Valve's future in developing game engines?

[fizzlephox]

I didn't really know what forum to place this in since I couldn't find one concerning Valve or Source in particular.

Source Engine Information

Source seems like a really great engine. It offers a multitude of tools and effects to design some truly beautiful games. Half-Life 2 will be the finest showcase of the engine but as of yet I haven't heard of too many other games being developed with it. Valve's main focus seems to be on finishing Half-Life 2, starting work on the third installment of Half-Life, supporting the mod community that made them what they are today (although I hope they do more, they once said they'd release the SDK before the game), along with continuing their line of succesful multiplayer mods/games.

Quake/Doom 3 Technology Information

Id's Doom 3 engine has several great developers who've already stated that they've started their own projects with Carmack's engine. Developers such as Raven Software, Gray Matter, and others (feel free to correct me) all have games using the engine. Carmack's Quake line of engines has also been licensed to a number of parties and seen a long productive life cycle that has produced and influenced many fine games. Carmack also revealed in a post concerning his Armadillo Aerospace involvment that he's already begun work on a new engine in addition to his work on rocketry.

Unreal Engine Information

The Unreal engine seems to be ahead of everyone else though. Epic Games has licensed its engine (at a current price of around $350,000) to a large number of developers, some of whom have made some really memorable games with the engine. Of course everyone's also seen what the latest Unreal Engine 3.0 is capable of. Epic Games no longer works primarily as a developer but more as a creator and purveyor of the latest gaming engines. Who can blame them with all the revenue engine licenses must gain them.

Id's a great developer, they are far more experienced in developing and licensing out game engines than many developers. They are the oldest players in the engine licensing business.

Epic Games now almost soley concentrates on putting their engine technologies at the top of the list and catering to the largest portion of developers.

Valve seems to be focused on furthering their line of self-developed games, the mod community surrounding their games, and Steam. As far as I know Source has only been licensed to Troika to develop Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. I don't really see anything that points to the fact that they want to become a major player in the engine development business.

So what's your opinion?

 

[jackofthetrade32]

It just shows that valve doesn't really have a great engine. haha
However, I won't know until the game is released.
Also, why allow other people to use the engine before the game is even out?
That is kindof dumb.

 

[[Dragoon]]

It just shows that valve doesn't really have a great engine. haha

Ye shall be tarred and feathered at dawn. Prepare thy self.

 

[Sparta]

Actually Valve have already got two developers using their engine. Troika, and the people who made Arcanum, if i'm correct.

 

[Sparta]

It just shows that valve doesn't really have a great engine. haha
However, I won't know until the game is released.
Also, why allow other people to use the engine before the game is even out?
That is kindof dumb.

The Engine is complete, the game however, isn't.

 

[jackofthetrade32]

A developer would be stupid to get a engine license for a engine that they have never seen. If any developer will do that, then I WOULD NEVER BUY THEIR GAME!
If they do, it just proves that they looked at the stolen source code. Caught in action. wow.

 

[fizzlephox]

Actually Valve have already got two developers using their engine. Troika, and the people who made Arcanum, if i'm correct.

Those are the same people. Troika developed Arcanum. It was an honest and minor mistake though, just thought I'd correct it.

edit- ok nevermind. I didn't remember thar the developers of Arx Fatalis also licensed it out. Thanks for reminding me. They did say they were devloping a first-person RPG with Source I think. Sorry.

A developer would be stupid to get a engine license for a engine that they have never seen. If any developer will do that, then I WOULD NEVER BUY THEIR GAME!

They do that all the time. The people who licensed Source have seen it in action and probably seen alot more than you or me ever have. Just because a game using the engine hasn't been released doesn't mean no one has seen the engine. Many people have licensed out the Doom 3 license even though there hasn't been a game utilizing the engine to hit the market yet.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

e some really memorable games with the engine. Of course everyone's also seen what the latest Unreal Engine 3.0 is capable of. Epic Games no longer works primarily as a developer but more as a creator and purveyor of the latest gaming engines. Who can blame them with all the revenue engine licenses must gain them.

tim Sweeney has stated that Epic make more money from game sales than from engine licenses.

 

[Sparta]

Wait it wasn't Arcanum, it was Arx Fatalis. or something like that

Also JackOfTrade32, you're a complete moron. Valve and Id are both doing the same thing. Selling their engines to other developers before their games are even out.

And i also think Splinter Cell was the first game that used the Unreal Warfare engine before Unreal 2. I'm not sure though. Or did UT 2003 come out before Splinter Cell....eh i don't know

 

[jackofthetrade32]

Thanks for the thought. However, you may want to rethink who is a moron. Do you still believe the world is still flat?

 

[fizzlephox]

tim Sweeney has stated that Epic make more money from game sales than from engine licenses.

"A non-refundable, non-recoupable license fee is due on execution of the agreement. The cost is US $350,000 for one of the available Unreal Engine 2 platforms, plus US $50,000 for each additional platform. A royalty of 3% is due on all revenue from the game, calculated on the wholesale price of the product minus (for console SKUs) console manufacturer fees. In the case of massive-multiplayer online games, the royalty is also due on the additional forms of revenue including subscriptions and advertisements."

-Epic Games on Unreal Engine licensing information

Is it talking about the sale of self-developed games or games using the engine. I dunno I'm not trying to argue or be a jerk, but I don't know exactly what Tim Sweeney meant but it can mean several things when you come down to it with all the royalties on game sales and subscription fees from MMO games using the engine.

 

[Sparta]

Thanks for the thought. However, you may want to rethink who is a moron. Do you still believe the world is still flat?

Hey Pi Mu Rho, can we get rid of this guy now?

 

[Smawg]

All i know is that half-life 2 has source, and source is the SHEE-IT

 

[Kazuki_Fuse]

Troika made Arcanum. I can't remember the name of the other developer who is using Source.

 

[Sparta]

Arkane Studio is the other developer

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Thanks for the thought. However, you may want to rethink who is a moron. Do you still believe the world is still flat?

Your post really wasn't all that well thought-out. I don't think you've got much room to talk here.

 

[fizzlephox]

Besides Arkane Studio and Troika are there any other developers using Source instead of the Unreal or Doom 3 engines?

 

[PvtRyan]

A developer would be stupid to get a engine license for a engine that they have never seen. If any developer will do that, then I WOULD NEVER BUY THEIR GAME!
If they do, it just proves that they looked at the stolen source code. Caught in action. wow.

My God... did your mother drop you on the head or something? From a third story window?

But thanks for your clever analyzing, now go and sit in the corner again and try not to choke on your own saliva.

 

[iamaelephant]

Jesus that jackofthetrade32 guy is a prick.

Anyway, this is a pretty interesting article, cheers fizzlephox.

I still firmly believe that id is the king of the engine world. We will have to wait and see, but I believe that the Doom 3 engine is superior to the Source engine.

 

[aeroripper]

I think Valve with Source is more about the mod community making games with their engine than other companies and they do profit off of it. Whether its more people buying HL2 to mod the engine or really good mods that come out of it that they put on retail to make even more money.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Jesus that jackofthetrade32 guy is a prick.

Anyway, this is a pretty interesting article, cheers fizzlephox.

I still firmly believe that id is the king of the engine world. We will have to wait and see, but I believe that the Doom 3 engine is superior to the Source engine.

Depends what the potential licensee is after.

We're considering licensing Source for a project. Doom 3 isn't even in the running, because it's not really suited to the type of game we're making.

 

[PvtRyan]

Depends what the potential licensee is after.

We're considering licensing Source for a project. Doom 3 isn't even in the running, because it's not really suited to the type of game we're making.

Combined with your sig, that makes me very very curious

Who's "we"? I assume it's a commercial product (since you're thinking about licensing it) right?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Yes, it's a commercial project. I'm working with a group of ex-Westwood Studios employees on a project.

And I can't discuss it any more detail than that

 

[Wilco]

I assume these are the folks that didnt jump to EA Pacific? or are u with them?

 

[lans]

Jesus that jackofthetrade32 guy is a prick.

Anyway, this is a pretty interesting article, cheers fizzlephox.

I still firmly believe that id is the king of the engine world. We will have to wait and see, but I believe that the Doom 3 engine is superior to the Source engine.

Maybe so, but (for example) being an adventure/ RPG developer I'd be more intrested in valve's facial expression technology. Similarly, as a stealth game developer - I'd prefer the Doom 3 engine becuase of it's unified lighting/shadowing system. So it isn't the matter of which engine is superior - it's the matter of what is more useful.

 

[PvtRyan]

Yes, it's a commercial project. I'm working with a group of ex-Westwood Studios employees on a project.

And I can't discuss it any more detail than that

Ok.... I mean... a little bit of info won't hurt anyone will it? Awwww come on! :burp:



But in what pricerange is Source actually and are there multiple "packages"? And how much sourcecode do you get when you license it? The whole deal, so everything there is, or just a very big SDK?

 

[Shinobi]

ID has a sort of second party relationship with certain developers who repeatedly use their engines,,, Sounds like maybe that's something valve is hoping to do with troika and arcane,,

allows for better communication especially when working on an engine that wasn't finished.. if they had too many licenses they'd probably spend all their time on the phone with the engine buyers,, plus, troika is one of my favourite development teams around, them using source is a match made in heaven for me,, arcanum was awesome

 

[StardogChampion]

Wait it wasn't Arcanum, it was Arx Fatalis. or something like that

Also JackOfTrade32, you're a complete moron. Valve and Id are both doing the same thing. Selling their engines to other developers before their games are even out.

And i also think Splinter Cell was the first game that used the Unreal Warfare engine before Unreal 2. I'm not sure though. Or did UT 2003 come out before Splinter Cell....eh i don't know

I think it was America's Army that first used the UWarfare engine before Epic had released a game using it. I remember downloading it just to see the engine

 

[guchi]

very nice article...

the source engine is good for mods, thats where valve will lead.

 

[$niper]

and it'll be interesting to see the battle for mods. Two juggernaut engines out at the same time... Who will the mod teams flock to? Sure, HL1 did amazingly well, but Id's got some serious history of courting good mods too.

Not really. Most id game-mods tend to be different forms of deathmatch. Team Fortress was the most original Quake mod as far as I'm concerned, though.

 

[MultiVaC]

Yeah, and let's face it, popularity-wise no mod of an id game has ever had a dream of reaching CS status, and I've never played any Quake (1,2, or 3) mods as good as DoD and NS. id has always been the giant of engine licensing, while Half-Life has the massive mod community. I don't think either will change.

 

[FISKER_Q]

Yes, it's a commercial project. I'm working with a group of ex-Westwood Studios employees on a project.

And I can't discuss it any more detail than that

Like Joe Kucan?

I think the source engine will be unique.

It's kinda like throwing a rock in the sea. Source and thereby the source games will gain continued support based on valve's earnings and releases.

The ID engines were primarily only exploitfixes and etc.

 

[Devilphish]

For a first try at making engines, Valve didn't do half bad. They ended up with a piece of software that is almost perfect for the game they are building, but it won't be liscensed much by other developers. Valve will put all their other sequels on their engine, ofcourse. Other than that no more than a small handfull of people will liscense Source, including the two known RPG developers. Source is a nifty piece of software, but Valve's first attempt is no match for Carmack's tried and proven genius. You can compare the known liscensees of both engines and it is clear which will com eout on top in the next generation of games.

 

[flo_Orian]

Also, why allow other people to use the engine before the game is even out?
That is kindof dumb.

Raven is already developing quake4 with the doom3 engine afaik. read the recent iview with tim and todd from id.

 

[fizzlephox]

Ok everyone knows that the jackofthetrade guy's either a troll or an idiot or maybe even both. Anyways thanks to everyone who said I'd written a nice article.

I think if Source really takes off with the mod community it could make a lot more advancements in gameplay than any advanced shader programs or physics engines could do. Natural Selection, Day of Defeat, Counter-Strike, The Specialists, Team Fortress Classic, and other mods all have their unique forms of gameplay that have helped to revolutionize the genre. Even though they were all built on an aging engine their popularity and 'fun factor' are all still fairly high.