Valve charging fees to LAN centers for CS

[TeeJay]

The lan centers complaining are the ones who have already paid, dont want to pay anymore and cant afford too.

 

[Chris D]

Originally posted by Maskirovka
i disagree...steam isn't just another version of existing software. valve is grouping all their games under one software license...the steam license.

I said it was a progression. It is progressing the way that things work with our games. It's progressing in the fact that we can automatically update our games. Allowing mod makers to licence their game engines to sell their modifcations/TCs on Steam. Allowing developers to copyright their material. Making leaps and bounds in anti cheat, and authentication to reduce bad gaming experiences for people and to dampen software piracy.

I know we haven't seen all of that stuff in action yet, but it's getting there by going up that rocky road. It'll get there eventually, and I hope a lot more developers catch on to the idea.

 

[Maskirovka]

Originally posted by Xtasy0
1. by the same token you can still run CS 1.5, or CS1.3, i mean hell who cares if you lose compatibility with the rest of the world right? (win95 is no longer supported by M$, so it's very much the same)

2. valve doesn't need to give an excuse actually, heh you should be happy about steam and won running at the same time until steam is where they want it, at least they didnt just say **** it two eyars ago and kill won then.

3. they needed special licenses before as well, it's not a new EULA, it predates steam, only now it will be enforceable, and i see no reason for valve to not enforce it.

4. going a bit far, by providing a brand new platform that will have the functionality of WON+ a bunch of third party programs, and taking down WON when there is no more use for it?

5. they'll alienate lan centers that were illegaly using their games for profit, big deal. as for tournaments, as i said above i'm pretty sure people bring their own systems to tournaments (i can't see pros playing on some lame rig provided by the people running the tourny).

1. it's all fine and dandy until WON goes down and you can't play previous versions of cs anymore...let alone all the other games you paid for. this is new ground here. every version of cs up until now has been completely optional...you can still run a cs beta 1 server if you want. but not after won goes down.

2. yea of course it's nice that they didn't shut won down 2 years ago...but if they did, they wouldn't have been able to sell CS or DoD retail, since everyone would've had to stop playing altogether.

3. i haven't seen the previous EULA, and i don't want to take the time to look through it...show me when you find it

4. i'm not attacking steam as an idea. steam is great and i support it. i just don't like how they're forcing you to play 1.6 and nothing else. the community is losing choice. of course valve has no obligation to keep WON up or anything...i'm just saying it sucks that it'll be going down and we'll all have to play 1.6 or nothing.

5. whatever your argument here, it's still bad to reduce people's choices. the whole point is that iGames is protesting valve's inflexible licensing, and i agree.

for a lan center with 16 machines, they pay $160/month for each license. this adds up to almost $2000 a year. $2000 is a lot of money to many struggling LAN centers. they're already renting their space, paying for electricity/heat/water/etc, a fast internet connection, and buying games.

it's just a kick in the balls is what i'm saying.

 

[Maskirovka]

Originally posted by Chris_D
I said it was a progression. It is progressing the way that things work with our games. It's progressing in the fact that we can automatically update our games. Allowing mod makers to licence their game engines to sell their modifcations/TCs on Steam. Allowing developers to copyright their material. Making leaps and bounds in anti cheat, and authentication to reduce bad gaming experiences for people and to dampen software piracy.

I know we haven't seen all of that stuff in action yet, but it's getting there by going up that rocky road. It'll get there eventually, and I hope a lot more developers catch on to the idea.

like i said i'm not against steam...i totally agree that it's a great idea and a step forward in the way game companies do business. i'm just against two things, basically.

1. eliminating the choice of playing older versions of cs/other mods.

2. forcing struggling LAN centers to pay extra money

 

[genocide604]

That is just plain stupid...:dozey:

 

[Aknot]

ahhhhhh I agree with Xtasy0.

So what you are saying is I can buy a copy of the Matrix on DVD open my basement up and charge people to come in and watch it? Nope cant do it. Same with recoding and or charging people to watch sports.

As for the LAN centers loosing money....Maybe they need to charge more. I cant comment because I have never needed to use one. If people want/have/need to play I guess they will pay. Businesses work on a supply and demand. If there is no demand for it at the level they NEED to charge it is not a good business model, unless of course they make it up with other venues snacks, etc.

 

[staddydaddy]

if the customers want sometihng, companies will supply. Even if fee's are tagged on. Aslong as they're going to post a profit from the sale, they're going to provide it. simple as that

 

[Maskirovka]

Originally posted by Aknot
ahhhhhh I agree with Xtasy0.

So what you are saying is I can buy a copy of the Matrix on DVD open my basement up and charge people to come in and watch it? Nope cant do it. Same with recoding and or charging people to watch sports.

As for the LAN centers loosing money....Maybe they need to charge more. I cant comment because I have never needed to use one. If people want/have/need to play I guess they will pay. Businesses work on a supply and demand. If there is no demand for it at the level they NEED to charge it is not a good business model, unless of course they make it up with other venues snacks, etc.

my local LAN center charges $5/hr or $20 for all day (noon-midnight...but you are rotated out in favor of hourly customers with at least 4 hours guaranteed)
i don't think people would pay more than that.

i only go there because it's a good hangout/meeting place and because my friends and i play for free since we know the manager and owners personally. but i don't think the kids that come in would pay more.

$5/hr is kind of a lot for kids without jobs...and that's most of the customer base. anyone else can afford their own computer, or just comes in for the atmosphere or to play on a LAN instead of dealing with lag online.

this particular lan center defenitely struggles to make ends meet, and forcing them to suddenly pay $2000/year more (JUST FOR VALVE GAMES...WHAT IF EVERY COMPANY DID THIS?) would be pretty rough.

i totally understand the point...they're making money off of valve's creation/property...but if every company started this kind of monthly fee, LAN centers wouldn't exist anymore.

 

[Aknot]

I would like to commend you for your well thought out delivery of your post BTW.

Its hard to really gauge. We (I) do not have clue what they are making, charging, paying etc. But I do know that it would be wrong for others to benefit in that sort of way.

Look at my DVD example above. If I were to just open shop and charge for people to come in to watch movies even though I paid for that one copy I would get a cease and desist post haste.

Games should be no different. They should have to pay a fee for the game and another "fee" for the "rental" (thats all the are doing in essence is renting the game to you) They have paid for the game in probably less then a week of steady business. The rest is profit with regards to the purchase of all the games. That is why a video store has to pay upwards $50 per title, whereas you can USUALLY go out and get it for $19.99. (or a lot less then the price they pay).

 

[Aknot]

As I look and think about it, they (Valve) should charge a yearly fee for LAN centers. Is it going to be a "monthly" type thing or an upfront yearly thing? The article does not say. But I feel they are right to charge a different fee for LAN centers.

It goes without saying. That the LAN centers APPEAR to making hand over fist money. You pay lets say $50 a game. Have 10 seats thats $500. At $5 an hour you would only need 100 hours of players to recoup your investment. Easily obtained in two weeks. The rest is gravy. Now of course you have to pay all the other fees, cost of computers, furnishings, utilities to include internet access. After two weeks the $5 an hour goes to that.

Maybe people when they started this did not think (not just your friends just the whole LAN center thing in general) this out well enough. Something like the dot com rush. It sounds GREAT on paper and as a "short term" investment but in the long run it does not bode well in a business sense. People (Valve) will look at their product and say hey after 100 hours they are pocketing money that we should be part of.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by AudioRage
Unless I see an offical press release from valve about it, I highly doubt anything posted on any website.

an official press release from valve? bah, no such thing

 

[Maskirovka]

Originally posted by Aknot
I would like to commend you for your well thought out delivery of your post BTW.

Its hard to really gauge. We (I) do not have clue what they are making, charging, paying etc. But I do know that it would be wrong for others to benefit in that sort of way.

Look at my DVD example above. If I were to just open shop and charge for people to come in to watch movies even though I paid for that one copy I would get a cease and desist post haste.

Games should be no different. They should have to pay a fee for the game and another "fee" for the "rental" (thats all the are doing in essence is renting the game to you) They have paid for the game in probably less then a week of steady business. The rest is profit with regards to the purchase of all the games. That is why a video store has to pay upwards $50 per title, whereas you can USUALLY go out and get it for $19.99. (or a lot less then the price they pay).

well put. like i said...i understand how all that works, and it totally makes sense. if valve wanted to start charging LAN centers $100 or $150 for games right off the bat to make them more like videos, i'd be fine with that.

valve's breaking new ground here...but you've got to look at it this way...what if every company charged LAN centers $10/month/machine to play their games.

that's $2000 a year for a 16 machine place per game company. that's a ton of money...even if they only had to do it for say...3 game companies.

you said that a LAN center pays for their games after a week of steady business...that's true, but it's not all profit after that. like i said before they still have electricity/heat/etc to pay for...not to mention employees and all the other things that go with owning a small business...like toilet paper and soap for the bathrooms...the list goes on.

 

[Aknot]

will return tomorrow. Need to spend time with the wife. Just to let you know Im not ignoring you. PEACE!

 

[Maskirovka]

Originally posted by Aknot
As I look and think about it, they (Valve) should charge a yearly fee for LAN centers. Is it going to be a "monthly" type thing or an upfront yearly thing? The article does not say. But I feel they are right to charge a different fee for LAN centers.

People (Valve) will look at their product and say hey after 100 hours they are pocketing money that we should be part of.

for the record, they plan on charging $10/month per machine

totally agree though. if i was valve i would be looking at those thousands of hours of people playing cs and thinking of ways to profit from it...and that's what they're doing. i just think they're charging too much. they need to re-evaluate it.

i think the up-front fee (like the video store thing) or a yearly fee would be better than any kind of monthly fee.

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by Waldo
Out of curiosity CS16D, assuming you have a cyber cafe of some kind, do you use normal retail versions of games at your cafe? You know that in the EULA for the retail version, it states...

C. You are entitled to use the Program [Half-Life] and New Materials [Counter-Strike] for your own personal use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell or transfer reproductions of the Program to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Program to others; (ii) exploit the Program or any of its respective parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site.

I suppose any cafe that ignores that license agreement is just a glorious example of a greedy corporate bastard who wants nothing more than a "cut" of someone's hard earned profits. Cafe's ignoring it are just cashing in in on Valve's hard work. Greedy cafes totally ignoring the EULAs. Hmm....

from the steampowered forums, now that they're back up.

btw the original thread is http://steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28345&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 there. (the quote is from page 2).

 

[Korgoth]

Ok im a little slow, but anyway could someone explain exactly how valve would know that these guys were setting up a lan playing CS,

(don't play CS, 56k dial up sucks)

Edit: what about console lans, and console games, like halo and xbox, is there even an EULA?

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by Innervision961
Ok im a little slow, but anyway could someone explain exactly how valve would know that these guys were setting up a lan playing CS,

(don't play CS, 56k dial up sucks)

Edit: what about console lans, and console games, like halo and xbox, is there even an EULA?

you need to contact valve to get a special internet cafe version of steam.

 

[Maskirovka]

i just read that the EULA you referred to...the one with the line about cyber cafes was from the game of the year edition of half-life. if that's the case, are LAN centers that bought the original version of hl bound by that EULA?

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by Maskirovka
i just read that the EULA you referred to...the one with the line about cyber cafes was from the game of the year edition of half-life. if that's the case, are LAN centers that bought the original version of hl bound by that EULA?

i couldn't tell you, i assume when you install game updates a new EULA can be presented, and you need to accept it as well, but i'm not totally sure.

 

[No Limit]

Originally posted by Xtasy0
i couldn't tell you, i assume when you install game updates a new EULA can be presented, and you need to accept it as well, but i'm not totally sure.

You have to agree to it before you install the patch, so yes you have to follow the updated agreement.

 

[Chris D]

Originally posted by Maskirovka
like i said i'm not against steam...i totally agree that it's a great idea and a step forward in the way game companies do business. i'm just against two things, basically.

1. eliminating the choice of playing older versions of cs/other mods.

2. forcing struggling LAN centers to pay extra money

You were dead against Half-Life 1.1.0.0 then? You know, when they changed the net code, making all current/past versions of mods incompatible.

Were you dead set against 3 1/2 inch floppy disks because they'd eventually be the death of 5 1/4 inch disks?

 

[Chris D]

YOU SHOULD CAREFULLY READ THE FOLLOWING END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT BEFORE INSTALLING THIS SOFTWARE PROGRAM. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MAY NOT INSTALL THE SOFTWARE AND MUST IMMEDIATELY RETURN IT FOR A REFUND FROM YOUR RETAILER OR SIERRA.

END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT

B. The Program is licensed to you as a single product. Its component parts may not be separated for use on more than one computer.
C. You are entitled to use the Program and New Materials for your own personal use, but you are not entitled to:
(i) sell or transfer reproductions of the Program to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Program to others;
(ii) exploit the Program or any of its respective parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber café, computer gaming center or any other location-based site ...

Then there's a load of other technical legal kinda stuff, roughly translated:

"LAN centres are ****ed"

 

[Maskirovka]

Originally posted by Chris_D
You were dead against Half-Life 1.1.0.0 then? You know, when they changed the net code, making all current/past versions of mods incompatible.

Were you dead set against 3 1/2 inch floppy disks because they'd eventually be the death of 5 1/4 inch disks?

oh c'mon this argument isn't fair. if i want to use 5 1/4 disks or HL 1.0 i can still install them and play them.

it's one thing to release a patch for a game that fixes bugs, but 1.6 is different...
there's steam for one.
there's new content (riot shield which just about every league has banned) and only a bug fix or two.

i know people have hated previous cs updates, but this is different...1.6 is making people quit cs in droves. a lot of CAL clans have gone inactive, most aren't trying anymore...

and it's fine if the EULA says that...i'm not trying to say it's not there. i'm just saying it's a bit unfair to start enforcing things now...after many LAN centers have been around for years...it's like the cops discovering there's been a law on the books for 100 years that says all parking tickets are $1000, and you just got one.

it's just a kick in the balls...a slap in the face. valve saying "give us your money cause i guess we don't have enough"

i see both sides, and valve could've done it with only their new games...they could've left what everyone likes alone, but they decided to kinda be asses about it...that's all i'm saying.

 

[ASnogarD]

I get what you are saying...but at least Valve are not asking for the lan centers to pay for all the years of unpaid for use.

I am pretty sure that Valve would (once the fiasco with Steam/SC:CZ/HL 2 is sorted) be amenable to suggestions such as a yearly fee... the system is new and would probably require a few tweaks.

As far as Tourneys go, they should be safe enough when the offline/LAN fix comes out which is apperently due soon.

 

[Ch@os A.D.]

This is my first post on this Forum and after all the whinig about the release date being pushed back, the code being stolen and valve not giving out any info, this is a really interestling Thread.
This is just my opinion, so here goes.
Let´s say i open a LAN Center or Internet Cafe or whatever u want to call it. I go out and bye 16 PCs, with installed OS and so on. I also buy 8 copies of Half Life and install it on 8 of my PCs. I agree to the EULA and agree to a contract. So far so good. Have i done anything wrong? I don´t think so.

I go online and download STEAM for the Updates and MODS. New EULA. I accept. I open my business. I charge people...of course i do.I charge them to use MY PCs. I charge them because it is MY internet Connection, I charge them for using MY power supply. I am NOT charging them for playing HL or the MODS.THAT is an option.

So after a few weeks i get a mail from Valve saying this: "Thank you for buying 8 Copies of HL and supporting us and downloading Steam. We have to charge u with an extra Fee now cuz U have an Internet Cafe with Installed Versions of HL and u agreed to the EULA."

In my opinion the new EULA that comes with STEAM or any update is worthless. It is the VERY FIRST EULA that counts. They cannot change a contract half way through. Additional Charges have to be printed on the Box of the Game. I dont see any of that.In my opinion i would be doing nothing wrong.

Now i know that we have a proplem with illegal copies,warez and peer to peer downloading. But does anyone just for a second think that this is going to help matters?
It has to go both ways. Developers want money for their games. Ok. Then make sure your product has some sort of quality,doesnt need a zillion updates to make it run and make sure that people get the most entertainment out of it. And for the downloaders who think they r doing a social service ny stealing i have to say this: You want to be entertained? you want the game u expected? THEN BY THE DAMN GAME OR CREATE ONE.

Like i said this is my opinion and i hope it makes a little sense.

 

[Echelon]

Originally posted by Ch@os A.D.
I go online and download STEAM for the Updates and MODS. New EULA. I accept. I open my business. I charge people...of course i do.I charge them to use MY PCs. I charge them because it is MY internet Connection, I charge them for using MY power supply. I am NOT charging them for playing HL or the MODS.THAT is an option.

but your downloading hl and it's mods for your customers to play them.
in this case you make money by letting them play hl and it's mods, whether you "only" want to charge them for using your pc or for playing the game. you don't act as a person whoi rents the pcs to your friends, but as a kinda bussiness man who want's to make money, that's the difference.

in the end you need the game. without it your pc's wouldn't be worth it and that's what you pay for.

 

[Ch@os A.D.]

No i am not downloading Half Life.I did buy the game in my scenario. 8 copies of it. and to play it online i would need to update it which leads to STEAM.

 

[Maxi]

Um he ment you dl it via steam, same thing as buying. His argument is valid, your making money off theyr game not your pcs.

 

[Ch@os A.D.]

Let´s say you aren ´t sure if u want to buy a certain game but you are not really sure if u like it u go to a Game Store and ask to test it. After testing it for a few minutes u decide u want to buy the game.
The shop owner, no doubt, would make money out of your purchase right? where is the difference in that? Because people may or may not come back to a Internet Cafe to play again?
You go home and have the game, the person that goes home from the Internet Cafe goes home with nothing, well maybe a few hrs worth of fun.

 

[Echelon]

it's not about the customer, but the cyber cafe owner, who gets the money. the shop owner who lets his customers test the game is something different, valve won't demand money in this case, since the shop owner already "bought" it for reselling it. that's something different.