US caught in nuke lie ...again

[Absinthe]

NK admitted to having weapons
US lied about NK selling weapons to Libya.

There it is. Cut and dry. If people have trouble wrapping their heads around this, then I pity them.

 

[seinfeldrules]

US lied about NK selling weapons to Libya.

1. Did NK sell nuclear material? Yes or no.
2. Was the US mistaken about the N.Koreans selling Libya nuclear materials? Yes or no.
3. Did the North Korean nuclear material make its way into the hands of Libya through a singular middleman? Yes or no.

 

[No Limit]

1. Did NK sell nuclear material? Yes or no.
2. Was the US mistaken about the N.Koreans selling Libya nuclear materials? Yes or no.
3. Did the North Korean nuclear material make its way into the hands of Libya through a singular middleman? Yes or no.

:thumbs:

You get a thumbs up for following Bush no matter how wrong or how damaging he is. This is an outrage yet you don't give a shit since Bush did it. Congrats. A great way to get support from our allies is to lie to them. :smoking:

 

[seinfeldrules]

You get a thumbs up for following Bush no matter how wrong or how damaging he is. This is an outrage yet you don't give a shit since Bush did it. Congrats. A great way to get support from our allies is to lie to them.

Care to answer the yes/no questions?

1. Did NK sell nuclear material? Yes or no.
2. Was the US mistaken about the N.Koreans selling Libya nuclear materials? Yes or no.
3. Did the North Korean nuclear material make its way into the hands of Libya through a singular middleman? Yes or no.

 

[Absinthe]

1. Did NK sell nuclear material? Yes or no.

Yes. To Pakistan. One of the USA's allies.

2. Was the US mistaken about the N.Koreans selling Libya nuclear materials? Yes or no.

Yes. And despite being aware of this flaw, they persisted with it.

3. Did the North Korean nuclear material make its way into the hands of Libya through a singular middleman? Yes or no.

Yes. NK was unaware of the transaction between Pakistan and Libya.

I don't know what you're trying to get at, seinfeld. All I'm seeing is single-minded support for the US administration.

So here's a yes/no question for you.

Did the US purposefully lie about North Korea on this issue?

 

[seinfeldrules]

Did the US purposefully lie about North Korea on this issue?

Nobody knows the real answer to that question except a few people in Washington. I believe it was a mistake, but I wont question anybody who felt they lied either. Why do I think it was a mistake?

But in recent days, two other U.S. officials said the briefings were hastily arranged after China and South Korea indicated they were considering bolting from six-party talks on North Korea.

Due to the 'hastily arranged' portion of that quotation, I feel it is likely that intelligence was assumed rather than checked.

I don't know what you're trying to get at, seinfeld. All I'm seeing is single-minded support for the US administration.

The point is that the material ended up in Libya. That is why NK shouldnt be allowed to sell it period, you never know where it may end up.

 

[Absinthe]

The point is that the material ended up in Libya. That is why NK shouldnt be allowed to sell it period, you never know where it may end up.

The United States sold weapons to Osama bin Laden. Obviously, the USA shouldn't be able to sell weapons, period.

 

[seinfeldrules]

The United States sold weapons to Osama bin Laden. Obviously, the USA shouldn't be able to sell weapons, period.

There is a difference between a Stinger Missle and nuclear material that is used to make nuclear warheads. Furthermore, we sold it to bin Laden when he was fighting the Soviets. I dont have a problem with that. I do have a problem with some of our sales to Saddam however.

 

[Cole]

Aww crap not again..
Look an elepahant!
*Runs off*

True Absinthe, we shouldn't be able to sell anything but..oh well we do . I mean where teh special people ^_^....so special!

 

[Absinthe]

There is a difference between a Stinger Missle and nuclear material that is used to make nuclear warheads. Furthermore, we sold it to bin Laden when he was fighting the Soviets. I dont have a problem with that. I do have a problem with some of our sales to Saddam however.

If you have an issue with nuclear weapons in the hands of Libya, then bring it up with Pakistan.

 

[seinfeldrules]

If you have an issue with nuclear weapons in the hands of Libya, then bring it up with Pakistan.

I hope we do (but we wont), and I hope we prevent NKorea from selling these types of weapons ever again (but we wont).

 

[No Limit]

Nobody knows the real answer to that question except a few people in Washington. I believe it was a mistake, but I wont question anybody who felt they lied either. Why do I think it was a mistake?

Everything is a simple mistake if Bush does it, it is never deliberate for some reason. Saying Niger gave uranium to Saddam, then Wilson saying this is false, and then this administration outing his wife as a CIA operative which is a federal crime was also a minor mistake. Saying aluminum tubes could ONLY be used for uranium enrichement even though many people were saying otherwise was also a minor mistake. Having direct intelligence saying Pakistan sold that Uranium to Lybia and spinning it to say it was NK is also a minor mistake. Do you fail to see how blinded you are by your partisan glasses? THESE WERE NOT MISTAKES! THESE WERE DELIBERATE LIES/FEDERAL CRIMES.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Everything is a simple mistake if Bush does it,

Is my viewpoint any different than you thinking all he does is lie?

Do you fail to see how blinded you are by your partisan glasses?

Again, you're no different. If you cannot at least be somewhat internally objective then there is no need to continue. Your opinion isnt the voice of God.

 

[No Limit]

Is my viewpoint any different than you thinking all he does is lie?

He did lie, prove otherwise. I just detailed 3 very extreme cases of deliberate lies by this administration. Is that your response? Great job :thumbs:

Again, you're no different. If you cannot at least be somewhat internally objective then there is no need to continue. Your opinion isnt the voice of God.

No, what I posted was not opinion. Go to dictionary.com and look up the words opinon and fact, it might make it more clear for you. I am yet to see any examples of democrats being this scandelous. If you actually had some and they were valid I woulddn't make an ass of myself trying to defend them; I would admit they were wrong. You seem to not want to do this with your hero Bush.

 

[seinfeldrules]

He did lie, prove otherwise. I just detailed 3 very extreme cases of deliberate lies by this administration. Is that your response? Great job

Prove he did lie purposely. Its all speculation.

I am yet to see any examples of democrats being this scandelous.

Because this isnt a thread about whose Dad is better.

 

[No Limit]

Prove he did lie purposely. Its all speculation.

Yes, all 3 examples of outright lies were mistakes on the administration's part. Are you serious? In one example they destroyed a CIA agent's career because her husband exposed the lies, and in the other there were many document examples of why this was a lie at the time yet they wouldn't back down from that lie. Get back to reality.

Because this isnt a thread about whose Dad is better.

No, but you are making accusations about me which are completely false. Again, you seem to miss the point of my post.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Yes, all 3 examples of outright lies were mistakes on the administration's part. Are you serious? In one example they destroyed a CIA agent's career because her husband exposed the lies, and in the other there were many document examples of why this was a lie at the time yet they wouldn't back down from that lie. Get back to reality.

I'm waiting for the evidence that he purposely lied about the topic at hand, since it is factual it shouldnt be hard to prove.

No, but you are making accusations about me which are completely false.

Fine, if you dont like being called partisan then perhaps you shouldnt be so eager to throw around the term yourself...

 

[No Limit]

I'm waiting for the evidence that he purposely lied about the topic at hand, since it is factual it shouldnt be hard to prove.

Ok, if this is your response fine, no need to go any deeper. I think I made my point when I showed you 3 direct examples (off the top of my head I might add) of deliberate lies to our allies to build a case for war. I also showed you examples of them ignoring facts, intelligence, or destroying the careers of people they disagree with. Your response is there is no way to tell this was on purpose (a sane person can tell) so we'll just leave it at that, I won't beat a dead horse here; I made my point and in my opinon I made it well.

Fine, if you dont like being called partisan then perhaps you shouldnt be so eager to throw around the term yourself...

There is a system in how debate works, you give a point I give a counter point. I say you are a partisan and show you how. Your response is that I am also. I show you how I am not. Your response to that, that I am a partisan with out adding any facts. I suggest you go around a look at some of my posts where I disagreed with democracts, Bush opponents/critics, and the few examples where I defended Bush. Now, I am having a hard time finding any post where you admited Bush was wrong. You won't even do it here when it is so obvious that they are wrong, you say it is a simple mistake.

 

[seinfeldrules]

There is a system in how debate works, you give a point I give a counter point. I say you are a partisan and show you how. Your response is that I am also. I show you how I am not. Your response to that, that I am a partisan with out adding any facts. I suggest you go around a look at some of my posts where I disagreed with democracts, Bush opponents/critics, and the few examples where I defended Bush. Now, I am having a hard time finding any post where you admited Bush was wrong. You won't even do it here when it is so obvious that they are wrong, you say it is a simple mistake.

They were wrong to release this briefing as it was. However, I draw the line at outright accusing my Presient of lying without evidence to back it up. Evidence which you cannot provide. You are a partisan because you are so willing to jump at Bush's throat without evidence to back it up. Furthermore, this quote is anything but objective:

I disagree highly with what conservatives here say but I have to admit you guys at least do some research. No matter how many times the liberals win a debate you will not change you mind but I still respect the fact you are willing to participate in meaningful debate, 95% of this country is too lazy for that.

Ahem, saying you win doesnt make it so. Sugar coat the comment all you want, you still made it.

 

[No Limit]

Ahem, saying you win doesnt make it so. Sugar coat the comment all you want, you still made it.

Again, I ask you to find an example on this board where the democrats were this scandelous and I defended them. If you can't I stand by my statement. Your only argument in this is you can't prove they lied (well a sane person knows they lied). This stupid argument can be applied to every lie ever said, please cut the crap. Besides if it was a mistake they wouldn't go out and destroy people's careers that pointed out the lies. I don't know why I am even going on with this.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Again, I ask you to find an example on this board where the democrats were this scandelous and I defended them. If you can't I stand by my statement.

See, conservatives dont really have anybody to focus on now that Kerry is out of the picture. Due to that fact, there is really no opportunity to prove that. I can show that you jump at Bush's throat with little if any evidence to support your claims. That is no different than me supporting him with little or no evidence.

 

[No Limit]

See, conservatives dont really have anybody to focus on now that Kerry is out of the picture. Due to that fact, there is really no opportunity to prove that. I can show that you jump at Bush's throat with little if any evidence to support your claims. That is no different than me supporting him with little or no evidence.

There are many issues you can focus on, for every issue in this country you will still have to convince the democrats to go along with you. I can name some things I am extremely pissed off at the democrats about, I am willing to admit they are wrong. You will never ever admit Bush is wrong no matter how many facts there are that slap you in the face. Forget it, keep thinking Bush didn't know they were lying all those times; whatever makes it easier for you. The problem with your argument is that in order for them not to know they were lying would mean they are completely incompetent to make any policy decisions but I know you also won't admit that even if it is one or the other. So which is it, were they lying deliberately or are they incompitent to make any policy decisions as they don't check the intelligence before they make claims that could lead to thousands of people dying in a war?

 

[seinfeldrules]

You will never ever admit Bush is wrong no matter how many facts there are that slap you in the face

When I see Bush is wrong, I admit it. What are some examples of this?
1. I think he was wrong to foce Colin Powell out.
2. He was wrong to cut education in the recently proposed budget.
3. He should meet with the Taiwanese leader.


Happy? Those are just a few off the top of my head.

The problem with your argument is that in order for them not to know they were lying would mean they are completely incompetent to make any policy decisions but I know you also won't admit that even if it is one or the other.

No, instead of rushing out the report they should have taken the time to properly gather all the resources available to them.

 

[No Limit]

When I see Bush is wrong, I admit it. What are some examples of this?
1. I think he was wrong to foce Colin Powell out.
2. He was wrong to cut education in the recently proposed budget.

Happy? Those are just a few off the top of my head.

He didn't force Powell, Powell left on his on free will as he couldn't deal with the administration any more (he said it was to spend time with his family, yeah, right).

Ok, I'll give you the education one but for some reason I think if the topic was made before this you would have defended him; I can't prove it so I'll just give it to you. Now I edited my post so you might not have seen it, lets get back to the thread. Address this:

So which is it, were they lying deliberately or are they incompitent to make any policy decisions as they don't check the intelligence before they make claims that could lead to thousands of people dying in a war?

 

[seinfeldrules]

He didn't force Powell, Powell left on his on free will as he couldn't deal with the administration any more (he said it was to spend time with his family, yeah, right).

We know that if Bush had made the effort Powell would have stayed.

Ok, I'll give you the education one but for some reason I think if the topic was made before this you would have defended him;

Not on the education portion. It is too important (and my school is falling apart).

So which is it, were they:

1.) lying deliberately

or

2.) are they incompitent to make any policy decisions as they don't check the intelligence before they make claims that could lead to thousands of people dying in a war?

1.) Not a question that I, or anybody, could answer from the information provided.
2.) They did rush out the reports without properly checking their validity. As I said:

No, instead of rushing out the report they should have taken the time to properly gather all the resources available to them.

This incident should not be used to get NK of the hook.

 

[No Limit]

2.) They did rush out the reports without properly checking their validity.

If they do that they are incompetent to do their job. Do you understand how many people would die in a war with NK. There is no way in hell you can have that many people die on false information. Second, they are lying to our allies that we need to bring a peaceful resolution to this conflict. If we lie to them they will not support us. So again, they are incompetent if it was actually a mistake.

 

[seinfeldrules]

If they do that they are incompetent to do their job.

Name one President who hasnt screwed up. Have you never screwed up while working? If so, you are incompetent.

Do you understand how many people would die in a war with NK.

Yes, I do know and understand.

There is no way in hell you can have that many people die on false information.

Were all the other examples I posted false?

 

[No Limit]

Name one President who hasnt screwed up. Have you never screwed up while working? If so, you are incompetent.

If I screw up once in a while, ok. If I am screwing up almost everything I do at work or if I screw up once where I cause the company huge losses I will be fired.

Were all the other examples I posted false?

It doesn't matter, you are trying to sway this topic in another direction. If we lie to our allies they will not support us which will be a disaster in a conflict like this.

I am leaving work now so I probably won't get a chance to respons until Monday, if I get some time I'll stop by over the weekend.

 

[bliink]

Seinfeldrules, No Limit; stop the love fest and get on topic.

 

[dream431ca]

And because of that I'm sure you have no problem laying the blame on America anytime a similar story comes up, even before all the evidence is in. This is going to be a rallying cry for everyone who hates America, claiming that we unjustly accused NK of doing this horrendous act. Doing this will allow them to shift attention away from the real threat NK is.

And I think selling the weapons to Osama at the time was a valid cause. Do you expect us to have a crystal ball looking into the future?

Well..of course people will rally against america but it's americas fault..people will not accept something like this...everytime america does something like this...some americans are confused why other people around the world (and people in their own country) get pissed off about it.