Ugh. I got zerged for the first time in years.

[Raziaar]

So my cousins are over for the weekend... I set up a four player lan for us. It's very makeshift, since we only have my computer, my brother's computer... their computer, and my brother's laptop. So we decided to play starcraft. I haven't played it in around 5-6 years.

It takes FOREVER for me to get them able to see the server. I don't know why. It kept showing the server, then it disappeared. Only my brother's computer was then able to set it up so we could see it. It's frusterating me, and it will again, because I had to really change around the router configuration for it to all work.

Anyways... I suck, and my brother sucks. My one cousin is halfway decent, and my other cousin is pretty damn good. We play a few games, I lose early on of course to the good cousin, who dominates the map. Then we play one as a team, us four against four AI... we get stomped hard... then we play us four against two AI... we defeat them fairly easy but with enough challenge to make it fun.

But before we went to bed... that real good cousin plays against me and my youngest cousin. He's just six years old, and isn't good with computers or games that much. But... me and him teamed up cause I figure we'd be able to beat the third cousin. We're playing... and I think I'm doing pretty good... but my cousin comes swarming in eventually with roughly 80 zerglings. No lie. My units and base are destroyed in about 1 minute flat.

So i'm out, and my little six year old cousin is sitting at my computer, moving the mouse furiously around, building his defenses. Sort of turtling up. About five minutes later, my cousin comes roaring in, and my little cousin's defense manage to destroy 95% of his his attacking forces, the remainder wiping out his base. I was shocked and impressed that the little guy did better than me. I got 13 kills(even though I had like 30 guys... his swarm killed my guys without htem getting a chance to fight back), my enemy with around 120 kills... and my awesome littlest cousin managed to get 83 kills. He nearly obliterated that huge zerg swarm before they destroyed his base.

He did better than me.

The point of this long, rambling, nonsensical thread? I'm tired, i'm going to bed... and i'm upset that such weak creatures, zerglings... can be so powerful. I never did really like starcraft for that reason.

I can't wait to show them supreme commander, when they have a computer that can play it well. No longer will those huge swarms of fairly insignificant units be able to do so much damage. In supreme commander, if you try something like that... you're asking to be stomped all over. I've even destroyed massive strong armies several times over before being worn down in supreme commander... so it should give him a taste of what a real FPS will be.

I'm not dissing starcraft, even though I don't like it. I just think supreme commander is, and will be better.

 

[bigburpco]

Hamachi FTW; no dicking around with routers!

I think your little cousin would own me completely in an RTS. I suck ass at them.

 

[Raziaar]

Hamachi FTW; no dicking around with routers!

I think your little cousin would own me completely in an RTS. I suck ass at them.

Actually Himachi wasn't working either. All of us had access to the internet, but Himachi wasn't working. That was my 'last shot'... to get it to work, but it didn't. Until I realized that on my brother's computer was working as a host.

I had my computer in the dmz and everything. I am no stranger to oddball router configurations, but this was just not working.

 

[15357]

Uh, what was your race, and what did you do before being swarmed?

 

[Raziaar]

Uh, what was your race, and what did you do before being swarmed?

Ugh, that's the last thing I need right now... a South Korean lecturing me on my Starcraft play style. <3 numbers.

I thought I was doing pretty good. I was zerg as well(my allied 6 year old cousin terran), and I had around 20 zerglings, and around 15-20 hydralisks when I was swarmed. I was in the process of creating my overlords into transports. They were finished with that, and speed... before my cousin zerged me. I pitted all my hydralisks and zerglings against his 80 or so... but mine died and only did 13 deaths. I guess his zerlings were better than mine. In addition to what I was doing, I was expanding my base and upgrading technologies. Had upgraded melee's and ranged and stuff.

I was also playing entirely on the laptop, so I had the laptop keyboard to contend with, and the laptop build in mousepad. I thought I did pretty good all things considered, with my years of rustiness(I never was that great), and playing on the laptop.

They're spending the night, so i'm getting some other games set up for us to play tomorrow, and possibly future times. Age of Empires 2, and Age of Mythology. Should be fun!

I wish we could play the supreme commander demo, but the laptop and their computer quite frankly, suck. The laptop being moreso.

Any other good reccomendations for future games? Relatively old ones, so all computers can pretty much guarantee use them. I'm contemplating warcraft 2 as well, as that game is ace... and we haven't played it in years.

 

[Operational]

A few points Raziaar

The fact that the weakest unit, the zergling, is still useful in nearly every stage of the game makes, IMO, Starcraft a better game not worse.

Saying Supreme Commander is better before the game is out seems a little premature.

I'm no Starcraft king but it sounds like you lost because you didn't do any recon - you have to keep an eye on your enemy and adjust your strategy accordingly. Your Cousin did better because he knew what to expect.
Also if your Cousin (the winner) had that many more units than you it probably mean he had a better economy - so more miners or a secondary resource base. That or you weren't spending the money you had - a general tip for Starcraft (indeed any RTS) is to spend, spend, spend - if you have 500 minerals in the bank then its 500 minerals wasted.

 

[15357]

Ugh, that's the last thing I need right now... a South Korean lecturing me on my Starcraft play style. <3 numbers.

I thought I was doing pretty good. I was zerg as well(my allied 6 year old cousin terran),

Oh, ok. I don't play zerg, it's rather hard for me. D:

and I had around 20 zerglings, and around 15-20 hydralisks when I was swarmed. I was in the process of creating my overlords into transports. They were finished with that, and speed... before my cousin zerged me.

Minutes passed, and which map? How many hatcheries?

I pitted all my hydralisks and zerglings against his 80 or so... but mine died and only did 13 deaths. I guess his zerlings were better than mine. In addition to what I was doing, I was expanding my base and upgrading technologies. Had upgraded melee's and ranged and stuff.

Zergling swarms can be very hard.....

I was also playing entirely on the laptop, so I had the laptop keyboard to contend with, and the laptop build in mousepad. I thought I did pretty good all things considered, with my years of rustiness(I never was that great), and playing on the laptop.

D: D: D: Laptop? D: D: D:

Any other good reccomendations for future games? Relatively old ones, so all computers can pretty much guarantee use them. I'm contemplating warcraft 2 as well, as that game is ace... and we haven't played it in years.

I loved warcraft2! But never got around to playing it nowadays....

 

[Beerdude26]

You should try out Insane (review).

It's loads of fun on a LAN
And it's only like 130 megs, so it is easily "acquirable".

 

[Raziaar]

A few points Raziaar

The fact that the weakest unit, the zergling, is still useful in nearly every stage of the game makes, IMO, Starcraft a better game not worse.

Saying Supreme Commander is better before the game is out seems a little premature.

I'm no Starcraft king but it sounds like you lost because you didn't do any recon - you have to keep an eye on your enemy and adjust your strategy accordingly. Your Cousin did better because he knew what to expect.
Also if your Cousin (the winner) had that many more units than you it probably mean he had a better economy - so more miners or a secondary resource base. That or you weren't spending the money you had - a general tip for Starcraft (indeed any RTS) is to spend, spend, spend - if you have 500 minerals in the bank then its 500 minerals wasted.

I found out where his base was about a minute before he invaded. It was an island map.

also.... I've played supreme commander... I know already it's better than what I remembered starcraft to be :-P

As for the zerglings. It's the fact that the weakest unit can just be spammed to win, not that they're not useless. That can't happen in supreme commander, unless you're playing an immobile player. All he basically built were things to fly his guys over, and zerglings. heh. I watched his replay and he had them spawning like mad in his base. Those things take out tanks fast!

 

[Operational]

Mmmm. Maybe you should have started recon earlier. On small maps you can send your very first overload out for recon.
It still sounds like an economy problem - did you save the replay? Then you could watch and see what he did differently.

Supreme Commander does look interesting - I don't have the quota at the moment to download the beta though .

 

[Raziaar]

My cousin saved the replay on my brothers computer.

 

[CyberPitz]

My cousin saved the replay on my brothers computer.

To me it sounds like you didn't have enough production. He probably expanded his base out and had more resources...He probably had at least 3 hatcheries pumping out nothing but zerglings. it was an island map, and you didn't have any sunkens did ya?

 

[<RJMC>]

thats what I like of starcraft,the more small and weak unit can be very powerfull

 

[CyberPitz]

thats what I like of starcraft,the more small and weak unit can be very powerfull

Ahh yes...gogo cracklings. Upped speed+attack speed = omfgwtf

 

[Raziaar]

I already said i suck at the game... that's not in question. i didn't quite know what I needed to build next.

It's just the fact that those little zergling guys are just way too powerful.

But, that's starcraft I guess... where spamming nothing but the same unit can get you a win. :E

 

[Puzzlemaker]

Razier, I think starcraft did a much better job balancing units then supcom... I have been playing both.

In starcraft, large armies generally help you win. It has nothing to do with spamming. If the other person knows what he is doing and scouts, then you can easily create a couple of units to counter them.

The counter for large armies is a large army, FYI. If he is able to get more resources and men then you, well, it isn't good. Thats the same for ANY RTS, including supreme commander.

The thing about starcraft is, the lower tech units can be upgraded so they are still a viable force. And all units have a counter. But the thing I like about starcraft so much is, that counter is not overpowered.

In supreme commander, the units counters, such as anti-air guns, are overpowered. 40 bombers can't take out some anti-air guns. Same with the destroyers anti-missle crap; no missles can hit them, making them invulnerable to sub's or missle launchers.

In starcraft, all units can hit each other to some degree, meaning that if you don't have a counter to a certain unit, you can still kill it, even if its a little harder. And, if you do have the counter, it can still kill you, even if its a little harder.

A good example of this is anti-air units versus air units, like a missle turret versus some wraiths. The wraiths can still fight, and win. But the missle turret does do a lot of damage.

The one thing about supreme commander is it seems to rock-paper-scissor like. I would like to see the specific counters to units be... toned down a tad. Large forces of bombers should be able to take down some anti-air, while likewise normal forces should be able to take pot-shots at bombers.

 

[Raziaar]

I had a sizeable army I thought. around 40 units... 20 zerglings, and 20 hydralisks. I woulda thought they'd of at least done a 1:1 kill death ratio. But no... they did a 1:4 ratio

They had upgrades too!

 

[Puzzlemaker]

I had a sizeable army I thought. around 40 units... 20 zerglings, and 20 hydralisks. I woulda thought they'd of at least done a 1:1 kill death ratio. But no... they did a 1:4 ratio

They had upgrades too!

Yeah, he had 90, you had 40...

When something like that happens, your pretty screwed. He had about twice your army in forces...

They just couldn't kill them fast enough. There where too many. They got swarmed.

 

[Raziaar]

Razier, I think starcraft did a much better job balancing units then supcom... I have been playing both.

In starcraft, large armies generally help you win. It has nothing to do with spamming. If the other person knows what he is doing and scouts, then you can easily create a couple of units to counter them.

The counter for large armies is a large army, FYI. If he is able to get more resources and men then you, well, it isn't good. Thats the same for ANY RTS, including supreme commander.

The thing about starcraft is, the lower tech units can be upgraded so they are still a viable force. And all units have a counter. But the thing I like about starcraft so much is, that counter is not overpowered.

In supreme commander, the units counters, such as anti-air guns, are overpowered. 40 bombers can't take out some anti-air guns. Same with the destroyers anti-missle crap; no missles can hit them, making them invulnerable to sub's or missle launchers.

In starcraft, all units can hit each other to some degree, meaning that if you don't have a counter to a certain unit, you can still kill it, even if its a little harder. And, if you do have the counter, it can still kill you, even if its a little harder.

A good example of this is anti-air units versus air units, like a missle turret versus some wraiths. The wraiths can still fight, and win. But the missle turret does do a lot of damage.

The one thing about supreme commander is it seems to rock-paper-scissor like. I would like to see the specific counters to units be... toned down a tad. Large forces of bombers should be able to take down some anti-air, while likewise normal forces should be able to take pot-shots at bombers.

Well if you try launching a bunch of bombers, trying to overwhelm their defenses... yet your enemy has a sprawling defense field of anti aircraft weapons... of course all your bombers are going to die. that'd happen in real life too.

That's why you need combined arms to win in supcom, which I love. If you can't penetrate their base one way... I most definitely assure you that you can another way. This encourages players to build a healthy military to be able to respond to the changing tide of battle, and what the waves of war wash up on the beach of conflict.

Yeah, he had 90, you had 40...

When something like that happens, your pretty screwed. He had about twice your army in forces...

They just couldn't kill them fast enough. There where too many. They got swarmed.

See though... that's stupid. Numbers should not be the only deciding factor in victory. Aren't hydralisks supposed to be STRONGER than zerglings? I should of stood some sort of chance. But nope, my guys didn't even kill even close to what I expected them to.

 

[CyberPitz]

Zerglings do full damage to hydralisks.....hydras do ..I think roughly 3/4s dmg to zerglings..do to they do max dmg to medium range. I havn't really done this math in a long time.

 

[Raziaar]

Oh well. I like games where overwhelming numbers don't mean everything.

Like i said... i've always felt this way about star craft.

 

[CyberPitz]

Oh well. I like games where overwhelming numbers don't mean everything.

Like i said... i've always felt this way about star craft.

This game ISN't about overwealming numbers. If you were terran, andyou had...20 firebats and 20 marines..you would have won if micromanaged a bit. Zerg vs Zerg is tricky at times...but if you had 3 or 4 sunken colonies and micro managed your units, you would have faired a bit better.

 

[Raziaar]

At any rate... I always try to encourage my cousins to be more varied in what they do in the games they play when attacking. They generally try to relay on one thing, and one thing only.

Just because it works against me, doesn't mean it'd always work against others he plays with. So I encourage him to build a variety of units.

 

[CyberPitz]

At any rate... I always try to encourage my cousins to be more varied in what they do in the games they play when attacking. They generally try to relay on one thing, and one thing only.

Just because it works against me, doesn't mean it'd always work against others he plays with. So I encourage him to build a variety of units.

It's true...or build units that are the enemies weakness. Like if they are going mass Zealot...get alot of marines/firebats...it's all about the strategy...finding out what they are doing, than taking advantage of it.

 

[Puzzlemaker]

Yeah, raziaar, you don't seem to get the game, so stop complaining about it...

In supcom, I built 40 bombers. They where against 2. I repeat. 2. Tech 2 mobile anti-air.

In case you havn't noticed, once the bombers drop the bomb, it takes a second to hit the ground. He was microing those mobile anti-air guns, and managed to take down. All. My. Bombers. If that isn't overpowered, I don't know what is.

And also, Raziaar: Overwhelming numbers is a very viable solution in supcom. In fact, it seems the game is MADE for that. A cap limit of 500? I mean, come on! I get swarmed with a ton of units very often.

 

[CyberPitz]

Yeah, raziaar, you don't seem to get the game, so stop complaining about it...

In supcom, I built 40 bombers. They where against 2. I repeat. 2. Tech 2 mobile anti-air.

In case you havn't noticed, once the bombers drop the bomb, it takes a second to hit the ground. He was microing those mobile anti-air guns, and managed to take down. All. My. Bombers. If that isn't overpowered, I don't know what is.

And also, Raziaar: Overwhelming numbers is a very viable solution in supcom. In fact, it seems the game is MADE for that. A cap limit of 500? I mean, come on! I get swarmed with a ton of units very often.

Only thing with unit cap is it includes buildings

 

[Puzzlemaker]

Only thing with unit cap is it includes buildings

Yeah, I know. But it still lets you create an ungodly amount of units.

 

[Raziaar]

Yeah, raziaar, you don't seem to get the game, so stop complaining about it...

In supcom, I built 40 bombers. They where against 2. I repeat. 2. Tech 2 mobile anti-air.

In case you havn't noticed, once the bombers drop the bomb, it takes a second to hit the ground. He was microing those mobile anti-air guns, and managed to take down. All. My. Bombers. If that isn't overpowered, I don't know what is.

And also, Raziaar: Overwhelming numbers is a very viable solution in supcom. In fact, it seems the game is MADE for that. A cap limit of 500? I mean, come on! I get swarmed with a ton of units very often.

It's completely your fault if you allowed 40 bombers to get destroyed by mobile anti-air. Sorry, but that's just the truth. why were you dealing with two mobile anti-airs with 40 bombers? You should of utilized those to better effect. Attack him in multiple areas, so that he cannot micromanage as easily. If you attack just in one spot, he can micromanage all he wants. If you attack and force him to respond in multiple spots, he can only micromanage in one area. Long enough for you to kill the other guys, then retreat the other ones.

And also, Raziaar: Overwhelming numbers is a very viable solution in supcom. In fact, it seems the game is MADE for that. A cap limit of 500? I mean, come on! I get swarmed with a ton of units very often.

Not overwhelming numbers of the same unit. At least, not tech 1 and tech 2. Overwhelming numbers are very easy to decimate in supreme commander if you know what you're doing. I'm not that great of a player, and I've managed to destroy loads of waves of overwhelming numbers. Using a combination of my own guys, static defenses and the like... entire attacking armies can be demolished fast. And unless they're tech 3 siege assault bots, you stand a good chance of doing it repeatedly.

So somebody who throws all their eggs into one basket, nothing but low tech, high quantity units... will lose easily. It's all about building more advanced units, and most importantly... using combined arms.

This may be the case in starcraft as well... but I've never seen it.

The great thing about supreme commander and mass numbers of units? It's easy for any player to build mass numbers. You don't have to be an absolute master at your economy with micromanagement to accomplish it.

 

[Puzzlemaker]

Yeah. Only problem was, there was a huge army along with those two anti-air units. That was heading torwards my base. See, I scouted, and I noticed that he didn't have any anti-air units.

Anyway, he attacked, my bombers where savaging his forces. Then, he managed to get 2 mobile anti-air guns to the front line. I thought, "Hell, I can take those down with 40 bombers."

Alas, I lost many of them before I decided to ignore them and continue bombing his forces. That worked for awhile, but the aa guns kept on bringing down my bombers, but I kept them out there because my base defenses whern't able to cope, mostly because he flew a supreme commander support unit in a drop ship over them. My defenses shot at it, boom, suddenly all my defenses where GONE, and his forces where moving in. I only had my bombers left.

Overwhelming numbers are easy to decimate in starcraft IF you know what you are doing. You seem to disagree with this point. You need to play more starcraft.

Overwhelming numbers in supcom are easy to decimate IF you know what you are doing, I agree.

But that doesn't mean they arn't a viable tactic if the attacker knows what he is doing, too.

 

[Raziaar]

Look man. I already said i suck at starcraft. I'm not denying that fact.

Overwhelming numbers are easy to decimate in starcraft IF you know what you are doing. You seem to disagree with this point. You need to play more starcraft.

I was doing all I could, as fast as I could. I was building as many units as I could a turn. my 40 guys died by his 80, and mine only killed 13. At the time of my death, I had 3 hatcheries, several upgrade buildings with things being upgraded(and things that have been upgraded), and about 20 guys mining minerals and stuff. I was pumping out 9 larvae into different unit types as fast as my resources would allow, before my cousin invaded. It's clear his economy was better than mine... but I guess my only fatal flaw was that I was pumping some resources into upgrading my unit types and building hydralisks to protect against air invasions(as it was island). Resources which apparently should have just been used to spawn a crapload of zerglings so I could match his swarm number for number. THAT's the thing i'm frusterated about... the fact that trying as hard as I could(and doing quite decently), my variety in production wasn't rewarded... and simply was no match to somebody who just spammed the most basic unit he has. I like games that reward building all the different unit types... like those big hulking zergs and queens and stuff, not just numbers.

Obviously I need more practice, but I'm extremely dissapointed that my well upgraded zerglings and hydralisks barely scratched his army. I guess I just picked the wrong race to fight against zerg(zerg). My little cousin got 8 times the kills I did as terran, and almost completely decimated the attacking army before he was destroyed. He didn't have more units than I did... his base wasn't better built than mine was. I guess it's just the combination of marine ranged attacks that allowed him to do it.

Just because I'm not an expert at the game, doesn't mean I can't criticize it. So back off. I've always considered other FPS games after it's time(not all... just certain ones) to be better than starcraft... and that's not just because of the problems I've labeled here.

 

[CyberPitz]

The thing with starcraft is you need to learn what dmg types each unit does, and what armor type each unit IS. There's a reason Hydras do max dmg to goliaths and tanks and not near as much to marines and ghosts.

Dragoons do dmg to heavy armor, so if he is massing goons, mass lings. It's all in that. At least sup com doesn't have that implimented...the units are all virtually the with each race, just made differently. that's one disapointing thing.

 

[hungryduck]

Hamachi FTW; no dicking around with routers!

I think your little cousin would own me completely in an RTS. I suck ass at them.

agreed, hamachi is a great piece of software.

 

[Raziaar]

The thing with starcraft is you need to learn what dmg types each unit does, and what armor type each unit IS. There's a reason Hydras do max dmg to goliaths and tanks and not near as much to marines and ghosts.

Dragoons do dmg to heavy armor, so if he is massing goons, mass lings. It's all in that. At least sup com doesn't have that implimented...the units are all virtually the with each race, just made differently. that's one disapointing thing.

Yes, that's one thing they promised us, but changed to our disapointment.

A very simple thing happened that caused me to lose. I spent my resources into diversifying my army to have a good solid base against what he could attack me with. I wasn't prepared for nothing but zerglings. But by the time I realized he was building nothing but zerglings... well it was too late.

I had already scouted him, and was preparing my own invasion using the overlords as transports across the ocean... but he got me first.

 

[<RJMC>]

The thing with starcraft is you need to learn what dmg types each unit does, and what armor type each unit IS. There's a reason Hydras do max dmg to goliaths and tanks and not near as much to marines and ghosts.

Dragoons do dmg to heavy armor, so if he is massing goons, mass lings. It's all in that. At least sup com doesn't have that implimented...the units are all virtually the with each race, just made differently. that's one disapointing thing.

thats one thing I want to know

how the dmg armor stuff works?

 

[CyberPitz]

thats one thing I want to know

how the dmg armor stuff works?

Well, Zerglings do max dmg to light armor *marines, ghosts, zerglings, *not sure if dragoons are light...I think they are..*
Hydralisks to max dmg to heavy...Firebats, Tanks, goliaths, etc...

This works...http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/StarCraft:Counter_List

 

[Bob_Marley]

Yeah, raziaar, you don't seem to get the game, so stop complaining about it...

In supcom, I built 40 bombers. They where against 2. I repeat. 2. Tech 2 mobile anti-air.

In case you havn't noticed, once the bombers drop the bomb, it takes a second to hit the ground. He was microing those mobile anti-air guns, and managed to take down. All. My. Bombers. If that isn't overpowered, I don't know what is.

And also, Raziaar: Overwhelming numbers is a very viable solution in supcom. In fact, it seems the game is MADE for that. A cap limit of 500? I mean, come on! I get swarmed with a ton of units very often.

Hang on, Sup Com is how many years in the future? And they DONT have guieded munitions? Thats just odd. Also, with 40 bombers, couldnt you have just carpet bombed the general area where the AAA was?

 

[Puzzlemaker]

Hang on, Sup Com is how many years in the future? And they DONT have guieded munitions? Thats just odd. Also, with 40 bombers, couldnt you have just carpet bombed the general area where the AAA was?

You would think so. In order to "carpet bomb" I would have to tell each bomber to individually attack a diffrent area.

 

[Bob_Marley]

hmmm... Perhaps there needs to be some kind of "carpet bomb" order for bombers then!

Basic idea: select X number of bombers, select "carpet bomb", select target area, bombers go into formation and saturate the target area with bombs, dropping them so the limit of thier splash damage overlaps.

 

[CyberPitz]

hmmm... Perhaps there needs to be some kind of "carpet bomb" order for bombers then!

Basic idea: select X number of bombers, select "carpet bomb", select target area, bombers go into formation and saturate the target area with bombs, dropping them so the limit of thier splash damage overlaps.

The UEF t1 bombers have a thing where after the bombs blew up, it has fire just kind of left in the area....I find it works rather well for stopping those damned moving AA.

 

[Puzzlemaker]

The UEF t1 bombers have a thing where after the bombs blew up, it has fire just kind of left in the area....I find it works rather well for stopping those damned moving AA.

Oh really!?!? Awsome.

Is the UEF air force the strongest out of the three?

And thats a good idea for that carpet bomb thing. I wonder if I order someone to attack in formation thats what they would do... hmm.