True Realism in War

Blackthorn

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Realism is a term thrown around a lot in gaming these days, with each new FPS touting how much it nears itself to this goal. Call of Duty 4 has received many accolades for a realistic depiction of warfare, but as much I enjoyed the game, I'm a bit sceptical of whether it should really be held as a standard for immersive combat situations, and how much realism is ever gonna be viable in gaming. I don't mean of course total realism, as dying the moment you stepped into a battlefield would be no fun at all, but what I'm questioning is the effectiveness of the environments in delivering the real horrors of a battlefield.

The main way I feel this could be achieved is with civilian death, something I feel was a missed opportunity through much of CoD4. There was that gripping spectacle near the beginning, where you see through the eyes of the Arab nation's president as he bears witness to his country being overrun and his countrymen slain, but after this there's not a civilian in sight (except one old man and the faceless drivers of the vehicles in the last level). If a game truly wants to shake up the player, it should have them engage in combat in areas amongst civilian life, where it's hard to differentiate friend from foe. This is the way modern war has become, and the direction I wish CoD4 had gone in, at least in one level.

Recently MGS4, though in an even more fictional conflict than CoD4, impressed me with an intense and nerve-testing tour through a Middle-Eastern warzone in the first act. You may be somewhat of a supersoldier, and of course there's not a civilian in sight, but the constant intensity surpassed CoD4 for me, with bullets zipping overhead and explosions filling the streets, and the camera lens, with grit. Kojima said he was inspired by Infinity Ward's project, and it shows. But as thrilling as that act was, it wasn't the harrowing experience I'm waiting for.

I find that sections of Half-Life 2, though in far more far-fetched circumstances than either of the above, offered a far more convincing feel of urban combat environments. Valve has excellent use of familiar sights and shapes that remind us of various acts of oppression throughout history. There's techniques in use that I don't even notice, or couldn't probably understand. There isn't the constant, ear-drum shattering noise of CoD4, or the astounding visuals of MGS4, but whenever I play through City 17 I regularly get shivers down my spine.

Now I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this matter. Can the realism I'm imagining be achieved in games? What other games have come close? And will any developer ever be brave enough to do it?
 
Have you played Armed Assault or Operation Flashpoint? Those games are great examples of war simulators. You can't see shit because everyone's so far away, and you're lucky if you're able to take down a handful of guys per mission. Unless we're talking about some of the special ops ones in Operation Flashpoint.

**** i love those games.
 
Yea Flashpoint so good.

They take in to account how far you are away to time when the sound waves would hit you, so if you see an explosion like 2 miles away, you'll see it happen before you hear it based on real world physics, that's how realistic it is.

Actually, it's ridiculously realistic, yet one of the best games ever, you die in like 1-3 hits.
 
Yeah. It's awesome actually. Especially that mission where you're stuck in the forest and have to steal a civilians car while being chased by tanks. that shit is awesome. Terrifying and awesome.
 
I feel the same way OP, not just in war environments, but realism in general. No game has really pulled it off anywhere close to what I often imagine can be done. There are good ones out there, but they always leave a lot to be desired. I'm sure that developers have always had good ideas for realism, but just have to keep making compromises and scrap stuff due to time/resource limitations.
It's definitely possible to achieve the kind of realism I'm thinking of, but to make a full game out of it would take a lot of money & time.
I'd love to see just a tech demo or something, showing how realistic you can actually make a game. Could be a shooter demo, racing, flight, fighting, anything. FPS would be most interesting to me, though.
 
We will never get a "true" war game, for a couple reasons.
First, if it were a true war simulator, it would not be a game. Games are meant to be fun and war (IRL) is not fun.
Secondly, the "harrowing experience" you are looking for will never be met by a simulator. I believe the most terrifying thing about fighting a war is the fact that you could lose your life. This is not possible with a simulator. With a game or a simulator, you do not have real friends fighting next to you, and if your in-game allies die, it is of little or no consequence to you.
 
Yea it's pretty obvious you can't simulate some things.

For everything else, there's mastercard.
 
Though I see where you're coming from with your topic, you must realize there's a fine line between realism and spoiling the fun. It has always been somewhat, sort of standoff dilemma developers must obey, and do the rope-walking.
IMHO, the game I thought is as close to as the real thing was MOHAA; There are quite few missions, if you played "Hard" a single hit of small arms would literally take your breath away: Places like the Snipers Last Stand and the U-Boat.

Take Care.
 
When most people say "realism" they mean "believability."
 
True realism on a video game would be completely boring. Take the most exciting combat day of the entire Iraqi conflict and you'll realize that it's terribly boring when you realize it's only happening in a video game.

I want rockets bursting over my head, god dammit, and I want impossibly brave heroics.
 
Yea, "True realism" is obviously not going to be fun.

What I want is a certain level of 'realistic detail,' I guess you could call it, in sound, visuals, and movement/environment interaction/physics.
Lots of games add in some details here and there, but none go full out.
Obviously one would have to design the game to have this realism while still maintaining fun/engaging gameplay mechanics. Probably not an easy task :\
 
Games will never be 100% realistic, neither in presentation nor gameplay.

Would you really want to see a 100% realistic depiction of a 7.62mm round entering a human's head?
 
I could see some completely realistic games being fun. If it's a fun activity to begin with. I don't think war qualifies though. Though it could be exciting and incredibly emotional, that's for sure. Running through a war-torn city with friends, taking cover and feeling threatened as if it was real...

-I'd like to play a completely realistic boxing game where it's so real, the only way I can tell it's a game is because it doesn't hurt to get punched.

-Driving a real race car or racing motorcycle would be fun for me, since I would enjoy these things in real life.

The cool part about it being a game would be that the money, required qualifications, and risk wouldn't be involved.
 
A perfectly realistic game would actually be a lot of fun. Since its still a game, there are no real consequences. Theres so much stuff to do in the real world, but we dont do it because we dont wanna die.
 
There's one game, (and although it's technically antiquated by today's standards) that depicts realistic damage when shot. Soldier of Fortune:Retro Helix

You can literally blast someone to gravy with a machine gun whilst viewing everything from intestines to brains, and limbs can be severed with a shotgun blast.
Clothing tears apart from repeated shots and becomes soaked with blood too.

Too bad the AI and physics aren't that great anymore.


That's one technical holdback tbh that keeps many war games from becoming seemingly real, and SoF2 was way ahead of it's time as far as that goes.
I remember the first time playing that game when Perfect Dark for N64 was still popular. PD just seemed like a paintball war in comparison. (no damage, just little red spots)
 
Play Operation Flashpoint, best war simulator ever made and as realistic a game I have ever come across.
 
There's one game, (and although it's technically antiquated by today's standards) that depicts realistic damage when shot. Soldier of Fortune:Retro Helix

You can literally blast someone to gravy with a machine gun whilst viewing everything from intestines to brains, and limbs can be severed with a shotgun blast.
Clothing tears apart from repeated shots and becomes soaked with blood too.

Your definition of "Realistic Damage" seems to be pulled directly from Kill Bill :|
 
A lot of people seem to have misconstrued my meaning. I said in the first paragraph that I don't mean realism in the gameplay, I'm talking about the effectiveness of the environments and how they are depicted.

I've tried Operation Flashpoint before, but I didn't enjoy it much. It was only a brief play, but the environments felt strangely empty. I may give them another go, but first impressions didn't immerse me.
 
In later missions those environments fill up much bigger troop numbers aswell as big tanks and helicopter gunships. Any game that strives for enough realism to include the speed of sound accurately modelled ingame deserves a once over!
 
That said, I've just watched the video on another thread for Operation Flashpoint 2. It sure looks nice, so if they pull that off well I'll just wait for that.
 
Your definition of "Realistic Damage" seems to be pulled directly from Kill Bill :|
Actually, it was straight from Soldier of Fortune:Retro Helix. ;)

The level of "damage" realism in that game is still disturbing to me to this day.

Some older games back then actually accomplished a high degree of realism without super-fancy shader effects, despite cliched AI techniques (i.e. wait behind the door and blast them as they enter) as well as a dated physics engine.
 
Actually, it was straight from Soldier of Fortune:Retro Helix. ;)

The level of "damage" realism in that game is still disturbing to me to this day.

Some older games back then actually accomplished a high degree of realism without super-fancy shader effects, despite cliched AI techniques (i.e. wait behind the door and blast them as they enter) as well as a dated physics engine.

Speaking of SOF2, has anyone heard about any news about Wolfenstein Quake Con, Like hands-on, reviews, anything like that, other than those couple of ads?

I didn't like the first SOF, but I loved the second installment (Double Helix), specially MP. I was really hooked on SOF2 MP until recently. SOF2 MP was the best game I have ever played. I also belonged to one of the starting clans (Devils).

Sorry for the hijack.
 
Wolfenstein was covered in the recent PCgamer I think.
 
Speaking of SOF2, has anyone heard about any news about Wolfenstein Quake Con, Like hands-on, reviews, anything like that, other than those couple of ads?

I didn't like the first SOF, but I loved the second installment (Double Helix), specially MP. I was really hooked on SOF2 MP until recently. SOF2 MP was the best game I have ever played. I also belonged to one of the starting clans (Devils).

Sorry for the hijack.
Oh, not "Retro Helix". I must be thinking about another game then. I did mean Soldier of Fortune 2 though. Whatever the subtitle is.
 
Oh, not "Retro Helix". I must be thinking about another game then. I did mean Soldier of Fortune 2 though. Whatever the subtitle is.

The second installment was call: Soldier Of Fortune II (Double Helix). :)
 
I have found that hyper-realistic games aren't really fun. Take the Resistance And Liberation Alpha Demo for instance. You move really slow, it takes forever to get from point A to point B, turning 360 degrees takes forever, you have no HUD, you aren't shown who you've killed, who you were killed by, etc. You die in one shot with a pistol, you can't pick up the enemy's weapons because in real life, you wouldn't know how to operate them, and only two people can have submachine guns because there's a ranking system. On top of that, you can get your weapon shot out of your hand. You're usually killed before you can pick it up.

I don't know. Give me some fast-paced unrealistic action any day.

Like when Red Orchestra first came out for UT2003, it was painfully slow and so boring. They sped it up just a tad if I recall correctly and it was amazing after that. You have to find a happy medium with realism. Too realistic and it slows the game way down. Too unrealistic and it turns into a frag fest like Quake. It's tough to find the right balance.
 
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