Thoughts on Microsoft Surface?

[ríomhaire]

So this is nearly out. There's no hope in hell I can afford one but I do think that the Surface Pro looks pretty interesting. Here's a breakdown on the difference between the Pro and non-Pro versions. Basically the Pro version comes with a pen and has a full version of Windows 8 that can run Metro and Windows 7 programs, while the non-Pro one only runs Metro and Windows Store programs. Both versions have a built in stand and a cover (silicone?) that doubles as a keyboard. It only has 1 USB port and a micro SD instead of full SD port though. I'm never going to be an early adaptor for this kind of stuff but I could see myself getting a Windows 8 tablet down the line.

Bring on the hate.

 

[Krynn72]

I'm not interested in it because they did that "spend more money to use win7 programs" stunt. **** them. I've been thinking about getting a tablet/laptop, and I quickly crossed Surface off that list, as well as most windows 8 platforms. It seems like many tablets are going to be the same way, limiting programs to just those using Metro and Windows store ones. **** that, makes the entire thing completely worthless in my opinion.

Either way, I think I'll just be getting a convertible laptop/tablet. That way I get a real laptop, with decent hard drive size and etc, and not for much more than a shitty slate tablet.

 

[TechnoHippyChic]

I like the idea of the (Pro) Surface, but it's too small for my tastes. I'm more interested in the Lenovo Yoga.

 

[Rorschach120]

It seems like another company sticking their d*** in the honey jar. This is a product for people who know next to nothing about software but are still too proud to buy an iPad because of it's intended market. They are both the same, one just has MS on it. Not to mention I tested W8 and it is complete crap, even on a tablet. The desktop is now an app... Seriously, WTF MS?

If you want a tablet get an ASUS tablet and put GNU/Linux (preferably Ubuntu) on it. I don't think most of you will be playing too many games on a tablet. I figure you are all capable gents and can figure out how to Google how to do it.

 

[Shamrock]

Well, I'll just say that I think the Surface looks fantastic. I think Windows 8 is great. Sure, I wish they did away with Windows RT and made it only Windows 8, but it doesn't matter to me because I'd want the Surface Pro anyway.

 

[Raziaar]

I'm not interested in it because they did that "spend more money to use win7 programs" stunt. **** them. I've been thinking about getting a tablet/laptop, and I quickly crossed Surface off that list, as well as most windows 8 platforms. It seems like many tablets are going to be the same way, limiting programs to just those using Metro and Windows store ones. **** that, makes the entire thing completely worthless in my opinion.

Either way, I think I'll just be getting a convertible laptop/tablet. That way I get a real laptop, with decent hard drive size and etc, and not for much more than a shitty slate tablet.

Get a W530 like me. Well be W530 bros!


EDIT: it's not convertible though. Lenovo is coming out with a new one with 4 different "modes" that it can be in, however. http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/laptop/ideapad/yoga/yoga-13/?ipromoID=bannerYoga13

 

[Krynn72]

I've got a Thinkpad T61 which is pretty dope, but I want a touch screen. Just this morning actually, I ended up buying a used HP Touchsmart TM2. A customer brought one in for service, so I got to play around with it for awhile before ordering it. Its pretty sweet, if a little lcd-heavy (causes it to lean a bit when the screens up like a normal laptop). For $400 shipped its a 100x better deal than any slate tablet out now, and probably better than any slate tablet coming out any time soon. I'll have to try windows 8 on it just to see how it works.

 

[xcellerate]

I'm going to go to the microsoft store on friday to play with one, but it's going to be a hard sell for $500.

I've been using win8 since feb. or so, and I only uninstalled it yesterday. But I hate Metro so much, it literally has no redeeming qualities and it blows my mind that a group of people were able to come up with something so horribly inefficient and be proud of themselves.

 

[Krynn72]

Harsh bro. Why are you even going to try out the Surface then? Especially the one thats $500, which is ONLY Metro stuff?

I didn't mind Metro, at all when I was using it. Admittedly, I only used it for like 2 days, but the reason I uninstalled it was simply because there were a lot of unimplemented features at the time, and I only had the one laptop and didn't feel like triplebooting with Win7+Win8+linux.

 

[Rorschach120]

There are too many reasons why Windows 8 will be a failure. To the point where I have no respect for those backing it, as they don't have a clue, or are buying into MS's corporate scheme to close off the PC. Open-source is the future, this is undeniable.

Like I hinted at before, it is good marketing and our obsessive culture that allows this, Windows 8, to happen. MS is taking a page from Steve Jobs.

I know for a fact that people are mostly eating this up for reasons that they do not know. Does anyone else here have schooling/knowledge in graphics and (especially) color theory?

 

[Krynn72]

I just bought windows 8 pro just to piss you off. It works pretty good on my tablet, all my software still works, I like the aesthetics (yes, I know color theory), and it was only $69 from Best Buy. Pretty good deal I think.

 

[Rorschach120]

Doesn't upset me... Just makes you look dumb for spending $70 just to "piss me off." Too bad that's all you would have achieved. I hope you like the aesthetics. The part about color theory refers to the marketing, not the actual GUI. Although the whole metro GUI is terrible, it is not the worst of it.

 

[Krynn72]

You sound like you probably haven't even used it, and if you have then you're simply being disingenuous, or at the very least hyperbolic. And I know you were referring to the marketing "aspect" of the color theory, in that you think they're using it to manipulate people into buying it despite it not being something they want. Also, I obviously didn't buy it just to piss you off, so anybody who thought I was speaking literally is therefore dumb themselves.

I don't deny there are flaws with the OS, but people are going way overboard with the hate. Unsurprisingly, the most passionate hate generally comes from the Apple hateboys, a group who are almost as irrational as Apple fanboys. Anything seen trying to replicate a successful part of Apple's stuff will tarnish the entire package for these people. I think that, at the very worst, Win 8 will be as bad as Vista was, in that it will still sell millions and millions of copies and most users will have no issue with it, because it wasn't that bad of an OS. After some patches and dust settling, it will be a perfectly functional OS for all but the smallest minority (specifically, PC Gamers).

 

[Shamrock]

You sound like you probably haven't even used it, and if you have then you're simply being disingenuous, or at the very least hyperbolic. And I know you were referring to the marketing "aspect" of the color theory, in that you think they're using it to manipulate people into buying it despite it not being something they want. Also, I obviously didn't buy it just to piss you off, so anybody who thought I was speaking literally is therefore dumb themselves.

I don't deny there are flaws with the OS, but people are going way overboard with the hate. Unsurprisingly, the most passionate hate generally comes from the Apple hateboys, a group who are almost as irrational as Apple fanboys. Anything seen trying to replicate a successful part of Apple's stuff will tarnish the entire package for these people. I think that, at the very worst, Win 8 will be as bad as Vista was, in that it will still sell millions and millions of copies and most users will have no issue with it, because it wasn't that bad of an OS. After some patches and dust settling, it will be a perfectly functional OS for all but the smallest minority (specifically, PC Gamers).

I like your style, sir.

I bought the Pro version from Amazon and got $30 back in credit.

Rorschach, you're making those from Pitt look dumb. Windows 8 is great in itself. The absolute only thing that is different about it is the 'Start Screen.' If you don't want to use the Modern UI, I recommend getting Pokki as a replacement. It's free and actually extremely functional.

I've been using the Enterprise version exclusively for the past 53 days. I have 37 days left. Sure, there are some things that don't make sense yet such as the Netflix app saying I have an incompatible driver even though it's the latest and greatest from Nvidia, and yes, there are some odd quirks such as apps not installing (but I think that's due to Windows 8 having like 2 GB free left on this partition). Anyway, I don't have to explain why I like Windows 8/Surface.

Also, Rorschach, do you know if the Windows pop-up store opened at Ross Park yet? I want to make a trip there to check out Surface!

 

[Rorschach120]

Ugh... First off, I'm not here to insult anyone. I was merely over-responding to the shear lack of actual reason behind buying the OS. Neither of you have actually responded to my point. Which is that MS is creating a closed distribution service like Apple. I don't mind having a closed iPhone, which is a nice piece of equipment. When it comes to the PC though, they need to back off. Yes, they do allow you to create and distribute software as part of the old "desktop model" (the 'start screen'...) but how long do you really think it will be until your PC and iPhone have the same capabilities unless you hack them or put GNU on them? This is a move in the wrong direction for MS.

Anyway, I don't have to explain why I like Windows 8/Surface.

I like your style, sir. Hit it and quit it.

Rorschach, you're making those from Pitt look dumb.

...

Netflix app saying I have an incompatible driver even though it's the latest and greatest from Nvidia

Ok, I take back what I said. You're an idiot.

 

[Rorschach120]

I could appreciate it if they had two separate versions of the OS:

One for everyday users who prefer closed platforms and metro UIs.... tablets.

One for software and engineering professionals that is more or less the same as 7 in the UI and open distribution method.

I won't deny that when I tested it my computer performed better. This doesn't make up for my points previously mentioned though.

Here's some bonus reading material: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/the_next_twenty_years_what_.php

 

[Krynn72]

MS is creating a closed distribution service like Apple.

...

Yes, they do allow you to create and distribute software as part of the old "desktop model"

I like your style, sir. Make your point, then disprove your point. Very classy. MS will not get rid of desktop applications. Not ever. Not unless they decide they want out of the PC operating system market and only want to make large ipad-likes. Windows 8 is not a step in that direction. You only ever even need to see the Metro UI once per day (at the start up), or maybe a few times more if you want to search for apps by typing. You dont need two versions of the OS to do what you want, this one version does both. As I suspected, you're simply ignorant of how the OS even works.

Here, read this. http://www.extremetech.com/computing/135762-living-with-the-windows-8-start-screen

That Gamasutra article by the way is a load of shit. You can still download and install programs completely separate from the MS Store.

 

[Rorschach120]

Both statements were true. The Gamasutra article is talking about what will happen down the road. I don't think you read the whole article though, there is more than one page. Check it out.

And to be clear I have W8 installed on one of my HDDs atm. I don't usually respond to personal presumptions but you are quite adamant on making it look like I know nothing about the OS. This is ironic seeing as I will be taking Operating Systems 352 in the spring so perhaps you are more correct than you think.

You claim you know what MS will do... You can hope for the best, but.. well you're a smart guy, you know the rest

 

[Krynn72]

It doesnt take a genius to see how bad an idea it would be to force Windows Store only apps (though maybe it does... get it? Apple Geniuses probably would like it... zing). Microsoft has people who are more intelligent than that. They'll lose a huge portion of the market if they were ever to do so, so as I said, they would only ever do it if they intended to leave that market. IF They were to ever do such a thing, then I of course would not support it, as I dont have any interest in such a system, and would look, most likely, to linux from then on. However, the suggestion that Windows 8 is doing this is completely ****ing bogus, and the insult you threw at the entire userbase as a result of you believing your bogus idea was totally misplaced. Windows 8 is not what you or your ilk are pretending it is. THAT is my point.

 

[Rorschach120]

You dont need two versions of the OS to do what you want, this one version does both. As I suspected, you're simply ignorant of how the OS even works.

Let me clarify a bit for you:

What MS has done is along the lines of selling two monkeys in the same cage.

Both monkeys are the opposite of the other. One of them likes other monkeys, the other hates other monkeys. One monkey is quite old and wrinkly while the other monkey is young and shiny.

MS decides to just leave the food in the cage and let the monkeys fight over it... Have you ever seen that episode of Planet Earth where there's a huge monkey fight? You can assume what happens next...

Ok, I digress... What I'm getting at is that if it were two separate products they would have to support both products or they ruin the purpose of having a second cage. When one monkey dies in the same cage as the other at least the younger monkey can eat that one. If MS showed that they were down for supporting both open and closed platforms separately then I would appreciate it. They have not though, they put two monkeys in one cage.

Feel free to hate on my monkey metaphor. I like monkeys.

 

[Rorschach120]

Answer this for me.

Why is Microsoft creating a closed software distribution platform?

ANSWER:

Spoiler

 

[Krynn72]

Answer this for me.

Why is Microsoft creating a closed software distribution platform?

This is a trick question. They're not!

Guess what I just did! I just downloaded and installed software without using the Windows Store! Turns out you can do that, despite all the misinformation out there suggesting otherwise! I even dd it using my Chrome install with all my normal plugins activated, despite all the misinformation suggesting that you wont be able to use fully-functional browsers other than IE! I even installed steam and was playing GAEMS.

MS made Windows Store for people who want to use it for the metro integration, but the rest of the functionality of Windows 7 is still perfectly intact. When shit goes Windows Store only because of Microsoft (and not of the third party's own initiative) then you can start hating on it without resistance from me. Until then, you're simply full of shit. This is a fully functional operating system that is not a closed platform.

Also, you should learn the art of not-double/triple-posting. Yous about ta get infraction'd.

 

[Rorschach120]

You have not answered my question. I'm not sure you understand. Developers have to follow a completely new set of APIs in order to be a part of the Windows Store, APIs which are not compatible with the 'desktop.' Microsoft doesn't just email developers like "Hey man, love your software. Mind if I put it on metro?" The developers have to write new code to implement their software into metro. Code that takes time and costs money.


The Windows Store is a CLOSED DISTRIBUTION PLATFORM (like Steam, remember PC gaming before?). They may have a separate system in place at the moment that precedes it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Why is it there? Why does it exist? Why did they make it? Comprede?

And, please, you are starting to sound more a like a child than me and I just posted a meme that says "Monkeys." I find that people tend to swear in place of not really knowing what to say.

 

[Krynn72]

You have not answered my question. I'm not sure you understand. Developers have to follow a completely new set of APIs in order to be a part of the Windows Store, APIs which are not compatible with the 'desktop.' Microsoft doesn't just email developers like "Hey man, love your software. Mind if I put it on metro?" The developers have to write new code to implement their software into metro. Code that takes time and costs money.


The Windows Store is a CLOSED DISTRIBUTION PLATFORM (like Steam, remember PC gaming before?). They may have a separate system in place at the moment that precedes it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Why is it there? Why does it exist? Why did they make it? Comprede?

Windows Store is a closed system, yes. But it is a optional component of Windows, just like Steam. And, just like Steam, it doesn't make the entire OS platform a closed system. If you want to change your earlier statements and only focus on Windows Store, then I wont disagree with you. It has some merit for casual PC users, but ultimately I dont see the need for Windows Store, and I can see how if it were mandatory then it would be a serious detriment. Look at my first post in this thread to see what I think of Windows RT, which makes Windows Store mandatory. But given that using it is OPTIONAL in Windows 8, it is irrelevant when discussing the capabilities of the OS or the intelligence level of those who chose to use said OS.

And, please, you are starting to sound more a like a child than me and I just posted a meme that says "Monkeys." I find that people tend to swear in place of not really knowing what to say.

You're new here, and don't know me very well, so I'll let this one slide.

 

[Rorschach120]

Okay. I'm done here then. You don't seem to understand a word I'm saying and then you come back with a very good argument for something that I did not say. Yes, I said you "haven't a clue." I did not mean so harshly originally but you have proved it just by talking about software which you don't seem to have any real knowledge on the creation or distribution of. I'm speaking at one level as if I were talking to fellow developers. You sound like someone who is blindly, and very immaturely, defending something that they just bought, and not interested in having a real discussion about the issue. I don't want to assume, but I get the feeling that you didn't think about any of this before buying it.

EDIT: Why..? That is what I asked. I don't think you have a real opinion on the matter and so that is why I feel you didn't think about anything. I'm starting to see that I have to be very clear here or else my words will be mix'n'matched to what you want to hear.

#2: OKay I'll be clear about something else... In order for an app to be part of Metro it has to be on the Windows Store. Metro apps are not backwards compatible. Nothing I've said retracts my earlier statement.

You're new here, and don't know me very well, so I'll let this one slide.

Haha, what a petty attempt to intimidate me.

 

[Krynn72]

Okay. I'm done here then. You don't seem to understand a word I'm saying and then you come back with a very good argument for something that I did not say. Yes, I said you "haven't a clue." I did not mean so harshly originally but you have proved it just by talking about software which you don't seem to have any real knowledge on the creation or distribution of. I'm speaking at one level as if I were talking to fellow developers. You sound like someone who is blindly, and very immaturely, defending something that they just bought, and not interested in having a real discussion about the issue. I don't want to assume, but I get the feeling that you didn't think about any of this before buying it.

EDIT: Why..? That is what I asked. I don't think you have a real opinion on the matter and so that is why I feel you didn't think about anything. I'm starting to see that I have to be very clear here or else my words will be mix'n'matched to what you want to hear.

#2: OKay I'll be clear about something else... In order for an app to be part of Metro it has to be on the Windows Store. Metro apps are not backwards compatible. Nothing I've said retracts my earlier statement.

What difference does it make why they're doing it? They're doing it to make money. SURPRISE they're selling stuff to make money, and are trying to find ways to make more money. But again, ITS IRRELEVANT to this OS because you can COMPLETELY ignore it. Who gives a shit if metro apps aren't backwards compatible? Anybody who wants their apps to be backwards compatible wont develop their software solely for Metro. IF you can easily, and completely ignore a bad thing with no detriment to yourself, then its not really an issue. I've already stated my opinion on Metro only shit. Again, I refer you to my first post in this thread. You really don't think I have an opinion on it, despite it being the very ****ing first thing I have said?

So instead of me repeating my opinion to answer your question again, let me ask you a question instead. Why is it such a big issue for you that a COMPLETELY OPTIONAL part of the OS is trying to make more money for the business that designed the OS, when said COMPLETELY OPTIONAL part of the OS restricts nothing for those who chose not to use it?

Also, lol @ intimidation.

 

[Rorschach120]

It does. It is happening faster and faster with Steam, you know what I am talking about. Companies started making their games both stand-alone and for Steam. Now there are more and more games that are exclusively available on Steam or other services. Even if you buy a copy in retail it still needs to be run on Steam, Origin, U-play. These platforms are becoming more and more popular even without being required. Window Store/ Metro UI is optional right now because there would be a huge out-rage if it wasn't. 3-5 years down the line there is only one direction that this will head. Do you really think the next version of Office will be a Win32 program?

The HUGE difference is that Steam has no control over the OS. Why do you think Valve is developing their games for Linux? Or all of the hate speech from Gabe?

 

[DEATHMASTER]

I for one disapprove of touch screen because it involves dirty human ape hands getting their lipids on pretty color screens.

 

[Shamrock]

I'm sorry Rorschach. I didn't mean it. I take back what I said. You didn't answer me question yet! Did the Ross Park MS pop up store open yet?

And also, to be fair, OSX has the Mac App Store or whatever it's called. You can download software from there or get it from the internet as well still. They just prompt you and say it's not verified or blah blah blah and you can still go ahead and install it if it's from a 'third-party'.

I don't really want to read through all of your arguments. I'm too tired to do that.

 

[ríomhaire]

Am I allowed to agree with both Roshach and Krynn? Windows 8 isn't the destruction of home computing as we know it but it's pretty obvious that Microsoft is testing the waters for a closed platform.

 

[Rorschach120]

I'm sorry Rorschach. I didn't mean it. I take back what I said. You didn't answer me question yet! Did the Ross Park MS pop up store open yet?

Me sorry too. I got carried away...

And I'm not living in the Burgh at the moment. I moved to FL a few months ago... Not sure if I should bother changing my location, I'll be back there pretty soon.

 

[xcellerate]

Harsh bro. Why are you even going to try out the Surface then? Especially the one thats $500, which is ONLY Metro stuff?

Well, while I don't think metro is optimized for a desktop, I do think it's a well designed tablet OS. So I'm going to at least give it a look.

 

[Krynn72]

Am I allowed to agree with both Roshach and Krynn? Windows 8 isn't the destruction of home computing as we know it but it's pretty obvious that Microsoft is testing the waters for a closed platform.

They're not testing the waters, they're jumping right in. Thats what Windows RT is. They're going to see how poorly received windows RT is, even on tablets, and thats probably going to be the end of it. I really dont think they're stupid enough to try and abandon open operating systems, they'd be giving up huge percentages of their markets to alternatives like Linux. Just like they're not stupid enough to do Windows RT without having a real OS available.

 

[xcellerate]

They're not testing the waters, they're jumping right in. Thats what Windows RT is. They're going to see how poorly received windows RT is, even on tablets, and thats probably going to be the end of it. I really dont think they're stupid enough to try and abandon open operating systems, they'd be giving up huge percentages of their markets to alternatives like Linux. Just like they're not stupid enough to do Windows RT without having a real OS available.

What really upsets me is they could have made this a damn near perfect OS, if they only enabled the start button. And I say 'enabled' because we know it's there, and we know it works. A few months ago you could edit a registry value that would put the start button back on the desktop, and it worked great. However microsoft quickly released a patch that disabled this registry value so people couldn't add the start button back and forced everybody to use metro.

The only complaint I hear about 8 is metro, and personally it's the only complaint I have also. What they need is an option in the control panel that:

* boots directly to the desktop
* adds a start button
* links the windows key to the start button

I would be sold. You would still be able to access metro by clicking in the lower left hand corner, but other than doing that no other program will put you into metro. That would be perfect.

 

[Rorschach120]

I get the feeling that would be like logging into Steam and not having a pop-up with the latest releases and deals (which I love). But, yeah it SEEMS like they are forcing it so that it doesn't get left in the dust.

 

[xcellerate]

I played with one earlier today, it was alright. The touch cover is crap, the type cover is just like a laptop though. It also has serious issues playing 720p or 1080p youtube videos, but 480 seems to run smoothly. I never thought about it before, but the kickstand isn't adjustable, and I'm a fairly tall guy so the viewing angle was a little weird.

 

[Shamrock]

I played with one earlier today, it was alright. The touch cover is crap, the type cover is just like a laptop though. It also has serious issues playing 720p or 1080p youtube videos, but 480 seems to run smoothly. I never thought about it before, but the kickstand isn't adjustable, and I'm a fairly tall guy so the viewing angle was a little weird.

....maybe you're a little weird...

That's my post for the day. See you guys tomorrow!

 

[Krynn72]

Newegg shipped it (windows 8 box) through DHL so even though its less than 170 miles away, its going to take 4 days to get here. DHL is the most worthless shipping service in the world. They should have just given it straight to USPS, would have been here next day.