US monthly toll in Iraq at lowest since invasion

[unozero]

"Eleven US soldiers were killed in Iraq in July, the lowest monthly toll since the 2003 invasion, according to Pentagon figures, highlighting what US commanders say is a marked drop in violence. "

still 11 too many but at least its getting better The Iraqi Government must somehow find a sollution to stop the killing amongst the Iraqis. Then hopefully Iraq can finally take a breather
and become the Mexico of the Middle East,not super duper...but but at least you could go outside of your house and not get kidnapped or blown up by a missile from a Cobra.




http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080731200335.nz1yt6yx&show_article=1
SOURCE

 

[PimpinPenguin]

And how exactly is the Iraqi Government going to find a solution. The only thing that might help is if US and British forces get the **** out. As long as we are in Iraq there will always be Violence. The Iraqi goverment is no where near ready to take control of Iraq.

 

[unozero]

so you are saying that if we leave The Iraqis will stop killing each other?
drink more kool aid
shites and sunnis hated each other before we got there Saddam stopped them from killing each other now its up to the West and the new Iraqi Government to find a peaceful solution .

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Or we can pull out and say "**** yourselves"

 

[Absinthe]

And how exactly is the Iraqi Government going to find a solution. The only thing that might help is if US and British forces get the **** out. As long as we are in Iraq there will always be Violence. The Iraqi goverment is no where near ready to take control of Iraq.

I'm confused by this.

The Iraqi government is not ready to take control of Iraq, but it will be better if we leave now?

 

[No Limit]

OMG! We have a right winger on the message board again, anyone else excited? I love US election time.

Do you have any stats to show how many innocent Iraqi civillians have died or is that not very important to you?

 

[No Limit]

I'm confused by this.

The Iraqi government is not ready to take control of Iraq, but it will be better if we leave now?

The issue is they will never be ready to take control of Iraq. They have 2 groups that hate eachother, having us in the middle is just slowing the entire process which will inevitably take place; an all out civil war. It doesn't matter if it happens in 16 months or in 100 years, it will happen. Eventually we will withdraw by our own choice or by force, a civil war will break out, one group will take control, and a brutal dictator will be installed. We will be back to square one with millions of people dead as a result.

Nothing will change this fact, the question is how long are we willing to keep this up before we bankrupt ourselves. So yes, getting out of there would help, it would at least speed the process up. Less people might die as a result.

 

[Absinthe]

Such are my thoughts. But his post implied that an unready Iraqi government would get the job done without US forces... even though they're not ready. Or something.

Hence confusion.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

Pretty much what No Limit said.
I sad as it sounds, Saddam was great for Iraq and that's exactly what they need a powerful dictator. Goverment simply won't work in Iraq.
Sorry if my post wasn't clear i never meant to imply that the Iraqi Goverment would get the job done without British and Americans

 

[The Monkey]

Iraq shouldn't have been created in the fist place, as its borders doesn't reflect the cultural and religious structures. That prevents a national identity from forming. The League of Nations ****ed up big time when they split up the Ottoman Empire.

 

[CptStern]

so you are saying that if we leave The Iraqis will stop killing each other?
drink more kool aid
shites and sunnis hated each other before we got there Saddam stopped them from killing each other now its up to the West and the new Iraqi Government to find a peaceful solution .

dont you think your meddling put iraq in this situation in the first place? there is no solution from the west that will make iraqis happy ..you've put in puppet regimes before they have no reason to trust any coalition instated/approved government

look, face reality; the US will be in iraq indefinately ..it wont be at it's current size but you dont build airbases and the world's largest most fortified embassy and spend billions of remolding iraq just to hand it over to what could become another saddam. The US is there to stay

 

[Raziaar]

I personally don't see an issue of staying in Iraq if it's done in the same limited manner as the presence of American soldiers in many other countries in the world. There... but not going out there carrying out operations which is what the real problem is.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

The issue with staying in Iraq is that our troops will continue to be attacked. Unlike other country's were troops are there just to keep the peace, in Iraq they are always been attacked and killed. It's far to unstable. You either keep a large presence or don't bother.

 

[Raziaar]

Yes, you do have a significant point.

And I don't doubt after we stopped all military actions in Iraq the attacks would still occur. But that's all because of what we have done in Iraq, our significant presence there and disruption of lives.

Well, and the people that migrate to Iraq simply to kill Americans.

 

[unozero]

OMG! We have a right winger on the message board again, anyone else excited? I love US election time.

Do you have any stats to show how many innocent Iraqi civillians have died or is that not very important to you?

did you even read the opening post? and don't call me a right winger you prick.

dont you think your meddling put iraq in this situation in the first place? there is no solution from the west that will make iraqis happy ..you've put in puppet regimes before they have no reason to trust any coalition instated/approved government

look, face reality; the US will be in iraq indefinately ..it wont be at it's current size but you dont build airbases and the world's largest most fortified embassy and spend billions of remolding iraq just to hand it over to what could become another saddam. The US is there to stay

yes it's true that it is our fault that they are killing each other and no doubt the American Milltary has killed many Iraqi civilians by accident or by gi's gone mad.
But we must work hand in hand with the new Government so things will work out in the long run...also the Government is elected by the people of Iraq so it's not necessarily a "puppet: government
and imho there is nothing wrong with the U.S being there forever as long as the Iraqi Government permits it. Japan is doing fine with the U.S there etc.....


oh by the way it's funny how you tell me to face reality lol,I am that's why I posted this thread it's obvious things are getting better.

 

[kineaesth]

did you even read the opening post? and don't call me right winger you prick.

He must be right wing!

Wait, is right wing the bad one?

 

[Mr Stabby]

The people in charge of Iraq after the invasion were absolute numbskulls, the post war chaos was one of the major causes of the violence. Petraeus does seem to know what he's doing but even he said that the improvements made are fragile. I think it is possible to avoid an all out civil war but Iraq isn't stable yet and more troops and more civilians will inevitably die in the process of making it stable. There is no good solution anymore, now they have to pick the least bad one.

 

[15357]

did you even read the opening post? and don't call me a right winger you prick.
.

Whats so wrong about being a right winger? ;( I'm as right as right can get, and being right is just right. :/




And to OP: Less people dying? Isn't that a good thing, guys?

 

[No Limit]

did you even read the opening post? and don't call me a right winger you prick.

A little touchy about the issue I see. Yes, I'm sure you're a very fair and balanced person.

I did read your OP. What does that have to do with it? I asked you a specific question that you didn't answer, do you have any stats on how many innocent civillians have died or does that not matter as much to you?

 

[CptStern]

did you even read the opening post? and don't call me a right winger you prick.







yes it's true that it is our fault that they are killing each other and no doubt the American Milltary has killed many Iraqi civilians by accident or by gi's gone mad.
But we must work hand in hand with the new Government so things will work out in the long run...also the Government is elected by the people of Iraq so it's not necessarily a "puppet: government
and imho there is nothing wrong with the U.S being there forever as long as the Iraqi Government permits it. Japan is doing fine with the U.S there etc.....


oh by the way it's funny how you tell me to face reality lol,I am that's why I posted this thread it's obvious things are getting better.

relative to what? because less US soldiers have died this is somehow seen as proof that iraq is getting better? not a day goes by that dozens if not hundreds of people are killed and that's just in bagdad alone, 100% of the population is on food rations, sanitation is still a problem, the infrastructure is in shambles, rolling blackout on a daily basis is still a reality 5 years after the war

...and then there's the media spin that paints an inaccurate picture of the conditions in iraq

this on the surface sounds like good news:

New Medical Facility to Cut Infant Mortality Rate by Half

?I feel blessed to be working on this important project,? said Ryan Hartwig, construction representative with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Basrah Children?s Hospital Office

?Each time we go, we see more progress. I can look at the place now and actually visualize patients using this facility,? he continued. ?It?s just very satisfying being part of this effort that will no doubt save or change the lives of so many Iraqi children.?

yet the infant mortality rate soared by 150% in iraq since last year ..so half the infant mortality rate slashed by the construction of a new medical facility in Basra isnt even reducing the rate to pre 2007 level .it's localised in one area of iraq, not near enough to affect change to the infant mortality rates ..yet spin in in the right way and it sounds like there's progress ..well sure there's progress but it's more like 3 steps backwards one step forward

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...rs-as-young-pay-the-price-for-war-447931.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/may2007/iraq-m09.shtml
http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21466&Itemid=128

But we must work hand in hand with the new Government so things will work out in the long run.

you dont exactly have the best track record working with iraqi governments that's what got you here in the first place. The US' kind of help is akin to strong arming someone to do as they wish ..from handing out no bid contracts to american companies, to rewriting trade laws that are favourable to american intrests, the US has it's hand in the iraqi cookie jar ..or more accurately the US has commandeered the cookie jar and now call the shots

The people in charge of Iraq after the invasion were absolute numbskulls

dont forget murderers and terrorists


former iraqi prime minister Iyad Allawi appointed by the coalition:

murderer:

"The man ... described how Allawi had been taken to seven suspects, who were made to stand against a wall in a courtyard of the police station, their faces covered. After being told of their alleged crimes by a police official, Allawi had asked for a pistol, and then shot each prisoner in the head. [One of the men survived.] Afterward, the witness said, Allawi had declared to those present, 'This is how we must deal with the terrorists.' The witness said he approved of Allawi's act, adding that, in any case, the terrorists were better off dead, for they had been tortured for days."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7749.htm

terrorist:

Iyad Allawi, now the designated prime minister of Iraq, ran an exile organization intent on deposing Saddam Hussein that sent agents into Baghdad in the early 1990's to plant bombs and sabotage government facilities under the direction of the C.I.A., several former intelligence officials say.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0609-02.htm

 

[unozero]

A little touchy about the issue I see. Yes, I'm sure you're a very fair and balanced person.

I did read your OP. What does that have to do with it? I asked you a specific question that you didn't answer, do you have any stats on how many innocent civillians have died or does that not matter as much to you?

"The Iraqi Government must somehow find a sollution to stop the killing amongst the Iraqis"

one dead Iraqi every day is one too many but leaving won't make things better.I very much care for my fellow man in Iraq and else where,so I really don't know why you attacked me twice already and that completely unprovoked.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

What i fail to see is how you think the Iraqi Government will be able to find a solution. They are no where near ready to do anything. The Iraqis will never truly accept a western government, the current government are seen as American puppets in the eyes of Iraqis. The Government simply doesn't have the power to stop civil war between Sunnis and Shias, which is what the American and British are currently doing. This is the main bulk of violence that is happening in Iraq, and if the coalition can't think of a solution, then good luck to the Iraqi Government.

 

[No Limit]

"The Iraqi Government must somehow find a sollution to stop the killing amongst the Iraqis"

one dead Iraqi every day is one too many but leaving won't make things better.I very much care for my fellow man in Iraq and else where,so I really don't know why you attacked me twice already and that completely unprovoked.

Here, I'll help you out. The reason you don't have official numbers of how many Iraqi civillians have been killed is because there is no offical record of this. But this will get you started:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Really puts that rosy picture you tried to paint in to perspective, doesn't it?

 

[unozero]

thank you for showing me that death toll in this quarter is lower the most quarters before it.

 

[No Limit]

thank you for showing me that death toll in this quarter is lower the most quarters before it.

And? The deathtoll is still more than 2004 and 2005 which doesn't really mean progress unless you have another definition of progress that I dont know about.

 

[unozero]

That it's getting better and the Insurgency is slowly beginning to understand that the battlefield needs to be in the Congress (or what ever they call it right now) and not on Markets and Pilgrimages where innocents get blown up by frustrated Iraqis that get $400 for their family by killing themselves and other innocents/soldiers

Also i think you are a troll where am I trying to paint a rosy picture I simply stated that the violence levels have sharply decreased of course there still many problems like stern pointed it out. But I fail to see what the actual argument is. You want America and it's allies just to leave? do you think Power plant will pop out of the ground like Mushrooms? who do you think is guarding the current Power plants etc.... seriously duh

 

[No Limit]

That it's getting better and the Insurgency is slowly beginning to understand that the battlefield needs to be in the Congress (or what ever they call it right now) and not on Markets and Pilgrimages where innocents get blown up by frustrated Iraqis that get $400 for their family by killing themselves and other innocents/soldiers

Getting better in what way? I showed you numbers that have been fairly consistent since 2004, minus the huge spike in violance during 2005 in to 2006.

Did you not read my argument for why we need to leave? You should address it, it's on the first page.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

That it's getting better and the Insurgency is slowly beginning to understand that the battlefield needs to be in the Congress

That made me lol

The Insurgency doesn't give a **** about Congress or any American politics. Just cause they are not attacking as much is no reason to think they are beginning to understand. Let's be fair they don't have the resources to maintain such attacks. Also you know that the majority of Iraq is without Electricity or any basic utility's, the power grids are still being attacked, and well you still haven't built nowhere near enough power plants to make up for the ones you destroyed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/30/AR2006043001037.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/iraq/2003822245_iraq05.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12784358/

But to be fair you are guarding Iraq's oil reserves very well. I wonder why.
The fact remains that life in Iraq is still worst off since we invaded, it has not gotten any better for the Iraq's. I guarantee you that eventually you will pull out soon.

 

[VirusType2]

eventually you will pull out soon.

That pretty much sums it up

So, in other words, never.

 

[unozero]

That made me lol

The Insurgency doesn't give a **** about Congress or any American politics. Just cause they are not attacking as much is no reason to think they are beginning to understand. Let's be fair they don't have the resources to maintain such attacks. Also you know that the majority of Iraq is without Electricity or any basic utility's, the power grids are still being attacked, and well you still haven't built nowhere near enough power plants to make up for the ones you destroyed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/30/AR2006043001037.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/iraq/2003822245_iraq05.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12784358/

But to be fair you are guarding Iraq's oil reserves very well. I wonder why.
The fact remains that life in Iraq is still worst off since we invaded, it has not gotten any better for the Iraq's. I guarantee you that eventually you will pull out soon.

I was talking about the Iraqi senate...and you basically made the same non argument as Cpt Stern before you.
many Insurgency groups have moved to form political parties n late 2007 can't find any links right now but I will post some later tonight.
Are you some internet jihadist or something acting all tough and shit lol.


"omg you broke all this stuff ,you are not fixing it fast enough wa so pull out now"

surely that will make all better I really like how you think you somehow speak for Insurgency.All I'm doing is showing what happening right now and that slowly things are getting better but there is still a long way to go. At least the violence levels have decreased making it just slightly easier for Iraqis to go through the day (albeit still miserable sadly)
It should be easy to understand running away will make thing worse.

 

[No Limit]

You seem to be ignoring a lot of points that have already been made. Things are not slowly getting better, you repeating it doesn't make it true.

Our soldiers kill innocent civillians there all the time:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/the-price-of-loss/

The civilian death toll by US fire was 96 in October, with 23 children among them, while in September US forces and contractors killed 108 Iraqi civilians, including 7 children. In August US troops killed 103 civilians, 16 of them children, and in July they killed 196. In fact, during the last five months US forces in Iraq have killed over 600 Iraqi civilians. Regrettably, as always.

The best thing we could do for them is get the hell out, let them fight their civil war, and then be back to square one.

 

[unozero]

That article is a year old -___- and soldiers don't kill civilians "all the time"
Yes it happens when it happens its sickening. But it doesn't happen every day.
Listen to yourself in the same post you go on about Civilians dying,and then in the next sentence you want them to fight a civil war.
So the link in my opening post is all a lie?

LOL

 

[PimpinPenguin]

I was talking about the Iraqi senate...and you basically made the same non argument as Cpt Stern before you.
many Insurgency groups have moved to form political parties n late 2007 can't find any links right now but I will post some later tonight.
Are you some internet jihadist or something acting all tough and shit lol.


"omg you broke all this stuff ,you are not fixing it fast enough wa so pull out now"

surely that will make all better I really like how you think you somehow speak for Insurgency.All I'm doing is showing what happening right now and that slowly things are getting better but there is still a long way to go. At least the violence levels have decreased making it just slightly easier for Iraqis to go through the day (albeit still miserable sadly)
It should be easy to understand running away will make thing worse.

I would really like to see those links. As the insurgence are against American and the Iraqi Government. Look around they have heavy attacked the police and the armed forces of the Iraqi Government. I don't need to speak for the insurgency over 90% of the Arab Sunni approve of attacking the Government and the coalition forces, does that sound like they are starting to accept.

You show one month were violence is not so bad whoop de doo, it means shit. Next month could be the bloodiest for all we know. And is it so bad to criticise that we've gone in blown them to shit and are not doing no where near enough to rebuild. 5 years since the beggining and thing have not improved for them at all. Simply put the rebuild effort in Iraq is pathetic. How long do you think the coalition is prepared to stay? I know for sure that Britain won't be for long, we can't afford this war anymore. And America doesn't want to hang around much longer.

 

[unozero]

I would really like to see those links. As the insurgence are against American and the Iraqi Government. Look around they have heavy attacked the police and the armed forces of the Iraqi Government. I don't need to speak for the insurgency over 90% of the Arab Sunni approve of attacking the Government and the coalition forces, does that sound like they are starting to accept.

You show one month were violence is not so bad whoop de doo, it means shit. Next month could be the bloodiest for all we know. And is it so bad to criticise that we've gone in blown them to shit and are not doing no where near enough to rebuild. 5 years since the beggining and thing have not improved for them at all. Simply put the rebuild effort in Iraq is pathetic. How long do you think the coalition is prepared to stay? I know for sure that Britain won't be for long, we can't afford this war anymore. And America doesn't want to hang around much longer.

next month could be the bloodiest?

slippery slope much?

Also are you speaking on Americas behalf now? lol





edit: Former Sunni Insurgent Turns to Politics

I'm sure there's more but I wanna play some games now I,ll check back later.




double edit: Just in case I know if Insurgents would turn politics I know that their views would almost %100 conflict with what the U.S wants (shariah law U.S pull out etc...) but if the people want and vote for these changes that just the way it's gonna be at least people would stop dying.
But America won't give in because of suicide bombers etc,giving in to that would have DIRE consequences.

 

[Sulkdodds]

The people in charge of Iraq after the invasion were absolute numbskulls, the post war chaos was one of the major causes of the violence. Petraeus does seem to know what he's doing but even he said that the improvements made are fragile. I think it is possible to avoid an all out civil war but Iraq isn't stable yet and more troops and more civilians will inevitably die in the process of making it stable. There is no good solution anymore, now they have to pick the least bad one.

This, to be honest.

The post-invasion plan was scuppered by poor communication, ideological delusion, incompetence and widespread politicisation.

Further reading.

 

[No Limit]

That article is a year old -___- and soldiers don't kill civilians "all the time"
Yes it happens when it happens its sickening. But it doesn't happen every day.
Listen to yourself in the same post you go on about Civilians dying,and then in the next sentence you want them to fight a civil war.
So the link in my opening post is all a lie?

LOL

I want them to fight a civil war? With all due respect I wasn't the one that invaded. Bush wanted them to fight the civil war, in fact Cheney knew it would happen way back in 1994:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENbElb5-xY

You would be wise not to use straw man arguments.

The fact is they will fight their civil war, a fact you continue to ignore. Doesn't matter if we pull out tomorrow, in 10 years, or in 50 years. As I already repeated.

I never claimed the link in your OP was a lie, I said your conclusion based on that link was arrogant. Do try to keep up. For someone that claims they aren't right wing you certainly seem to share all the traits of a right winger, the biggest one is ignoring simple truths.

 

[unozero]

what truth am I ignoring?
Im just saying that Iraq is salvageble if we try to solve these problems.

 

[No Limit]

what truth am I ignoring?
Im just saying that Iraq is salvageble if we try to solve these problems.

Lol, yes, I know what you are saying. In context of debate you are making a point. However, if you fail to defend your point simply repeating it doesn't do you any good. Does that make sense or do you need a better explaination of how this is supposed to work?

So it would be nice of you to finally put up some kind of defense for this argument keeping in mind everything that has already been said.

What truth are you ignoring? I'm pretty sure I made that extremely clear in the post above:

The fact is they will fight their civil war, a fact you continue to ignore. Doesn't matter if we pull out tomorrow, in 10 years, or in 50 years. As I already repeated.

Not to mention all the other points you have ignored that I made. Such as the fact that we are simply back to 2004 level violance in terms of civilian deaths. That is not progress. And in 5 years when just as many people are dying you are going to be using the exact same talking points.

 

[unozero]

NO PROGRESS WHAT SO EVER HERE,MOVE ALONG



http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc8_1220239113

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Good post unozero ^.-