US officals confirms that white phosporus as a weapon

[Bob_Marley]

"It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants," spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4440664.stm

I would seem that, after their previous denials the US have fiannly admitted to using this substace as a weapon during the seige of Falluja.

They have, however, denied that WP is a chemical weapon

 

[Icarusintel]

eh, the geneva convention takes all the fun out of war anyway

 

[Raziaar]

Well... I can't exactly say i'm surprised... but reading about white phosphorous, its a very mild weapon, when used as an incendiary.

Slightly more complicated burns than a normal fire, and about as much harm to the respiritory system as smoking.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I thought this was obvious...

 

[the_lone_wolf]

Professor Paul Rodgers of the University of Bradford department of peace studies said white phosphorus could be considered a chemical weapon if deliberately aimed at civilians.

so there were chemical weapons in Iraq after all...

 

[bliink]

Well... I can't exactly say i'm surprised... but reading about white phosphorous, its a very mild weapon, when used as an incendiary.

Slightly more complicated burns than a normal fire, and about as much harm to the respiritory system as smoking.

eMedicine indicates that it is much worse:

White phosphorus results in painful chemical burn injuries. The resultant burn typically appears as a necrotic area with a yellowish color and characteristic garliclike odor. White phosphorus is highly lipid soluble and as such, is believed to have rapid dermal penetration once particles are embedded under the skin. Because of its enhanced lipid solubility, many have believed that these injuries result in delayed wound healing. This has not been well studied; therefore, all that can be stated is that white phosphorus burns represent a small subsegment of chemical burns, all of which typically result in delayed wound healing.

Few studies have investigated the degree of tissue destruction associated with white phosphorus injuries. In the experimental animal model, most tissue destruction appears to be secondary to the heat generated by oxidation.

Systemic toxicity has been described extensively in the animal model. Pathologic changes have been documented in the liver and kidney. These changes result in the development of progressive anuria, decreased creatinine clearance, and increased blood phosphorus levels. Depression of serum calcium with an elevation in the serum phosphorus level (reversed calcium-phosphorus ratio) with electrocardiographic changes including prolongation of the QT segment, ST segment depression, T wave changes, and bradycardia also have been observed. Oral ingestion of white phosphorus in humans has been demonstrated to result in pathologic changes to the liver and kidneys. The accepted lethal dose is 1 mg/kg, although the ingestion of as little as 15 mg has resulted in death. Individuals with a history of oral ingestion have been noted to pass phosphorus-laden stool ("smoking stool syndrome").

Wikipedia compares it to napalm rather than regular incendiary sources, and also notes its toxic nature:

Burns to persons struck by particles of burning WP are usually much less extensive than napalm or metal incendiary burns, but are complicated by the toxicity of phosphorus (50 mg being the average lethal dose, LD50), the release of phosphoric acid into the wounds, and the possibility of small particles continuing to smoulder for some time if undetected.

 

[63]

I'm not surprised. I am hungry though.

 

[CptStern]

Well... I can't exactly say i'm surprised... but reading about white phosphorous, its a very mild weapon, when used as an incendiary.

Slightly more complicated burns than a normal fire, and about as much harm to the respiritory system as smoking.

"Purpose: anti-personnel/incendiary (primary), screening (secondary)


The white phosphorus grenade, also known as "Willie Petes", is a horrifically effective device that is officially listed as a screening device for the grey, wispy, light smoke it produces. Most experienced military personnel know better, using them for anti-material and anti-personnel effects. A Willie Pete consists of a light metal container packed with white phosphorus and a small bursting charge. When the charge detonates, it destroys the container, and spreads the white phosphorous, which ignites on contact with oxygen and burns at approximately 2750 degrees standard (27 and a half time the boiling point of water). The only treatments for WP burns are to submerge in water the effected area, and then pick out the particles (which will re-ignite as soon as they are exposed to oxygen), or cover the WP with copper sulphate to deactivate it. Most professional soldiers consider the use of WP-based munitions to be either a barbaric weapon of last resort, or a highly effective weapon with many suitable applications, depending on their personality.


source

 

[Absinthe]

Well... I can't exactly say i'm surprised... but reading about white phosphorous, its a very mild weapon, when used as an incendiary.

Slightly more complicated burns than a normal fire, and about as much harm to the respiritory system as smoking.

You have to be shitting me.

 

[Bait]

In all honesty, though, what were we expecting?

More importantly, were this information more widely spread, what would change? It is no secret that in every war, no matter what shape or form, atrocities occur, and this is clearly no exception. To say otherwise is to be naive or forcefully ignorant. But this kind of weapon usage seems like trying to use a rusty razor to operate on an unwilling patient with one arm and one leg.

 

[Eg.]

Firstly, this is more like thermite then say chlorine gas. A chemical weapon like chlorine will have a direct effect of a person, while the Phosphorous is akin to gasoline.
If I dowse(sp?) you in gas, and set you on fire, its not the gasoline that is killing you, but the fire. more importantly, phosphorous itself does not effect the flesh it touches, only when it comes in contact with its catalyst (oxygen), does it start to burn. Even though that last part is a weak argument, it is what removed Phosphorous from the chemical weapons catagorey.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Nothing wrong with Napalm Lite I guess. :/

Except phosphorous is poisonous.

50 milligrams in your system is lethal. That's an amount 20 times smaller than a single Skittle.

http://www.onfocus.com/cam/2005/skittle_distribution.jpg

 

[Raziaar]

Sheesh people. Don't ****ing rip my head off. I just briefed information about it from wikipedia. I don't actually have any actual knowledge on it. And I misread the stuff on there.

So... sue me.

 

[CptStern]

Sheesh people. Don't ****ing rip my head off. I just briefed information about it from wikipedia. I don't actually have any actual knowledge on it. And I misread the stuff on there.

So... sue me.

where's Angry Lawyer when ya need him?

 

[Raziaar]

where's Angry Lawyer when ya need him?

I was too busy playing X3. Made my first million about that time, and getting my first factory set up... a wheat factory.

 

[Last One In]

It wouldn't be so bad if they just came out and said that they used Wp, but instead they had to lie about it and make everything wishy washy. Why that just makes me want to split an apple! Aggg....*Walks off stage, grabs a clove of garlic, and slices an apple with a kitchen knife.*

 

[Dr. Freeman]

wow :|
so traditional weapons weren't enough and so here come the chemicals? god..:x

 

[15357]

Thats cool.

 

[Jandor]

Thats cool.

Pardon?

 

[Icarusintel]

Thats cool.

i agree

 

[CptStern]

i agree

yes ...I thought you would ...you know, one day you'll probably be in a position to use one of those gernades:

"Most professional soldiers consider the use of WP-based munitions to be either a barbaric weapon of last resort, or a highly effective weapon with many suitable applications, depending on their personality."


I wonder which one you'll choose. Detaching yourself from reality can only last so long

 

[gh0st]

if they made killing terrorists easier i'd use them too.

ding dong, everything is poinsonous. gun powder is poisonous but we dont ****ing call bullets weapons of mass destruction (though i suspect some would). the jet fuel used to power our cobra attack helicopters is poisonous but those cobras arent weapons of mass destruction. hell even napalm isnt a wmd.. they are definitely weapons of destruction but i fail to see where they are MASSIVELY destructive.

 

[Icarusintel]

yes ...I thought you would ...you know, one day you'll probably be in a position to use one of those gernades:

"Most professional soldiers consider the use of WP-based munitions to be either a barbaric weapon of last resort, or a highly effective weapon with many suitable applications, depending on their personality."


I wonder which one you'll choose. Detaching yourself from reality can only last so long

if it means saving my ass, or the lives of my men, then hell yes i'll use it

if it was going to kill civilians i would definitely hesitate and reasses the situation, but if it's against someone who is actively trying to kill me, well, it's kill or be killed

 

[[eXp]Grey]

"gun powder is poisonous but we dont ****ing call bullets weapons of mass destruction"

couse the "gun powder" dont frag their head off, only the metal of the bullet does ... and in most instances there are no living body left, which could be poisoned.

maybe some day the US goverment will pay for the pain they have coused in the world. Maybe not now or in the near future, but hopefully some day.

 

[Bait]

maybe some day the US goverment will pay for the pain they have coused in the world. Maybe not now or in the near future, but hopefully some day.

Why would they do that? Their budget is tight enough as is seeing as how they are pumping 400 billion into better ways of killing people.

 

[gh0st]

Why would they do that? Their budget is tight enough as is seeing as how they are pumping 400 billion into better ways of killing people.

he means we will be punished for our great atrocities

 

[southernman17]

Are you saying you want to see America damaged because of wars we fought?

 

[[eXp]Grey]

i sure didnt mean you.

edit: read carefully!
the US goverment ... are you guys the goverment or what ? dont think so. America is a great country, some ppl from there too - but your goverment sucks on nearly at the same level as the chinese does ... but all under the name of "democracy" and "freedom" (well i know in many ways it is not better here).
They keep playing world police, thats just wrong.

@bait
easy: i hope that they will burn in hell.

 

[Bait]

he means we will be punished for our great atrocities

Personally, I would rather see the US dish out some cash and aid to those that really need it instead of getting "punished".

I would also like to see a gorilla sing "Old Man River"............. so I dunno.

 

[CptStern]

he means we will be punished for our great atrocities

you already have ....it's just the beginning

 

[gh0st]

you already have ....it's just the beginning

its ok, they are getting theirs.

 

[Bait]

Both those pictures ****ing suck, as both are the work of total mindless idiots, who themselves suck as well.

 

[CptStern]

its ok, they are getting theirs.

glad to see you can be so flippant about it, guess it comes from being wet behind the ears with the maturity to match your experience ...oh and there will be countless 9/11's throughout your lifetime and possibly your offspring's as well (hopefully you'll do the rest of the world a favour and forego propagation)

 

[CptStern]

if it means saving my ass, or the lives of my men, then hell yes i'll use it

if it was going to kill civilians i would definitely hesitate and reasses the situation, but if it's against someone who is actively trying to kill me, well, it's kill or be killed

if someone's tryiong to kill I doubt you'd chuck a phosphorus gernade at him, not when I real gernade will do a far better job ...seems to me it's used to smoke/choke/poison people out, so they can be killed as they come out

if they made killing terrorists easier i'd use them too.

yes you seem so eager to join the fray why havent you enlisted yet? put your money where your mouth is, till then you're a teenager with an overinflated ego and unwarrented bravado

 

[short recoil]

By some peoples descriptions you could call anything a chemical weapon.

I have no problem with the US using white phosphorus as a weapon against enemy troops.

In most cases not much burning will occur, only if overused can it be problematic but the same goes for anything.

if someone's tryiong to kill I doubt you'd chuck a phosphorus gernade at him, not when I real gernade will do a far better job ...seems to me it's used to smoke/choke/poison people out, so they can be killed as they come out

It would create a smoke screen, bright white light and completely disorientate/ terrify the enemy, it would be effective to hold back an enemy troop.
The effective area of a phosphorus grenade is much greater than that of a fragmentation grenade.
Yeah they can use them to drive people out, certainly more humane than a flamethrower.

 

[CptStern]

By some peoples descriptions you could call anything a chemical weapon.

I have no problem with the US using white phosphorus as a weapon against enemy troops.

In most cases not much burning will occur, only if overused can it be problematic but the same goes for anything.

funny how it's ok for the US to use questionable weapons but god forbid anyone else use them ....isnt that why you're in iraq in the first place?

 

[gh0st]

yes you seem so eager to join the fray why havent you enlisted yet? put your money where your mouth is, till then you're a teenager with an overinflated ego and unwarrented bravado

actually i have. im going into the marine corps after highschool, i am currently in DEP and waiting for my opportunity to go to pendleton. i admit i wont be active duty for quite some time (until after college is over) but i will be in the marine reserves until school is over and i'm comissioned as an officer.

so **** off.

glad to see you can be so flippant about it, guess it comes from being wet behind the ears with the maturity to match your experience ...oh and there will be countless 9/11's throughout your lifetime and possibly your offspring's as well (hopefully you'll do the rest of the world a favour and forego propagation)

glad to see youre so flippant about 9/11 too.

 

[Cooper]

glad to see you can be so flippant about it

Oh, and you werent? Posting pictures about 9/11 where thousands died. Why don't you look at your own ego for a change.

I see no problem with WP. How is this any different then napalm or flamethrowers? The military has been using phosphorus for a long time, why the big toodoo all of a sudden?

 

[short recoil]

funny how it's ok for the US to use questionable weapons but god forbid anyone else use them ....isnt that why you're in iraq in the first place?

British forces use Phosphorus grenades and motar shells, i'm not sure if they used them in iraq but they have used them in many other conflicts.

Phosphorus munitions have been used in most modern wars.
However these days if there is any hint of a weapon being "evil" the media jumps all over it.

Why don't we just go in with baton guns against ak47's so they can't complain?

And what do you mean "why you're in iraq in the first place"?

 

[CptStern]

By some peoples descriptions you could call anything a chemical weapon.

I have no problem with the US using white phosphorus as a weapon against enemy troops.

In most cases not much burning will occur, only if overused can it be problematic but the same goes for anything.


It would create a smoke screen, bright white light and completely disorientate/ terrify the enemy, it would be effective to hold back an enemy troop.
The effective area of a phosphorus grenade is much greater than that of a fragmentation grenade.
Yeah they can use them to drive people out, certainly more humane than a flamethrower.

sigh, you people will say anything to dismiss the obvious ..here watch this video that has interviews with US soldiers who were actually there:


"REPORTER: What will you tell your child about the battle of Fallujah?

[U.S. soldier] JEFF ENGLEHART: It seemed like just a massive killing of Arabs. It looked like just a massive killing.


REPORTER: Have you seen the effects of these weapons?

JEFF ENGLEHART: Yes. Burned. Burned bodies. I mean, it burned children, and it burned women. White phosphorus kills indiscriminately. It's a cloud that will within, in most cases, 150 meters of impact will disperse, and it will burn every human being or animal.


JEFF ENGLEHART: The gases from the warhead of the white phosphorus will disperse in a cloud. And when it makes contact with skin, then it's absolutely irreversible damage, burning of flesh to the bone. It doesn't necessarily burn clothes, but it will burn the skin underneath clothes. And this is why protective masks do not help, because it will burn right through the mask, the rubber of the mask. It will manage to get inside your face. If you breathe it, it will blister your throat and your lungs until you suffocate, and then it will burn you from the inside. It basically reacts to skin, oxygen and water. The only way to stop the burning is with wet mud. But at that point, it's just impossible to stop.


http://pej.org/html/print.php?sid=3673

WARNING: there's footage of burned and melted bodies

I've seen video of US soldiers murdering wounded fighters in Fallujah, 600 civilians bodies have been accounted for from the seige ...and yet you people think it's ok to do whatever you please? no wonder the world hates you