VALVe losing gamers?

[hl-er]

I've been waiting for HL2 and Doom III for more than a year now, and I was really anticipating HL2 this month, just to hear about this crappy delay.
Look guys, I'm a coder, and I've downloaded the source after hearing about the delay, and all I can say is that first, it's the whole engine, not small portions like one of VALVe members said, if you don't believe it, read Gabe response hours after the source code theft news.
Second, the source isn't near complete at all, and I guess it was impossible to release it by the end of the month, it's full of notes of bugs, stuff needs to be fixed...
So my guess is, VALVe knew they wouldn't be able to release soon, so they just used the theft thinggy to delay it.
As for the CDKey code thing, it's not in the leaked source, I assure.
The only reason I see for the delay is to recode network stuff, otherwise it would be extremely easy to cheat.
Another thing, why the heck does Steam support DRM stuff? I don't want PC software to control my PC.
Now compare it to Doom III, Doom III will be released when it's done, and there is no DRM in it.
I was really eager to get a copy of HL2, but after seeing how VALVe is lying to their customers, and the way Steam works, eh, no thanks.

Please respond in a civilized way, I'm not flaming here, so should you.
Thanks.

 

[Shuzer]

First off, you're going solely on the assumption that the thief got into VALVe's main source computer. As far as you, or anyone else knows, it could be from a backup drive, it would explain alot of inaccuracies seen with it compared to the E3 presentation (lipsyncing, baracade/strider scene maps not there, missing models, some stuff not working right, poor optimization in some areas..)

I don't have a second off, so.. yeah

Edit: Spelling error

 

[zitbug]

Originally posted by hl-er
Look guys, I'm a coder, and I've downloaded the source after hearing about the delay, and all I can say...

Ummm, not a good idea to admit you downloaded this beta...but then again it's not me saying it so what the hell :cheers:

With regards to it being a delaying tactic, I think it's also not a good idea to shout out about this either. I doubt that a reputed software developer like Valve, or for that matter any other company, would freely admit to being hacked to hellsville and back - this would not sit well with their investors and it would be silly when they could come out and say it without loosing too much face.

All in all, I don't think this thread will last long...

:dork: :dork: :dork:

 

[Shuzer]

I'd have to agree with zit, not gonna last long.. I also notice that he compares HL2 to Doom 3, and reports that he'll be buying Doom 3, and not HL2.. hmm

Anyway, last I checked, most people who are computer savy, especially a "coder", has little to no issues with Steam. That also makes me wonder.. I'm not one to flame though, so I'll stop making assumptions

 

[silent]

Damn, it scares me that so many people say the source is intact and full. A couple things come to mind:

The E3 videos are fake
This is a newer and different source file (possibly for h3?) than the hl2 source file
This is an incomplete source that was on Gabe's computer for some reason.
Jesus is not a jew.

I hope to god this was the beginning of a new source. I swear if those E3 video are fake then nobody and I mean nobody will trust Valve again.

 

[hl-er]

first of all, when I tried to download the code, servers were heavily rained by requests, and download speeds were very low, huge numbers of people downloaded it, so it's quite hard (if not impossible) to get every single guy downloaded the source.
Secondly, I'm not saying that VALVe pretended to have the source stolen, I'm just syaing the it happened, so they used it to delay the game even more.

 

[qckbeam]

zitbug, I'm curious, when did stating that you downloaded the beta become "illegal"

I don't think Valve is going to loose any gamers. The beta really got me excited, I know PHL and even this site like to say it's a buggy POS, but it's really alot of fun to play and just got me (and a whole lot of others) very excited to play the full thing.

Edit: Oh and while the source to the engine is full and functional. The game code (AI, player movement, weapons) is old and buggy not to mention it has many commments in it which point to it being E3 stuff.

 

[Shuzer]

Originally posted by qckbeam
... but it's really alot of fun to play and just got me (and a whole lot of others) very excited to play the full thing.

Exactly. Although the theft sucks, it's a good advertisement for onlookers to see what HL2 is going to offer and how good it'll be.. driving around in the buggy is alot of fun

 

[hunteraz]

Valve could subpoena Halflife2.net to give them the IP's of posters saying they downloaded it.

Anyways, on to the topic -- the beta has lots of people excited for the full release now, and why wouldn't it -- this is in theory a good business marketing technique.

"Damn, that game rules and it's not even completed, it's bugged to shit, but it STILL rules, it's still fun to mess w/ phsyics, omg I can't wait for full version" -- etc, etc.

I think that this game will still make tons of money, and I don't think that the source code leak is going to damage them very bad.

 

[hl-er]

Originally posted by silent
Damn, it scares me that so many people say the source is intact and full. A couple things come to mind:

The E3 videos are fake
This is a newer and different source file (possibly for h3?) than the hl2 source file
This is an incomplete source that was on Gabe's computer for some reason.
Jesus is not a jew.

I hope to god this was the beginning of a new source. I swear if those E3 video are fake then nobody and I mean nobody will trust Valve again.

You got my point, and the source code date is 9/19 it's not old or anything, it's what they had when the theft occured.
Those who are coders know what I'm talking about, source code for big projects isn't usually stored on every coder's computer, it's stored on a main server, coders download files from the server, modify it, and then upload it back.
And for those who still don't believe that the source is real, some people got it to compile and got exe files, those exes didn't run though because they didn't find the media files.
I couldn't compile the code because I don't have the program VALVe use to code.

 

[qckbeam]

Originally posted by hunteraz
Valve could subpoena Halflife2.net to give them the IP's of posters saying they downloaded it.

Well, I think Valve would need more evidence than some posts on a forum to get a subpoena for all our IP's.

 

[Unnamed_Player]

I think that most of the hardcore gamers left Valve's community a long time ago. I know I stopped playing because the game basically became populated with a bunch of 12 year olds trying to look cool to all their dumbass friends and constantly accusing anyone who beat them of cheating.

That's probably why HL2 was so highly anticipated. It was going to bring some of the hardcore back to the community.

 

[hl-er]

hmm, hey guys, I'm talking about the source leak, not the beta, there IS a difference.

 

[Shuzer]

Originally posted by hl-er
hmm, hey guys, I'm talking about the source leak, not the beta, there IS a difference.

Not really. The beta is running on the compiled, leaked source

 

[hunteraz]

Someone saying "I downloaded this file" is a direct admission of guilt, what more do you need? Subpoena that users IP, confer with the ISP, check the bandwidth usage for that day(s), check the computer, etc.

That's if someone was going to go all out on a person who downloaded the game, but, it wouldn't be the weirdest thing that's happened. -- but then again, if someone admits to it, why not take the easy target and nail them?

-----------------------------------

Back on topic replying to Unnamed_Player;

I don't even like the MultiPlayer versions of HL1 or CS1, they aren't fun, way too repetetive, no new content get's very boring. Mods are ok, but same thing.

HL1 can be played over and over in single player mode and you can do things different ways, speed up time, play the mods in different ways.

I don't like dealing with the hassle of multiplayer hacks / cheats, it's a huge pain in the neck and isn't worth my time to deal with it.

 

[qckbeam]

Originally posted by hl-er
You got my point, and the source code date is 9/19 it's not old or anything, it's what they had when the theft occured.
Those who are coders know what I'm talking about, source code for big projects isn't usually stored on every coder's computer, it's stored on a main server, coders download files from the server, modify it, and then upload it back.
And for those who still don't believe that the source is real, some people got it to compile and got exe files, those exes didn't run though because they didn't find the media files.
I couldn't compile the code because I don't have the program VALVe use to code.

The source code is real, you can create a working hl2.exe and load up maps through the console. You just need a tool and a few other things to make it compile correctly (won't talk about it here as I would probably be banned). But the game code is incomplete and some of it is E3 stuff (going by the coders comments in the actual code). So the Hacker probably got 1/3 of the game code from Gabes machine and all the code to the engine. That would explain why those of us who play the beta experience errors with things like AI. The AI code (which is game code) is missing or incomplete.

So to recap, the full engine was stolen, 1/3 of the game code was stolen, an unknown amount of content was stolen. The beta is an incomplete compile and the hacker obviously didn't get all of Valves stuff.

 

[hl-er]

Originally posted by hunteraz
Someone saying "I downloaded this file" is a direct admission of guilt, what more do you need? Subpoena that users IP, confer with the ISP, check the bandwidth usage for that day(s), check the computer, etc.

That's if someone was going to go all out on a person who downloaded the game, but, it wouldn't be the weirdest thing that's happened. -- but then again, if someone admits to it, why not take the easy target and nail them?

...

An turn VALVe into another RIAA, VALVe need the IPs of those who stole the code, not those who downloaded it.
On the other hand, VALVe can't do anything with a post on the Internet, they need an evidence, and I'm afraid they won't find any thing suspicious if they check my bandwidth usage, cuz, I got the source code using something else other than my IP...

 

[zitbug]

It's those '12 year olds' that are keeping Valve in business long after the dust died with the single player game.

Sure there is cheating, but it's not so bad that you don't ever want to play the game.

I'm sure Valve will rake in the dollars over this one, once it's finally complete and released. And in my guesstimate, they deserve every one of the new Ferrari's they get. Hope they don't get reckless and drive themselves into walls. We do want Half Life 3 btw...

 

[silent]

Originally posted by qckbeam
The source code is real, you can create a working hl2.exe and load up maps through the console. You just need a tool and a few other things to make it compile correctly (won't talk about it here as I would probably be banned). But the game code is incomplete and some of it is E3 stuff (going by the coders comments in the actual code). So the Hacker probably got 1/3 of the game code from Gabes machine and all the code to the engine. That would explain why those of us who play the beta experience errors with things like AI. The AI code (which is game code) is missing or incomplete.

So to recap, the full engine was stolen, 1/3 of the game code was stolen, an unknown amount of content was stolen. The beta is an incomplete compile and the hacker obviously didn't get all of Valves stuff.

You just cleared up a whole bunch of crap for me. You might want to post this as its own thread because you answered half of my questions.

 

[uncle-argyle]

LOL! I still get a kick out of ppl saying I turned all these ip's over to valve! First question why? As far as I know this hacker released HL2 before valve did! Which make this little twerp kind of like robin hood.

So man let this subject die because If you havent heard HL2 is now open source.

 

[Unnamed_Player]

I love that people are still batting around the "one third" stuff when the guy who made that statement has all but admitted that he hasn't spoken to anyone at Valve in at least a year and he was talking out the other side of his ass. Valve still maintains that they don't know what was taken or how much.

Now 1/3 of the game content I might buy after seeing the "beta". But 1/3 the game code is a complete crock.

 

[Shuzer]

Originally posted by uncle-argyle
LOL! I still get a kick out of ppl saying I turned all these ip's over to valve! First question why? As far as I know this hacker released HL2 before valve did! Which make this little twerp kind of like robin hood.

So man let this subject die because If you havent heard HL2 is now open source.

Somebody flog this fool :sniper:

 

[Shuzer]

Originally posted by Unnamed_Player
I love that people are still batting around the "one third" stuff when the guy who made that statement has all but admitted that he hasn't spoken to anyone at Valve in at least a year and he was talking out the other side of his ass. Valve still maintains that they don't know what was taken or how much.

Now 1/3 of the game content I might buy after seeing the "beta". But 1/3 the game code is a complete crock.

YOU, my friend, are confusing something else for the how much code was stolen, question.

The guys at halfliferadio.com went to VALVe, they were informed that 1/3 of the code was stolen.

Days later, a Vivendi highup claimed that HL2 was pushed back four months, to April 2004. Later, it was reported that "he was speaking out of his butt" and that he hadn't talked to anyone at VALVe in over a year.

 

[staddydaddy]

Originally posted by hl-er
I've downloaded the source and all I can say is that first, it's the whole engine, not small portions like one of VALVe members said

As for the CDKey code thing, it's not in the leaked source, I assure.

CDkey authorization is part of the over all code. You're arguing with your own self moron.

 

[qckbeam]

monster facial, what the **** is wrong with you? hl-er never said he was taking the code and using it for his own benefit. He looked at it to see what it was. Stop jumping to conclusions you dumbass.

 

[uncle-argyle]

From what I have seen on my coding buddys machine it's more than 1/3! being a mod maker C++ coder I can say for sure that the code I have seen on a friends machine is well over 270 meg! from what I know of C++, Compiling is really easy if you see a need to do it.It's all commented really well.

P.s I never compiled it! or kept it! out of some remorse for Valve & gabe.

 

[Unnamed_Player]

Originally posted by monster facial
hl-er,

I don't know what kind of coder you are, but if you are a game coder then you shouldn't be looking at this code. It's stolen intellectual property, ie other ppl's ideas and 5 years work. They've got the most talented game coders in the industry. That's why YOU would never get a job at Valve and you know it. This stuff is way above your head, man. But go ahead, copy everything, smartass.

How would you like it if you coded on something for 5 f*cking years and every failure would get it for free?

Blah, blah, blah...

Stop trying to push your morals and ethics on everyone else. I swear, you're like those people that come to your door and want to tell you about the "greatness of Jesus Christ". No one gives a ****! You're either preaching to the converted or talking to a wall.

 

[Shuzer]

270 mb? Must've extracted it twice..

 

[hl-er]

monster facial:
I downloaded it for curiousity nothing else, I don't work as a coder, it just happened that I know how to code and that I can read code, I download it to know whether it was actually the real engine or just a fake (HL SDK maybe?) code.
so stop whining like a moron.


staddydaddy:
Huh? CDKey code is part of a game engine, go figure.

 

[qckbeam]

Their needs to be a distinction made here about what code is what.

Engine code: All was taken. Controls how things are drwn to the screen, how sounds are played, how files are loaded, netcode, etc. It can be compiled into a working exe.

Game Code: 1/3 seems to have been stolen. Controls how AI reacts, how weapons function, how the player moves. This can be used partially in the beta but is not complete.

Content: model's, sounds, etc.

 

[uncle-argyle]

Haha! Shuzer Well there are partial versions of this leaked source.

 

[Shuzer]

Originally posted by uncle-argyle
Haha! Shuzer Well there are partial versions of this leaked source.

Yes.. yes I know I'm just trying to tell you that you combined two stories into one, that's all :cheers:

 

[silent]

Because the engine is out, people who know what they're doing can release a whole game by themselves and their friends. Now this will most likely not happen, because Valve would come a knocking and say hey, this is our engine and you used it without permission. Now go to jail.

Hacker/cheaters on the other hand can use this to find the code's weaknesses.

 

[hl-er]

monster facial,
Nobody will pay attention whatsoever to you opinion while you flame, please keep posts civilized, thanks.
And, make sure of your facts before you post, how did you figure out that I downloaded the code to create my own engine out of it, or just copy parts of code?
This would be silly, professionals can easily tell if someone stole the code and published another game based on it.

 

[uncle-argyle]

I agree silent Thats is a really bad thing because there is steam code in the leaked source also! Which means they need to ditch that whole damn steam client! It really sucks. My mod loaded really well with HL1 I hope that If anything good come's out of this leak it's to ditch steam.

 

[Joneleth]

VALVe losing gamers?

No.

 

[Joneleth]

I agree silent Thats is a really bad thing because there is steam code in the leaked source also! Which means they need to ditch that whole damn steam client! It really sucks. My mod loaded really well with HL1 I hope that If anything good come's out of this leak it's to ditch steam.

Steam will not be "ditched." Steam's code will be changed until it is once again secure.

 

[silent]

hl-er and monster have a problem
In my opinion someone should mod em
The reason I rhyme is cuz the system will finally listen
That or beat em with crowbar that in night will glisten
Coding is tough for some and easy for others
Easier to do without nagging brothers
this guy who stole source is gonna die
I'll knock his ass sky high!
Hooray!

Actually, I don't think you guys should be modded, just had to make a rhyme.

 

[silent]

Why thank you, it's my new hobby

 

[hl-er]

Originally posted by monster facial
hl-er

My whole post was made on the assumption that you are a professional game coder. That's why I started with "I don't know what kind of coder you are..."

Also, if you merely wanted to check whether it's the real deal, why all this paranoia with d/l it not from your own computer? And how come you were savy enough to find the source code without finding an appropriate compiler on the web?

Lastly, code can off course be rewritten, once you looked at it. Once it's compiled into machine code it will be very difficult to prove that you were "inspired" by Source.

There you go, no flaming, take me seriously now.

If you don't know what kind of coder I'm why did you assume that I'm a pro game coder? sounds weird huh?
I don't want to discuss compiling source to get binary files, but it need MSVC++, and I don't have it, getting it off the net is piracy this time.
When I downloaded HL2 source I didn't know if it was real or not, so I wanted to check it out, got the stuation?
As for rewriting code, I can easily tell if a game is based on engine X (Q3 for example) or not, no need to check source code or even assembly, just by seeing how effects look, how shadows are implemented, what kind of physics the game has...
Same applies to HL2 engine when it's officially released.
Hope I cleared things out for you now.