U.S. debt tops $14trillion

[No Limit]

Virus, only you would derail a discussion about our budget deficit to a discussion about what the absolute 100% correct definition of social services is. Do you not see what a serious douchebag that makes you?

This will be my last reply to you in this thread, have a nice day.

 

[CptStern]

ya I for one would like not to get bogged down with hair splitting in every single thread. this is why we cant have nice things

 

[VirusType2]

you may want to read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_security

The words are not interchangeable. Are you a moron?

Virus, only you would derail a discussion about our budget deficit to a discussion about what the absolute 100% correct definition of social services is. Do you not see what a serious douchebag that makes you?

WHO IS DERAILING IT? I made a simple correction and you're the one who's derailed it.

Have a shitty day.

 

[CptStern]

The words are not interchangeable. Are you a moron?

it is in canada. my mistake for not using the american vernacular. your anger is misplaced and kinda says more about you than it does me

 

[Escaep]

I feel a lot of money could be saved by REVAMPING Welfare. Millions if not billions of dollars a year go to poor families who use the money to buy drugs/cigarette/alcohol and sit on their ass not trying to make their lives better. I hear stories from my mom all the time about getting patients (she is a l&d nurse) who are unemployed, on welfare, smoke, and have 8 kids. I'm for helping out the people who genuinely need it if they're trying to find work/have multiple jobs but still struggle to make ends meet. I'm NOT for having money go to people who are unemployed, not trying to find work, and pop out a baby ever year or two.

 

[No Limit]

Stern, there is no specific definition for social services in america, I'm sure it is no different from Canada. It is an umbrella term which social security along with other social programs fall under.

I feel a lot of money could be saved by REVAMPING Welfare. Millions if not billions of dollars a year go to poor families who use the money to buy drugs/cigarette/alcohol and sit on their ass not trying to make their lives better. I hear stories from my mom all the time about getting patients (she is a l&d nurse) who are unemployed, on welfare, smoke, and have 8 kids. I'm for helping out the people who genuinely need it if they're trying to find work/have multiple jobs but still struggle to make ends meet. I'm NOT for having money go to people who are unemployed, not trying to find work, and pop out a baby ever year or two.

You want to give us some specifics. What welfare programs are you talking about?

 

[Escaep]

You want to give us some specifics. What welfare programs are you talking about?

I think its Public Welfare, not sure exactly.

 

[CptStern]

how do people on WELFARE afford healthcare?

 

[Escaep]

how do people on WELFARE afford healthcare?

They can't.

 

[No Limit]

I think its Public Welfare, not sure exactly.

Huh? You just went on this rant about how lazy "some" poor people are but you don't know any specific welfare programs they might use?

 

[Ridge]

how do people on WELFARE afford healthcare?

The same way illegals do. Every time somebody gets the least little bit sick, they go to the ER for free diagnosis, and are then sent home with a small amount of whatever OTC drug would help to stop the illness.

And I agree with Escaep, that the programs need serious redesign and to curb the misuse of these programs.

In California, you can use your food stamp cards at the casinos! HOW IS THAT THE HELP THAT WAS INTENDED WHEN THESE PROGRAMS WERE CREATED?

 

[No Limit]

Yeah, what a picnic going to the ER is. Assuming you have 20 hours to kill. But I guess in your ideal world it would be better that is someone has a sickness or gets injured they just deal with it on their own?

You got a link for the claim that you can use food stamp cards at casinos.

 

[Escaep]

Yeah, what a picnic going to the ER is. Assuming you have 20 hours to kill. But I guess in your ideal world it would be better that is someone has a sickness or gets injured they just deal with it on their own?

If you are in labor and you go to a hospital I'm pretty sure the hospital has to take you OR find transportation (aka probably an ambulance) to get you to another hospital. And for your last sentence, you are jumping to conclusions. Pretty sure that isn't what Ridge was saying.

 

[No Limit]

Going in to labor? What are you talking about? Yes, what you say is true. Because we have laws that if we have sick people in this country and they go to an ER they have to get treated even if they can't pay. Would you like to change those laws? How so?

Also, first off I was responding to Ridge and I'm willing to bet that is his ideal world, but I was typing fast and left out that he only feels that way about poor people that can't afford healthcare, my bad. I'm sure he doesn't feel that way about everyone, just the poor.

Second, you didn't answer my actual question to you.

 

[CptStern]

The same way illegals do. Every time somebody gets the least little bit sick, they go to the ER for free diagnosis, and are then sent home with a small amount of whatever OTC drug would help to stop the illness.

ya that wouldnt work for a broken leg/heart disease

And I agree with Escaep, that the programs need serious redesign and to curb the misuse of these programs.

In California, you can use your food stamp cards at the casinos! HOW IS THAT THE HELP THAT WAS INTENDED WHEN THESE PROGRAMS WERE CREATED?

how is the fault of SOCIAL SECURITY programs if casinos accept food stamps? and what's the stats of misuse of the welfare programs in comparison to people who use it properly? it's obvious that it's a fraction of those who use it as it was intended or else the program would have been redisned by now

If you are in labor and you go to a hospital I'm pretty sure the hospital has to take you OR find transportation (aka probably an ambulance) to get you to another hospital.

would you rather the hospital allow the baby/mother to die out of fiscal concerns?

 

[VirusType2]

In California, you can use your food stamp cards at the casinos! HOW IS THAT THE HELP THAT WAS INTENDED WHEN THESE PROGRAMS WERE CREATED?

Where did you get this misinformation?

You think you can gamble with food stamps? You can't even buy 'prepared foods' (for example a sandwich or cake) from the grocery store, and obviously you can't even use them for fast food or restaurants.

 

[The Monkey]

Right-wingers in all countries have been spreading these lies about lazy welfare people who receive a ton of cash for lying on their backs for centuries. It's objective in keeping poor people miserable and rich people happy has been very successful. I can't tell you how tired I am of it, and that people still buy the bullshit.

 

[No Limit]

The funny thing about the casino thing is it's actually true. Because these food stamp cards in california work as debit cards you can cash them in casinos. As soon as this was found the state implemented changes and the people that did this were a tiny fraction of overall recipients.

I think EBT should be set up so you can only purchase food with it, as is the case in most states. But even if you cash these in at a casino all you are doing is shifting money from your food budget in to casinos meaning you will simply have to pay for your food down the road. Not that big of a deal but still shouldn't be allowed to happen.

 

[Warped]

ways to get some money back

drug test those on wellfare
end war on drugs
end war in afghanistan
10% income tax for everyone
slow down immigrant rush into us. its at historic highs
etc

 

[No Limit]

ways to get some money back

drug test those on wellfare

What kind of welfare?

 

[Ridge]

ya that wouldnt work for a broken leg/heart disease



how is the fault of SOCIAL SECURITY programs if casinos accept food stamps? and what's the stats of misuse of the welfare programs in comparison to people who use it properly? it's obvious that it's a fraction of those who use it as it was intended or else the program would have been redisned by now

How are you that dense that you say it is the casino that allows the card use, then immediately says that the cards are limited to certain things? The STATE GOVERNMENT allowed them to be used in casino ATMs...THAT gets you cash, which is untraceable...

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/24/local/la-me-welfare-casinos-20100624

What kind of welfare?

All of them.

If you are on government money, the government has the right to know you aren't using those funds for illicit goods. Just the same way an employer can make you take a random piss test, so should the government.

ways to get some money back

drug test those on wellfare
end war on drugs
end war in afghanistan
10% income tax for everyone
slow down immigrant rush into us. its at historic highs
etc

I actually agree with this 100%.

 

[No Limit]

All of them.

If you are on government money, the government has the right to know you aren't using those funds for illicit goods. Just the same way an employer can make you take a random piss test, so should the government.

So like what? Unemployment benefits? I've payed in to unemployment insurance since 16, I never used the benefit once. Does that mean if I lose my job for whatever reason in 6 years I will be required to submit to a drug test for the government on a regular basis? You think that's fair?

What examples of welfare programs do you have that you can use the benefits for drugs as you suggested above?

 

[VirusType2]

Drug testing welfare recipients

Then what? Charge them with drug use, send them to court where they can't pay fines (or pay them with welfare?) and if they can't afford to pay their fines, they get sent to prison where homes and families are destroyed, where they can become a further tax burden in the "meat grinder" AKA prison.

Random drug testing of welfare recipients is scientifically and medically unsound:

* Welfare recipients are no more likely to use drugs than the rest of the population.


Random drug testing of welfare recipients is fiscally irresponsible:

* Drug testing is expensive.


Random drug testing of welfare recipients is likely unconstitutional under both the U.S. Constitution and some state constitutions

http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform/drug-testing-public-assistance-recipients-condition-eligibility

 

[Ridge]

OR, they have their welfare funds reduced or revoked.

 

[No Limit]

OR, they have their welfare funds reduced or revoked.

So agian, you think that recipients of unemployment benefits should be subject to regular drug tests by the United States government?

 

[Ridge]

So like what? Unemployment benefits? I've payed in to unemployment insurance since 16, I never used the benefit once. Does that mean if I lose my job for whatever reason in 6 years I will be required to submit to a drug test for the government on a regular basis? You think that's fair?

What examples of welfare programs do you have that you can use the benefits for drugs as you suggested above?

Unemployment insurance does not last forever. It lasts until it runs out. Which is now about 2 years from when you file. Also, it is paid in to by yourself and your employer.

I've worked many jobs where acceptable payment was EBT cards. On more than one occasion, I've seen people who use those buy products with them, then come back at a later time and try to get a cash refund on them. That is just one example.

Just because you and I follow the honor system, does not mean everyone does. It's saddening to see people try to abuse the system to pay for their vices.

So agian, you think that recipients of unemployment benefits should be subject to regular drug tests by the United States government?

Hey, worker's comp can be cut or cancelled if drug or alcohol use is apparent in a piss test following an on the job accident....why not other programs?

 

[VirusType2]

OR, they have their welfare funds reduced or revoked.

There are bigger fish to fry here (better ways to save money). Everyone picking on the poor people... Like I've said, by a long shot, the US pays out less to those in poverty than any other first world country (or something to that effect, can't find the source at the moment).

 

[No Limit]

Hey, worker's comp can be cut or cancelled if drug or alcohol use is apparent in a piss test following an on the job accident....why not other programs?

So why not just set up a government agency where we drug test everyone? Cool? Becuase your argument seems to be if it's okay to piss test people in cases of injury under workmens comp then its okay to piss test them ever other time. Right?

Like I said, I payed in to unemployment insurance since I was 16, never cashed in on it. And that will probably continue to be the case for the large majority of my life (knock on wood). Yet when I fall on hard times you are advocating the government coming in and drug testing me because I am finally collecting benefits I payed in to all of my life? You must really love freedom.

 

[Sheepo]

I agree with the Afghanistan bit, but I also think we should seriously decrease our presence in Iraq, although that easily fell under etc. I agree about the war on drugs. I can't speak on the issue of welfare, I really don't know enough about it (though I do know it's pretty ****ing cheap in the grand scheme of things). But how could trying to control immigration result in anything but more taxes? I mean, you spend money trying to stop them, that's money. You spend more, that's more money. What we need to do is seriously invest in a system of allowing Mexicans to become legal immigrants that isn't the biggest bureaucratic cluster**** known to man. As of right now, I don't blame a single one of them for crossing the border.

 

[Ridge]

I agree with the Afghanistan bit, but I also think we should seriously decrease our presence in Iraq, although that easily fell under etc. I agree about the war on drugs. I can't speak on the issue of welfare, I really don't know enough about it (though I do know it's pretty ****ing cheap in the grand scheme of things). But how could trying to control immigration result in anything but more taxes? I mean, you spend money trying to stop them, that's money. You spend more, that's more money. What we need to do is seriously invest in a system of allowing Mexicans to become legal immigrants that isn't the biggest bureaucratic cluster**** known to man. As of right now, I don't blame a single one of them for crossing the border.

The US is all but out of Iraq..the last soldiers leave this year.
Controlling immigration means less money spent on fraud, stolen identities, worthless funding to ICE and Homeland Security, among other things.

Why can't the Mexicans live in their country?

 

[VirusType2]

Why can't the Mexicans live in their country?

Because their ****ing country sucks. That's why.

 

[Ridge]

Because their ****ing country sucks. That's why.

Then I think they should try to make it better. You don't win a war by running away.

 

[VirusType2]

Then I think they should try to make it better. You don't win a war by running away.

Trying to make it better is good.

The minimum wage there is about $4 per day. They aren't running, they are leaving. What if you could multiply what you make times 25 or 50, by moving a bit? I would have left a long time ago.

EDIT: Instead of getting some random number from some random source... According to Wikipedia, the difference is about 8.8 times greater minimum wage (on average) in the US. (I wasn't comparing minimum wage since a lot of Mexicans get labor jobs here, which might start at double minimum wage).

 

[Krynn72]

Haha, Ridge doesn't know what it means to be a refugee.

 

[GreatEmperor]

it is in canada. my mistake for not using the american vernacular. your anger is misplaced and kinda says more about you than it does me

Youre the one constantly bringing up news stories about hick America from the comforts of hickier Canada and saying "only in America" is that right? So you can understand how everyone would think you an expert on America, right?

But the biggest slice of the pie is Medicare Medicaid, basically insurance and pharmaceutical companies setting the price to whatever they want and charging the government, social security is absolutely good and raiding it would be just adding more disaster like they have for a while

 

[kineaesth]

Is it bad that out of everything wrong with this thread, the thing that annoys me most is all the god damn double and triple posting?

What's wrong with you people!?

Please please use this button

 

[Sparta]

But (one of) the biggest slice(s) of the pie is Medicare Medicaid, basically insurance and pharmaceutical companies setting the price to whatever they want and charging the government

Which is why further health-care reform is all the more important. If the U.S. could actually regulate and set the limit on prices of pharmaceutical drugs, like we do in Australia, the price of drugs could drop to as low as 1/3 of what they are now. Australia, Canada, U.K. and many other nations do exactly that, and because of that single measure, health insurance and health care is dramatically cheaper in those countries.

That alone would save an untold fortune.

This law/regulation would also have the added bonuses of decreasing the amount of mentally ill swamping the prison system and reducing the cost of running the prison system. Since the price of pharmaceutical drugs in the U.S. is so expensive, some mentally ill people often turn to crime in order to afford the medication that can help their psychosis, or they end up committing crimes naturally because they go off their meds once they can't afford them.

Controlling the price of drugs would likely decrease the influx of mentally ill criminals, saving the state and federal governments money, while stopping U.S. prisons from being the biggest mental health facilities in the country.

 

[No Limit]

The US is all but out of Iraq..the last soldiers leave this year.
Controlling immigration means less money spent on fraud, stolen identities, worthless funding to ICE and Homeland Security, among other things.

Why can't the Mexicans live in their country?

So you want to stop illegal immigration while also stopping or greatly decreasing funding for ICE and homeland security? How exactly would this work?

Also, how high do you think food prices should go before you rethink your stance on illegal immigration? Crops don't pick themselves for free, you know?

 

[CptStern]

How are you that dense that you say it is the casino that allows the card use, then immediately says that the cards are limited to certain things? The STATE GOVERNMENT allowed them to be used in casino ATMs...THAT gets you cash, which is untraceable...

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/24/local/la-me-welfare-casinos-20100624

did you actually read your source?

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who learned of the issue when asked to comment for this story, promised to take immediate action.

"We have instructed our vendors to prohibit these cards from being accepted at ATMs located in casinos and card rooms," Schwarzenegger spokesman Aaron McLear said Wednesday. "It is reprehensible that anyone would use taxpayer money for anything other than its intended purpose."

you make it sound like the state made it that the cards could be used at casinos. an atm is an atm. again how is it the welfare program's fault that people use the cards at casinos?

Why can't the Mexicans live in their country?

I'm sure millions of native americans are saying the same thing about you and your kind. go back to ..wherever it is you came from

 

[Sheepo]

The US is all but out of Iraq..the last soldiers leave this year.
Controlling immigration means less money spent on fraud, stolen identities, worthless funding to ICE and Homeland Security, among other things.

First off, 'controlling illegal immigration' is absurdly vague. We might actually agree on this issue, and I wouldn't know it. But I'm pretty sure what you mean is to completely prevent illegal immigration thereby preventing fraud, stolen identities, and worthless funding. Firstly, those first two things are symptoms of having legal and illegal citizens alike, secondly, preventing illegal immigration is what causes that 'worthless funding'. I really don't understand your logic here. The border currently costs billions of dollars of technology, infrastructure, and manpower to maintain, and it's not been effective in stopping illegal immigration. To actually bring an end to illegal immigration could only cost more money, ignoring the fact that it's virtually impossible. At no point will the mission ever be done. We'd have to set up a system and maintain it. Forever.

Why can't the Mexicans live in their country?

The land of oppurtunity: only open between 1492 and 1920?