Valve lies? The hacker tells the truth? Is it all they got?

[Eldeorn]

Originally posted by OCybrManO
I had the same person send me a pic of a couple of parts of the source relevant to this topic.
I understand what is being done in that code... and you are incorrect.

I'll keep the posting of actual code to the absolute minimum to prove my point... nothing more.

Here is part of the statement that generates the message:
"Source Engine %t/%s (Build %d - days until 9/30/03)"

%d represents the number of days remaining until Sept 30th, 2003 (negative is before, positive is after).

Need anymore?

Guys, you totally miss one big factor here (well I did too until today ). The scripts, items, monsters and visuals is ALL IN THE CONTENT, not in the source itself.

The source is simply built to handle the information the level designers and scripters gives it, nothing else. With this in mind I might talk against my own ideas originally in my post where I said that the hacker probably have an old build of the source. Thing is though, this is facts how the game works (and any other game really), and whether the source is from september or january does not matter at all, if the hacker doesn't have the latest content to supply it with - which he obviosuly don't.

The content that was spread with the leaked version is obviously not even as new as what is shows in the E3. If the scripts in traptown is not finished, it's beacuse it's in the map file that is simply an outdated version. I would bet my right arm and a leg that Valve have fresh versions of all these maps that are working way better than anything that we seen... The question if they use the current leaked source as latest build or not makes no difference in the end.

 

[fez]

i can imagine that HL2 is actually 'finished' in a sense, or at least almost. what they are doing atm is testing and testing and testing and trying there hardest to fix bugs that have been found. this can take a long time, if they find a big bug, or maybe a bug that is hard to fix. this can delay the release, thats my 2 cents

 

[epote]

first post here hey to all people nice fora

i want to comment on some thing for they are exceptionaly wrong due to misinformation or general lack of knowledge

a)Gabe IS a programer. Perhaps he doesnt write code himself for the game, but he DOES understand c++ code and perhaps he did get involved in the game coding process

b)The sequence is FULLY scripted, and not only THAT. If you dont close the door the soldier does the "kick the door" animation EITHER way. Also weapons change acording to the one the E3 demo used when they should be used

that justifies the extra textures, missing errors etc since probably the E3 was scripted and perhaps post edited.

c)tha hacker DID have access to the FULL valve network, gabe told himself that they kept founding compromized mashines days after the attack

d)If you have root access to a network then you can do-have access to prety much enything, the hacker most definetly covered his tracks by deleting log files and windows records

e)Valve found out the theft because of the leak. They sow what the source code was and comented on that. After that they started finding out network trafic was wrong

Finaly please stop making valve sound like the holly virgin. The 30th release date was a marketing trick. Valve is very forthcoming with the fan base but for crying out loud they make money and nice games they dont feed starved children

 

[Eldeorn]

Re: Re: Valve lies? The hacker tells the truth? Is it all they got?

Originally posted by Ford the Word 1. On (b) you mention a september 28 release, did I miss something or wasn't it september 30th?

I recall from memory that this was the release date stated by GameSpot among other sites, but I can't say for sure now if it really was 28th or 30th.. but I still believe it was 28th Not that it matter much.

Originally posted by Ford the Word 2. If Gabe himself states while talking on the E3 video that this is actual AI and not scripted sequences, exactly how does that really make up for how something is "supposed" to be? Especially if the release wasn't even on time so we all could see how the game actually played?

Tricky one. As in all games and that includes Half-Life 2, there IS scripts, but there is also generic AI code and physics. I think the problem here lies in the definition of the word 'AI'. Fact is, there is no such thing as real AI, but only high level of scripting with various variables to take into consideration. The kick door scipt is an example of this, where the scipt (the actual kicking door open) is combined with AI (running to the door, then check if it's locked). This is where he current leaked build fails (so they say), but I would say it's due to outdated content, not outdated source code - they are two different things.

Originally posted by Ford the Word 3. On (a) didn't the so called 'Anon' hacker also release the pre-alpha of Half-Life 2? Or in what way is the release of the source a 'fact' in comparison to the HL2 pre-alpha? I mean, which 'evidence' points to one fact and not the other?

Well, they are BOTH true, no? I have seen the source with my own eyes and confirmed it's authentity based on my own knowledge in programming, and pretty much the rest of the world have seen the pre-alpha release. So obviously it's all true.

What I would still claim false is that the hacker states that "this is all they got". He can't really know that, and with the information we have now, I would say that he is wrong, considering the quality of the content (maps, graphics and scripts) not even messuring up to the E3 demo's standards. He could still be right that the source is the latest though, but as I said, new source with old content means nothing.

Let's do another car example. even if you put a shiny new Ferrari Engine (source engine) in your old rusty wolkswagen that misses 3 wheels (the old content), you still wont be able to run the car properly, and it will still be ugly as hell even if you have a new shiny engine in it.

Originally posted by Ford the Word 4. As far as i know, Valve never showed a game to the public and stated that "this is how it is going to be" (referring to my remark number 1) but they said that this is how it in fact really was.

There is nothing that says he didn't tell the truth. We still only have the hackers word saying the opposite that "this is all they got", and mind you that considering how old content he (the hacker) has been sitting on, there is NO facts behind the hackker's statement at all proving that Gabe would lie. The fact that his released pre-alpha is pure crap and not even messuring up to the real E3 demo kinda gives you a hint that something is not right with what the hacker got.

This also brings up the topic of the definition of AI. There is alot of scripting in Half-Life 2, and pretty much any movement or actions in the game is based on scripts. The door kicking part in the pre-alpha release is obviosuly purely scripted and time based if you would believe the sources telling you that the door gets kicked in anyway. It could also simply be a bug in the script engine. Well, this content is outdated since a long time, and noone really knows how old it actually is. In the E3 version the whole door kicking scenario maybe actually works properly on itself, using scripts that are triggered by a working AI that tells soldiers to kick in doors.

Originally posted by Ford the Word 5. As for Valve being a part of the community, well, the only time at least I've heard this is when Gabe comes clean that something from them has been stolen and that they wanted help on finding hackers. I did not on one other occasion hear them telling the 'community' information of something about the game delay or why it didn't get released when they said it would be (30th of september). Don't misunderstand me, I don't mean that they "owed" it to us to release it on the 30th, but it would seem strange that they held in on that information until the very last few days instead of telling the "community" that it would be delayed.

Wasn't the source stolen in mid september (19th ?), just before they announced a later release date on the game? Somehow I get the feeling that this is related to why they pushed the release back and would be very understandable. Also, to avoid all this crap with mud slinging, witch hunting, accusations and what not, I would guess that they didn't say anything until it was known in public that a real source of half-life 2 was stolen. Sure it's niec if they tell the community everything, but it has shown that giving some info apparently only feeds the bad side of it as well. There is a saying: "If you give them a little finger, they eat up your whole arm", and in this case I would say there is much truth in it.

Originally posted by Ford the Word And last, it really sucks that the hackers probably made the game's release push back even longer, but Valve could have handled at least the release (or the information of the delay) of the game a LOT better.

Yehay, the hacker truly sucks, and the delay of the game sucks more. However, didn't they tell why it was delayed? I don't remember this, so if you got any official quote by either Valve or Vivendo, it would be a nice read to refresh our memories.

We really have to understand the effect of the source theft and how it affects the victims. It probably turned the whole world upside down for them, and I would imagine that Valve's first reaction was something like "Oh shit, we are so ****ed... now what are we going to do", and the first thing they realized was that they have to rewrite loads of code to prevent hackers from abusing Steam first of all, and secondly look over the multiplayer protocol to protect it from cheating. I would say Steam is by far the most important to fix, since we don't want every other person to run a free copy of the game and use up serials that would actually be real for someone else that bought the game... stuff like that.

 

[alco]

Originally posted by epote
Finaly please stop making valve sound like the holly virgin. The 30th release date was a marketing trick. Valve is very forthcoming with the fan base but for crying out loud they make money and nice games they dont feed starved children

"Due to this RUMOR, people are beginning to ask if it's a scam by Valve, and that the release was never intended to be this year at all. It's kind of funny that one of the biggest and most skillfull game developers in the world suddenly totally fails to make the game they say they are making, and start making up storys and scams to protect themselves... Come on, REALLY. Not even the smallest and crappiest software companies do things like this, and I bet you that *none* of the bigger ones would even consider doing a thing like this when it would hurt them and their community so badly."

 

[Benji]

i believe that Valvle has the game almost finished and will grace us with a holiday release

 

[Eldeorn]

Originally posted by epote
a)Gabe IS a programer. Perhaps he doesnt write code himself for the game, but he DOES understand c++ code and perhaps he did get involved in the game coding process

You are indeed correct that he knows his C++, but his job position is NOT being a programmer, so he doesn't work on the game engine source. Wether he know how or not has nothing to do what he actually do on his job.

Anyway, it's a pretty silly detail to talk about, since it won't prove a thing

Originally posted by epote
b)The sequence is FULLY scripted, and not only THAT. If you dont close the door the soldier does the "kick the door" animation EITHER way. Also weapons change acording to the one the E3 demo used when they should be used

that justifies the extra textures, missing errors etc since probably the E3 was scripted and perhaps post edited.

Hm... Won't comment on the fully scripted door kicking thing, because it's obviously a fact that the released content act this way. However, post editing things like adding missing textures? Naaa, why on earth would they do that when it's alot easier to just add that texture to the map in question? Adding a texture in the map would take like 5 secs, where as post editing it to look real in a movie would take hours probably.

Originally posted by epote
c)tha hacker DID have access to the FULL valve network, gabe told himself that they kept founding compromized mashines days after the attack

d)If you have root access to a network then you can do-have access to prety much enything, the hacker most definetly covered his tracks by deleting log files and windows records

e)Valve found out the theft because of the leak. They sow what the source code was and comented on that. After that they started finding out network trafic was wrong

Yeah, he did have access to more than just Gabe's computer, as Gabe's own post confirms. About covering up... I wonder if it is actually needed at all on windows machines. Ofcourse, I would need to run a network server to really find out how it works, so my knowledge is pretty much limited to what a single client computer logs.

Originally posted by epote
Finaly please stop making valve sound like the holly virgin. The 30th release date was a marketing trick. Valve is very forthcoming with the fan base but for crying out loud they make money and nice games they dont feed starved children

True hehe, in the most powerful positions of the game companies there is no vision to save the world or to make everyone happy first of all. Their goal is to make money. However, in Valve's case, their method of earning that money is to do something that is fun, which makes people happy to buy their products.

The employees on the other hand, do it to earn their monthly paycheck doing something they love with alot of friends that have the same thing in common. Being creative, making something that not only they enjoy, but hopefully everyone else in the world as well enjoys and appreciate. This is why I personally entered the games programming business. I LOVED programming, and it was all I wanted to do beacuse it was FUN. As a bonus I even got paid for it... not that it was that good pay, but enough to have me live a decent life. Ofcourse, I didn't get money to buy Ferrari's and stuff... Only the owners of the most successful companies in the world can afford that.

 

[Craftos]

Originally posted by Eldeorn
a) The hacker has told the truth.

[...]Seriously, people lie and cheat all the time out of spite and to ruin for others they don't like.

b) Valve has NOT told the truth.
[...]A while after the hacker attack it's said that the game once again is delayed to April 2004, but this is at this point NOT officially confirmed by either Valve nor Vivendi. Due to this RUMOR, people are beginning to ask if it's a scam by Valve, and that the release was never intended to be this year at all. It's kind of funny that one of the biggest and most skillfull game developers in the world suddenly totally fails to make the game they say they are making, and start making up storys and scams to protect themselves... Come on, REALLY. Not even the smallest and crappiest software companies do things like this, and I bet you that *none* of the bigger ones would even consider doing a thing like this when it would hurt them and their community so badly.
So my question is... what exactly are the lies that Valve has told? Can anyone give me officiall quotes or give me details that would prove the lies they have told us?
[/B]

Ok, I don't care much about this whole case, but uou as for ultrasolid proofs claiming that everything Valve says is pure crystal fact and true. Obviously hacker can't be trusted because it remains hidded, and probably will remain forever. So your claim has to be right under circumstance set by you. Second thing is what was quoted above, you've said that people lie without reason. So it's more probably that people will lie for money. In business lie is just one of ways to run businesses. It's pure natural way cause it costs nothing and can give huge advantages. You should always lie in professional way (like marketing and public relations), so nobody will caught you. In this particular case only Valve know the truth and whatever they say you can't proof that things are different=> ergo they can lie (or not) about everything.

Anyway I care less about that leak, that's their problem not mine, for me it's just on of more computer games and Valve will survive it. Thing that bothers me now is their software development unprofessionalism and huge problems they make with pushing Steam.

 

[Eldeorn]

Bah, silly 15 min editing limit, seems I have to maky another reply to continue

Originally posted by epote
The 30th release date was a marketing trick.

Only way to assume that the September release was a marketing trick is if you assume it to be true that "this is all they got". We can guess back and forth, but here is what I understand is facts so far:

- The source was stolen, or discovered stolen at September 19th at the latest.

- The hacker released the source package containing HL1, CS1, HL2, TF2, WorldCraft and Havok among things.

- A short while after the theft was known, Valve changed the release date to a holiday release. Question is if they actually announced the reason why the delay... anyone got anything on that?

- The hacker released the "pre-alpha" build, which he claims is "all they got". However, there are strong indications that the content (maps, graphics and scripts) of his release is actually even older than the E3 demo movie, since there is graphics missing among things. The source could actually be the latest build though, but noone really knows this until Valve confirmes it.

- It is discovered in the "pre-alpha" build that the door kicking sequence in TrapTown is a fully scripted sequence. Gabe's explenation when he was showing this scene in the E3 demo was that it's not scripted.. or at least not scripted in the same sense as in Half-Life 1.

 

[Sublime_Guy]

Want more lies from Gabe?? Read "The greatest lie ever told?!?" in the half life 2 discussion forums.

 

[Eldeorn]

Originally posted by Sublime_Guy
Want more lies from Gabe?? Read "The greatest lie ever told?!?" in the half life 2 discussion forums.

Seriously, the post you refer to... Gabe never told a lie about that. He said something like this "any surface can be modified yadayada" describing what can be done with the engine. He did NOT say that "every grenade will make a big crater" or that "the player will be able to modify any surface". It seems some see only what they want to see rather than what it is actually there .

 

[alco]

Originally posted by Eldeorn
- The source was stolen, or discovered stolen at September 19th at the latest.

This is up in the air, actually. From reviewing the email access as compared to Gabe's schedual, they were able to make out that someone else was accessing Gabe's email account. We don't even know if they got that done on the 19th.
They probably only realized that the Source was stolen when it was leaked on the internet.

- A short while after the theft was known, Valve changed the release date to a holiday release. Question is if they actually announced the reason why the delay... anyone got anything on that?

They said that the game was simply not finished. They still had localization and playtesting to do. I doubt they'd delay it because of the hack, since they didn't actually know that anything was stolen. Lots of people suspect that it was also because of Steam.

Originally posted by Sublime_Guy
Want more lies from Gabe?? Read "The greatest lie ever told?!?" in the half life 2 discussion forums.

Don't pimp your thread in here.

 

[P4boy]

FFS Go Back into retirement.

The game industry pays crap - is that why all id drive ferrari's. 1 million games @ $40 plus spinoffs. sponsorship and expansions equals a lot of money for 5 years work. Look at how much 3dRealms made from Duke Nukem and that was written by a teenager who has now retired because he has made so much money.

That info you supplied was about as useful as the released beta.

 

[epote]

You are indeed correct that he knows his C++, but his job position is NOT being a programmer, so he doesn't work on the game engine source. Wether he know how or not has nothing to do what he actually do on his job.

Anyway, it's a pretty silly detail to talk about, since it won't prove a thing

indeed its trivial, albeight it is an indication, or a reason for the source code being in his pc

However, post editing things like adding missing textures? Naaa, why on earth would they do that when it's alot easier to just add that texture to the map in question? Adding a texture in the map would take like 5 secs, where as post editing it to look real in a movie would take hours probably.

my bad what i meant was that they could specificaly fix the errors-bugs-missing textures for that scripted sequence in a manner that is not catholical to the game. not doing photoshop work after thats plain sily

About covering up... I wonder if it is actually needed at all on windows machines. Ofcourse, I would need to run a network server to really find out how it works, so my knowledge is pretty much limited to what a single client computer logs.

no even microsoft doesnt screw things THAT badly logs are kept even in your computer, check out you administrator options

eldeorn:

the delay was anounced before the theft was publicaly known. I dont thing they would have the game ready by 30th but even if they did it would be a bad marketing move to release it then

plus more things are scripted not just the door thing. the cable suspended pilon is also scripted etc

 

[alco]

Originally posted by P4boy
FFS Go Back into retirement.

The game industry pays crap - is that why all id drive ferrari's. 1 million games @ $40 plus spinoffs. sponsorship and expansions equals a lot of money for 5 years work. Look at how much 3dRealms made from Duke Nukem and that was written by a teenager who has now retired because he has made so much money.

That info you supplied was about as useful as the released beta.

The only ones who drive Ferrarris are the owners. Artists and programmers get average pay. Don't forget that the part of the money you pay for a game that the company actually recieves has to go to more places than just salaries.

 

[Eldeorn]

Originally posted by P4boy
FFS Go Back into retirement.

The game industry pays crap - is that why all id drive ferrari's. 1 million games @ $40 plus spinoffs. sponsorship and expansions equals a lot of money for 5 years work. Look at how much 3dRealms made from Duke Nukem and that was written by a teenager who has now retired because he has made so much money.

That info you supplied was about as useful as the released beta.

You got no clue, honestly. As I stated earlier, only the owners of the game companies actually earn that kind of money if at all. We are talking about the TOP developers in the world, and noone else. They are very few and very rare. The workers like programmers, designers, artists and such only get decent wages, nothing special compared to *any* other job. This goes for the ones working in the top companies of the world. You do realize that not everyone is like John Carmack right? He is not only part owner of id Software, but also one of THE top programmers there is out there... Not everyone works at id and are named John Carmack.

Oh and Ken Silverman retired because he was rich from DN3D huh? The owners of 3D realms might have made a load of cash, but Ken? Here's what he himself says about that:

"<snip> After several games were released, things quieted down a bit and eventually I decided (with a lot of help from the parents) to return to college while I was still young."

Look it up, and read up on how many ferraris he actually have at http://www.advsys.net/ken/

 

[Hallucinogen]

The bottom line is, that the "LOSER" stole a very old build ... older then the build that was shown at E3.
There is TONS of shit missing, and most of the maps from E3 are outdated which means there are NEW versions of them ..... thats why Valve didnt panic and kept everything cool.

 

[Saltpeter]

Originally posted by Hallucinogen
The bottom line is, that the "LOSER" stole a very old build ... older then the build that was shown at E3.
There is TONS of shit missing, and most of the maps from E3 are outdated which means there are NEW versions of them ..... thats why Valve didnt panic and kept everything cool.

Applause!

 

[Hallucinogen]

Originally posted by Saltpeter
Applause!

Thank you, thank you every much

 

[Ford the Word]

Re: Re: Re: Valve lies? The hacker tells the truth? Is it all they got?

Originally posted by Eldeorn
Yehay, the hacker truly sucks, and the delay of the game sucks more. However, didn't they tell why it was delayed? I don't remember this, so if you got any official quote by either Valve or Vivendo, it would be a nice read to refresh our memories.

We really have to understand the effect of the source theft and how it affects the victims. It probably turned the whole world upside down for them, and I would imagine that Valve's first reaction was something like "Oh shit, we are so ****ed... now what are we going to do", and the first thing they realized was that they have to rewrite loads of code to prevent hackers from abusing Steam first of all, and secondly look over the multiplayer protocol to protect it from cheating. I would say Steam is by far the most important to fix, since we don't want every other person to run a free copy of the game and use up serials that would actually be real for someone else that bought the game... stuff like that.

Hmmm, as far as I recall, at the time when Valve announced the delay, about 6 days before the 30th, they did not state any specific reason. I cannot really remember any 'official' reason stated by Valve for the delay either before or after the 30th. Gabe stated that there has been a leak, but I can't remember reading anything about the delay... Anyone else maybe has some solid info on this?

Oh, and about the difference between 'AI' and 'scripted', I've seen the beta in action. Since I don't want to brake any rules in this forum, I'll only say this, NO DOUBT I WILL BE BUYING THIS GAME!!!