? if it's the latter then there's really nothing to discuss

The possibility of something escalating from this act alone - let alone anything substantial - was very slim.

how could you possibly know this? you are in no position to make that determination

And if anybody was going to make a fuss about it, it seems it would be coming from people getting all butthurt over "Oh no, those mean-spirited bandanas ruined this amazing holiday!" or something equally ridiculous and PC.

again you're arguing abstract concepts. it's up to the discretion of the principle, you dont need a complaint beforehand. if he thinks there's a reasonable chance it may cause a disturbance according to Board policy he is obligated to do take action. again, you just cant/wont see this. whether the t-shirt is stupid or not is immaterial

however I do believe the board will make an about face when the media (and most people, you included Absinthe) are framing the issue in this way:

I am quite happy about the Fox News poll: Should the American Flag Be Banned -- in America? Vote yes for fair and balanced poll titles

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/05/06/american-flag-banned-america/

love how they're now calling this story the "Flag Controversy". you've been dragged in by sensationalism

 

[Eejit]

That's just as a bad as it sounds.

Not really. Schools have some say over what students can or cannot wear, and they were trying to do their duty to prevent what they saw as the likelihood of fighting between students.

 

[Solaris]

Yeah, kids get no freedom of speech at school. They're there to learn from and add to a positive learning environment. These flags went against that and were removed. When you're educated, and hopefully turned into sensible human beings who wouldn't do this silly stunt, you can wear a flag when you want.

When you're at school however, whatever the teachers think best for the school generally is.

 

[No Limit]

Not really. Schools have some say over what students can or cannot wear, and they were trying to do their duty to prevent what they saw as the likelihood of fighting between students.

So let schools in republican areas decide all Obama shirts are banned yet Sara Palin shirts are fine. You can use the same excuse, it will avoid fights because most kids will be republicans anyway.

 

[No Limit]

Yeah, kids get no freedom of speech at school. They're there to learn from and add to a positive learning environment. These flags went against that and were removed. When you're educated, and hopefully turned into sensible human beings who wouldn't do this silly stunt, you can wear a flag when you want.

When you're at school however, whatever the teachers think best for the school generally is.

I didn't know the constitution ended with the phrase ... except when in school.

Schools are public property. I think you can teach kids without treating them like shit. Just my personal opinion.

 

[leib10]

I suspect many of you would have been highly critical of this situation's handling had it involved any other national symbol.

Hypocrites.

This. Had it been the other way around, with Hispanic kids being sent home after wearing Mexican flag bandanas on, say, the 4th of July, it would've been "OUTRAGE! INTOLERANCE! ANOTHER FINE EXAMPLE OF AMERICAN OPRESSION!" and similar responses.

Of course the kids are trolling, the same way that the KKK trolls, the NAACP trolls, the Phoenix Suns troll, and pretty much every other activist group with an opposing group trolls. That's how you get noticed and get your message out- by standing up for what you believe in despite what others think. Once upon a time that was called courage- just look at the Civil Rights movement. Nowadays, we're content to roll over and accept this wonderful invention called "political correctness" which prevents us from speaking out against almost anything, lest it be offensive.

How did it come to this?

 

[No Limit]

How did it come to this?

Relax, its one school doing something stupid. Not exactly the end of the world, put the guns down.

 

[Eejit]

.... Leib just called the KKK courageous?

So let schools in republican areas decide all Obama shirts are banned yet Sara Palin shirts are fine. You can use the same excuse, it will avoid fights because most kids will be republicans anyway.

It was a particular day when tensions were unusually heightened, so that's not a great analogy. Also, multiquote don't double-post

 

[CptStern]

So let schools in republican areas decide all Obama shirts are banned yet Sara Palin shirts are fine. You can use the same excuse, it will avoid fights because most kids will be republicans anyway.

it doesnt quite work that way. the t-shirt would have to cause a reasonable amount of offense OR provoke an unwanted reaction that threatens the safety of students and the school. they purposefully word it so that it's clear that the intent is more important than the t-shirt itself. freedom of speech only applies so long as the policy is challenged in court. even then it's an uphill battle because the precedent setting case established that while student's right to wear what they want should not be infringed the school has a right to ban certain clothing that may cause a reasonable amount of offense and or cause a disruption that may put students and the school at risk

 

[leib10]

Relax, its one school doing something stupid. Not exactly the end of the world, put the guns down.

In this case, sure, it's only one school. In the future? It's possible that it'll happen again, or already has and not gone reported. Time will tell.

 

[No Limit]

it doesnt quite work that way. the t-shirt would have to cause a reasonable amount of offense OR provoke an unwanted reaction that threatens the safety of students and the school. they purposefully word it so that it's clear that the intent is more important than the t-shirt itself. freedom of speech only applies so long as the policy is challenged in court. even then it's an uphill battle because the precedent setting case established that while student's right to wear what they want should not be infringed the school has a right to ban certain clothing that may cause a reasonable amount of offense and or cause a disruption that may put students and the school at risk

You really don't think kids in a school district with a huge tea bagger majority would get offended by an Obama shirt? Or say a shirt supporting socialism?

Who gets to decide what is offensive and not offensive? The administrators who will all have their own political biases?

In this case, sure, it's only one school. In the future? It's possible that it'll happen again, or already has and not gone reported. Time will tell.

Like I said, put the guns down. I dont know how long you've been on this planet but people do stupid things all the time, this won't lead to anything; it's an isolated incident.

It was a particular day when tensions were unusually heightened, so that's not a great analogy. Also, multiquote don't double-post

Fair enough, so we just let them ban Obama shirts during election years when things are unusually heightened.

And sometimes I get too lazy to multiquote or edit a post when I want to add something new.

 

[CptStern]

You really don't think kids in a school district with a huge tea bagger majority would get offended by an Obama shirt? Or say a shirt supporting socialism?

Who gets to decide what is offensive and not offensive? The administrators who will all have their own political biases?

yes. it's board policy so a principle is responsible for the application of board policies. and if he wants to ban Obama t-shirts because he's republican he might as well brush up on his resume as he'll soon be unemployed. however if there were a legitimate threat OR it's reasonably offensive (which I suspect he'd have a hard time proving) then he could ban obama t-shirts

In this case, sure, it's only one school. In the future? It's possible that it'll happen again, or already has and not gone reported. Time will tell.

:upstare: you're a conspiracy loon

 

[No Limit]

yes. it's board policy so a principle is responsible for the application of board policies. and if he wants to ban Obama t-shirts because he's republican he might as well brush up on his resume as he'll soon be unemployed. however if there were a legitimate threat OR it's reasonably offensive (which I suspect he'd have a hard time proving) then he could ban obama t-shirts

And you are ok with this? Why would he lose his job? You just said he has a right to do this, if he has that right I'm sure his contract will protect him.

And this allows them to make any stupid excuse to ban certain political speech in public schools while protecting certain other political speech. Which is exactly what happened here.

 

[CptStern]

And you are ok with this? Why would he lose his job? You just said he has a right to do this, if he has that right I'm sure his contract will protect him.

where did I say I'm ok with any of this? and he's lose his job because his political views are not supposed to influence his decisions as it pertains to board policy. or at the very least he should be able to justify it in accordance to board of education guidelines for that particular policy

And this allows them to make any stupid excuse to ban certain political speech in public schools while protecting certain other political speech. Which is exactly what happened here.

not at all. speech is not protected when it comes to dress code under certain circumstances. they couldnt use this policy to stop political speechin general. only if it applies to the dress code

 

[No Limit]

where did I say I'm ok with any of this? and he's lose his job because his political views are not supposed to influence his decisions as it pertains to board policy. or at the very least he should be able to justify it in accordance to board of education guidelines for that particular policy

Well you seem to be defending their right to set these policies, if I'm wrong about that then my bad.

But he could easily make the excuse that it had nothing to do with politics, he is just trying to protect Obama supporters from fights. The exact same argument this principle made.

not at all. speech is not protected when it comes to dress code under certain circumstances. they couldnt use this policy to stop political speechin general. only if it applies to the dress code

I dont agree. You can make a dress code that says you can't wear any flags out there. Or a dress code that says no political speech. But when you start to say these flags are ok and these aren't, or that this political speech is ok and this one isn't, then you are infringing on free speech.

 

[CptStern]

Well you seem to be defending their right to set these policies, if I'm wrong about that then my bad.

I'm not defending their right to set these policies I'm explaining why they have a right to use policies written for these sort of incidents

But he could easily make the excuse that it had nothing to do with politics, he is just trying to protect Obama supporters from fights. The exact same argument this principle made.

yes however it still would be hard to prove. I'm sure the principle is as we speak being put through the wringer in an attempt to justify his actions

I dont agree. You can make a dress code that says you can't wear any flags out there. Or a dress code that says no political speech. But when you start to say these flags are ok and these aren't, or that this political speech is ok and this one isn't, then you are infringing on free speech.

agian they're not saying that certain flags are ok and other flags are not. they explicitedly said that they can wear their flag shirts on any other day. they're trying to avoid a problem that the tshirts could have caused.

 

[No Limit]

I'm not defending their right to set these policies I'm explaining why they have a right to use policies written for these sort of incidents

yes however it still would be hard to prove. I'm sure the principle is as we speak being put through the wringer in an attempt to justify his actions

As he should be, I dont think what he did was right. And if he just followed the rules those rules need to be changed.

agian they're not saying that certain flags are ok and other flags are not. they explicitedly said that they can wear their flag shirts on any other day. they're trying to avoid a problem that the tshirts could have caused.

That's exactly what they are saying. By saying you can't wear American flags on cinco de mayo but only mexican flags you are telling one group they have a right to speech while telling another group that they don't.

 

[CptStern]

As he should be, I dont think what he did was right. And if he just followed the rules those rules need to be changed.

but we can all agree that the t-shirt wearing guys were just doing it because they're douchebags. it's obvious they wore it to provoke. that alone justifies using the policy because that's why it was written

That's exactly what they are saying. By saying you can't wear American flags on cinco de mayo but only mexican flags you are telling one group they have a right to speech while telling another group that they don't.

they're not saying that at all. it's no different had they worn a mexican flag t-shirts on July the 4th in a predomiately white school; it's provacative. it's purpose is to ellicit a response.

 

[No Limit]

but we can all agree that the t-shirt wearing guys were just doing it because they're douchebags. it's obvious they wore it to provoke. that alone justifies using the policy because that's why it was written

I agree with the fact they were being douchebags. But you can't limit what they can and can not say because you think they are douchebags. If a fight actually broke out deal with it then. You are allowing the principal to made the decision of what is ok and what isn't. And this case I dont believe they made the right decision.

they're not saying that at all. it's no different had they worn a mexican flag t-shirts on July the 4th in a predomiately white school; it's provacative. it's purpose is to ellicit a response.

So what if they wear a mexican flag on 4th of july? They would also be douchebags, but you don't limit their right to do that (not on public property).

The school is saying this speech is ok on this day and this speech isn't ok. How is that not infringing on your freedom of speech?

 

[Krynn72]

I think you missed a rather important bit of information here stern. The clothing in question are not outright banned, nor did the board of education make this decision that they couldnt wear the shirts ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY. There is no rule saying you can't wear a flag shirt on one say, but every other day its fine.

 

[CptStern]

I think you missed a rather important bit of information here stern. The clothing in question are not outright banned,

I know:

They said we could wear it on any other day

nor did the board of education make this decision that they couldnt wear the shirts ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY.

yes they didnt announce that before the day in question however that was his reasoning:

They said we could wear it on any other day," Daniel Galli said, "but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today."


"They said if we tried to go back to class with our shirts not taken off, they said it was defiance and we would get suspended," Dominic Maciel, Galli's friend, said.

The boys really had no choice, and went home to avoid suspension.

There is no rule saying you can't wear a flag shirt on one say, but every other day its fine.

see above. the rule is; you're not supposed to wear anything that has a reasonable chance of either being offense or provoking students to the point where safety is an issue

 

[leib10]

:upstare: you're a conspiracy loon

And you've stuck your head in the sand.

 

[CptStern]

I agree with the fact they were being douchebags. But you can't limit what they can and can not say because you think they are douchebags. If a fight actually broke out deal with it then. You are allowing the principal to made the decision of what is ok and what isn't. And this case I dont believe they made the right decision.



So what if they wear a mexican flag on 4th of july? They would also be douchebags, but you don't limit their right to do that (not on public property).

The school is saying this speech is ok on this day and this speech isn't ok. How is that not infringing on your freedom of speech?

you're arguing dress code policy not the actual incident. it's up to the courts to decide if their freedom of speech has been violated or in the constitutionality of dress codes. however the court has already ruled on this and school boards are allowed to limit what people wear if there is a reasonable risk of offense and or a threat to school safety

And you've stuck your head in the sand.

odd you're the one hiding his head in the sand by ignoring the real issue and turning this into a racial debate