Uk government - ID is shit

[Atomic_Piggy]

Or, something to that affect
http://www.freethinker.co.uk/?p=190
Full article at the bottom.

 

[kirovman]

Good.

 

[jondy]

Aw, I thought you were talking about ID cards ;(

Great news, anyway.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Aw, I thought you were talking about ID cards ;(

Great news, anyway.

Nah, I don't have a problem with them

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Why can't people see it both ways. At least (some) Americans have the common sense to see one can both believe in God and science of evolution.

 

[kirovman]

This is specifically about Intelligent Design being kicked out of the science clssroom forever. Which is perfectly logical. Creationism is NOT a science.

 

[jondy]

At least (some) Americans have the common sense to see one can both believe in God and science of evolution.

That's irrelevant, but debatable nonetheless. The whole Non-Overlapping Magisteria thing is pretty problematic.

On topic, I'm surprised this document was even written after Blair's legacy in education.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

On the North Eastern Sea Board of America, most of us believe in both God and Evolution. You see, we have something called a logical thinking brain, unlike our radical neighbors to the south, or old pals across the sea. No offense, but it's pretty obvious that Evolution happened and is still happening, and that something didn't come from nothing.

 

[theotherguy]

On the North Eastern Sea Board of America, most of us believe in both God and Evolution. You see, we have something called a logical thinking brain, unlike or radical neighbors to the south, or old pals across the sea. No offense, but it's pretty obvious that Evolution happened and is still happening, and that something didn't come from nothing.

So you're a deist then?

If something cannot come from nothing, then why do you make the special pleading argument for your god? After all, if your god exists, it must be "something", and could not have come from "nothing" itself. If you conclude that your god has always existed, then there is no reason why matter and energy, which are much more simple than your infinitely complex divine being, could have always existed.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Oh, that old argument again? It's quantum, I think that's what it's called anyways. Everything is forever and every possibility is present in all areas of everything. Never doesn't exist.

Example:

double Slit experiment

In layman's terms. The thought of time is irrelevant as time doesn't effect things on the quantum level.

And to me, life is but a lesson in many on the path to heaven. Yea, you don't meet a Christian who slightly believes in reincarnation everyday now do you?

You gotz God-Owned, or
GOwneD.

 

[theotherguy]

Oh, that old argument again? It's quantum, I think that's what it's called anyways. Everything is forever and every possibility is present in all areas of everything. Never doesn't exist.

Example:

double Slit experiment

In layman's terms. The thought of time is irrelevant as time doesn't effect things on the quantum level.

And to me, life is but a lesson in many on the path to heaven. Yea, you don't meet a Christian who slightly believes in reincarnation everyday now do you?

Wait so you're using the Heisenberg uncertainty principle as justification for believing in a giant, invisible, all-powerful sky-daddy?

:|

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Who says sky? And I don't even know who Heisenberg is!

All I know is that an infinite amount of matter can fit into a single spot, electrons know when something is observing them, Photons are smart enough to create a quantum highway if something is blocking their way, and Time is non-existing at this scale. If little mindless matter is so seemingly understanding of these things and can do them, why couldn't a God do the same?

I also hold my belief from personal reasons that I'm sure you'll call me crazy or just simply seeing things. I've seen Ghosts, I've seen my dead friends on cameras, and I've even woken up with my pillow being pulled out from me while I sleep and no one was there but the moonlight.

This kind of stuff always breaks down to the same argument though. How there are a gazillion evidences of Ghosts and the lots, but nothing "documented" so therefor the millions of after death scenes, ghostly houses and all of it seemly are brushed out the window oh so conveniently.

You can't prove that God doesn't exist, and I can't use any undocumented stuff. There, I just predicted the future of this argument.

 

[The Brick]

Just found this on Digg, Temple of ignorance - The Creation Museum



lulz

 

[theotherguy]

Who says sky? And I don't even know who Heisenberg is!

All I know is that an infinite amount of matter can fit into a single spot, electrons know when something is observing them, Photons are smart enough to create a quantum highway if something is blocking their way, and Time is non-existing at this scale. If little mindless matter is so seemingly understanding of these things and can do them, why couldn't a God do the same?

Bible implies sky. Heisenberg discovered the mechanism you are describing whereby quantum particles cannot be observed to have an exact position and velocity because the measurements limit each other.

Photons aren't smart, they simply follow the only physically possible path out of the infinity that they are capable of following. An infinite amount of matter can exist in one spot, this is what we call a black hole. Electrons don't "know" they are being observed, our observations are simply limited by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle its a limit of our observation, not the actions of the particles themselves.

Your conclusion "why couldn't a god do the same?" is a non-sequiter. Even if particles had consciousness (which is completely ridiculous), it doesn't say a thing about divine beings.

I also hold my belief from personal reasons that I'm sure you'll call me crazy or just simply seeing things. I've seen Ghosts, I've seen my dead friends on cameras, and I've even woken up with my pillow being pulled out from me while I sleep and no one was there but the moonlight.

Diagnosis: paranoia and mild delusional schizophrenia.
Prognosis: seek psychotherapeutic help. Or just get more education.

This kind of stuff always breaks down to the same argument though. How there are a gazillion evidences of Ghosts and the lots, but nothing "documented" so therefor the millions of after death scenes, ghostly houses and all of it seemly are brushed out the window oh so conveniently.

I suggest you learn the difference between anecdotal and scientific evidence. A lot of people think Elvis is still alive or that the bigfoot roams the west, but their evidence is anecdotal and thus proves nothing. People can say anything, but if there's no controlled study it means positively nothing. This is the basis of science.

You can't prove that God doesn't exist, and I can't use any undocumented stuff. There, I just predicted the future of this argument.

And you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorns, grim reapers, fairies, the easter bunny, Santa Claus and a mystical teapot in orbit around Jupiter don't exist either. The burden of proof rests upon you, and if you can't provide any real evidence, there is no reason to Believe in your God, we'd have just as much reason to believe in any conceivable nonsense.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

If something cannot come from nothing, then why do you make the special pleading argument for your god? After all, if your god exists, it must be "something", and could not have come from "nothing" itself. If you conclude that your god has always existed, then there is no reason why matter and energy, which are much more simple than your infinitely complex divine being, could have always existed.

Why not just let people believe what they want to believe, instead of competing for whose thought is the most profound or believable.

Why should anybody care what anyone believes, as long as it doesn't stop buttsechs and freedom.

 

[theotherguy]

Why not just let people believe what they want to believe, instead of competing for whose thought is the most profound or believable.

Why should anybody care what anyone believes, as long as it doesn't stop buttsechs and freedom.

If I see a silly belief I will ridicule it. There is no immunity for politics or ordinary beliefs, why should there be one for religion? Like any other opinion, religion is open to debate.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

And you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorns, grim reapers, fairies, the easter bunny, Santa Claus and a mystical teapot in orbit around Jupiter don't exist either. The burden of proof rests upon you, and if you can't provide any real evidence, there is no reason to Believe in your God, we'd have just as much reason to believe in any conceivable nonsense.

Real evidence is in the eye of the beholder. People change things to see what they see. What I see may be just an anomaly of a photo to you.

For me, all religions root from the same God, just called differently. I'd put money on the probability that Buddha talked to God, the same one called Allah to Muslims and Jesus to me. I'd say the burden of proof is on you as most people believe in God.

If you were to realize a small fact, you'd realize that it's actually impossible for something after death not to exist. it simply goes against the laws of the universe. Weather or not it's the soul, your molecules will be present for ever. Back on topic, I highly doubt the brits will go long with this statement, being that it will distance Muslims from votes further. And we all know that it all comes down to votes in the end.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

If you were to realize a small fact, you'd realize that it's actually impossible for something after death not to exist. it simply goes against the laws of the universe. Weather or not it's the soul, your molecules will be present for ever. Back on topic, I highly doubt the brits will go long with this statement, being that it will distance Muslims from votes further. And we all know that it all comes down to votes in the end.

When your dead, your brain stops. When your brain stops, counsciousness dies. Its irrelevant what happens afterwards, because your aren't counscious.

 

[RidleyRockets]

If I see a silly belief I will ridicule it. There is no immunity for politics or ordinary beliefs, why should there be one for religion? Like any other opinion, religion is open to debate.

Well put and well done.

 

[Baserape>]

When your dead, your brain stops. When your brain stops, counsciousness dies. Its irrelevant what happens afterwards, because your aren't counscious.

Wrong.


Evil

 

[RidleyRockets]

Real evidence is in the eye of the beholder.

Please expand on this for me.

People For me, all religions root from the same God, just called differently.

Then why do different religions have very different and contradictory teachings?

I'd put money on the probability that Buddha talked to God, the same one called Allah to Muslims and Jesus to me.

I'm worried for your financial future.

I'd say the burden of proof is on you as most people believe in God.

This is a logical fallacy, argument by consensus. At one point most people believed that the sun moved around the earth.

 

[Solaris]

Hurrah! This portal fellow is going to get DESTROYED!

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Real evidence is in the eye of the beholder. People change things to see what they see. What I see may be just an anomaly of a photo to you.

Example of "subjective" evidence please.

For me, all religions root from the same God, just called differently. I'd put money on the probability that Buddha talked to God, the same one called Allah to Muslims and Jesus to me.

Buddhism teaches riencarnation, yet christianity teaches one afterliffe - in Islam, Jesus is a prophet, not the son of God. How are they similar?

I'd say the burden of proof is on you as most people believe in God.

While RidleyRockets gave a suitable answer, you seem to have no understanding of "burden of proof".

If you were to realize a small fact, you'd realize that it's actually impossible for something after death not to exist. it simply goes against the laws of the universe. Weather or not it's the soul, your molecules will be present for ever.

"Death" is typically thought of as when you stop living, not when your molecues cease to exist. Stop acting like you know what your talking about, get off your pedastal and debate properly.

Back on topic, I highly doubt the brits will go long with this statement, being that it will distance Muslims from votes further. And we all know that it all comes down to votes in the end.

Firstly, most muslims aren't creationists, and second, there are christian creationists - in fact, they are the main problem. Not muslim ones.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Ok I phailed. So I call myself Christian, but I guess a modern one. Worship the spaghetti monster if you wish, Just be a good Spaghetti worshiper.

As for proof is in the eye of the beholder, that's commons sense to understand. What I see as God others may see as not God.

And Muslims are creationists. You go to a Muslim country and say we came from monkeys, you better duck cause a shit load of stones are on your way.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Ok I phailed. So I call myself Christian, but I guess a modern one. Worship the spaghetti monster if you wish, Just be a good Spaghetti worshiper.

As for proof is in the eye of the beholder, that's commons sense to understand. What I see as God others may see as not God.

And Muslims are creationists. You go to a Muslim country and say we came from monkeys, you better duck cause a shit load of stones are on your way.

So are christians.
See, I can make broad generalisations too - not every muslim is a creationist, just as not every christian is, so stop making ignorant claims. In fact, I even said most of the problem is christian creationists.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

you right dumb stuff when you've had 2 hours of sleep:dozey:. I are dumb.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

you right dumb stuff when you've had 2 hours of sleep:dozey:. I are dumb.

No your not.

 

[Pesmerga]

If you were to realize a small fact, you'd realize that it's actually impossible for something after death not to exist. it simply goes against the laws of the universe. Weather or not it's the soul, your molecules will be present for ever.

Think of a car engine. If the engine overheats and breaks down, it will stop working. The engine will still be there, but it ain't gonna move a car. Same as the human body- the brain might be there, but it can still break.

I'd say the burden of proof is on you as most people believe in God.

Argument by general consensus is a logical fallacy, as stated previously, twice. Just because everyone in the village thought she was a witch did not mean the burden of proof rested on her to disprove the accusation.

Real evidence is in the eye of the beholder.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Art is in the eye of the beholder. Not evidence. I think you mean to say perception is reality- but when the probability of one thing being true approaches 1, it is held as truth. Of course there are no 100%s, but there are probabilities of likelihood.



Next time, do not excuse your argument to be a result of sleep deprivation. Youth is about learning. If you have learned something here, or are inspired to explore, we have done our job as teachers.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Except me, because I'm a swimming teacher.

 

[Cormeh]

Except me, because I'm a swimming teacher.

I laughed. Very, very hard.

/spam

 

[[Matt]]

Real evidence is in the eye of the beholder. People change things to see what they see. What I see may be just an anomaly of a photo to you.

Perception does not equate reality. When I seea photo with an anomaly on it then i do indeed only see a photo with an anomaly on it. You my friend have fallen foul of one of your brains physcological tricks when seeing more than you should: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

I dont claim that 'ghosts' dont exist as i have seen some wierd stuff in my 30 years of existence. i remember once bieng woken with a start in my bed in the middle of the night. Turning to my left i saw a very dark undefined shape float quickly from the middle of the room up and right whilst rotating. however I only saw this dark shape move for around 2 seconds or so before and the room was only lit by my small television i had left on and so was quite dark itself and not bright enough to make anything out clearly. I was also quite disorientated after waking suddenly due to tiredness. I am all too aware that what i saw could have been something paranormal but i am also aware that my mind could be playing tricks on me. Heres where occams razor applies for me...

For me, all religions root from the same God, just called differently. I'd put money on the probability that Buddha talked to God, the same one called Allah to Muslims and Jesus to me. I'd say the burden of proof is on you as most people believe in God.

Extraordinary claim require extraordinary evidence. Im not the one making extraordinary claims. In fact im not making any claim at all other than i dont think theres a god. As mentioned before argument by general concensus doesnt prove anything. It was once thought that the earth was at the the centre of our solar system and all of the planets and the sun orbited around it. It was Copernicus that first hypothesised that the sun was the centre of our solar system but the idea didnt become well know until Galileo took up his cause. Even then the idea wasnt accepted and the Roman Catholic Inquisition forced Galileo to retract his findings and he spent the last years of his life under house arrest by them.

Also a little lesson on religion here. Buddhism is a religion without a god as siddhartha never claimed to have spoken with anyone but his own consciousness. As for christianity and islam they are both 2 sides of the same religion. Do the research and you might be shocked at how similar the Bible is to the Qur'an. The 7 day creation myth, Adam and Eve in the garden of eden story, noah and his ark, the story of abraham, Moses and his exodus, David and goliath and his subsequent rise to become king of israel and even the virgin birth of jesus and his performing of miracles. The biggest difference between the two religions is that islam doesnt believe that jesus is the literal son of god which seems sensible since jesus himself never made that claim.

If you were to realize a small fact, you'd realize that it's actually impossible for something after death not to exist. it simply goes against the laws of the universe. Weather or not it's the soul, your molecules will be present for ever. Back on topic, I highly doubt the brits will go long with this statement, being that it will distance Muslims from votes further. And we all know that it all comes down to votes in the end.

Theres no evidence for anything existing after death so anyone who claims there is has to deal with the burden of proof yet again.

And thankfully the percentrage of people living in the UK that are actually theists of soem sort is around the mid 40 mark and im willing to bet that not even a tenth of those are creationists or supporters of ID. Evangelicalism is a rare thing here and as such these guildlines are now already in place.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Based on that, only more problems can come. because as the Muslims are panhandled, the Politicians will happily change their views for votes.

All of England's new immigrants seem to, from the News, be coming from the Middle East. I have a strong feeling that the Muslims will gang-rape (Figuratively, but of course)any atheists, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, etc in the nation using their Iron fist called votes.

 

[[Matt]]

Wrong. Most UK immigrants come from the newly joined EU countries of poland, bulgaria and romania. Theres a supermarket near me where they have to have an interpreter because more than two thirds of the night staff only speak polish.

Islam is still a minority religion in the UK with only 2.7% of the country as of the 2001 consensus considering themselves Muslim although that figure is probably nearer 4% thanks to immigration. Still not a lot when you consider 1% of the population actually answered the question of religion as Jedi Knight.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Well, most of Eastern Europe is Orthodox. I forget weather or not they have any hatred towards the Muslims, but I can tell you one thing, they are strong religious people. They, unlike the Muslims, won't blow themselves up for it though. I'm a proud 25% Eastern European.(Russian, Ukraine, etc)

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Wrong. Most UK immigrants come from the newly joined EU countries of poland, bulgaria and romania. Theres a supermarket near me where they have to have an interpreter because more than two thirds of the night staff only speak polish.

Holy shit really? The closest we got to that around here is adverts written in Polish.

 

[[Matt]]

Yes. They've even started serlling one or two polish branded items but i dont mind as one of them is a really nice polish beer