Video Games and the Uncanny Valley

[Raziaar]

I never knew about the Uncanny Valley. But now that I know about it, it makes perfect sense and justifies the way I myself have acted to games that strive for photo realism.

 

[Saturos]

Slighty off topic, but did Besthesda use the same Gamebryo engine for Fallout 3 as Oblivion?

NPC's and character creation are shite in that game. I couldn't get my character even close to anything I look like irl. (i.e. handsome :cheese

It seems Bethesda has a hard time getting decent character animation to just merely acceptable, much less realistic.
Seconded on the crappy Oblivion NPCs too. Gamebryo is a terrible engine fs.

EA seems to do pretty good with Fight Night's character realism and custom creation though. Especially with Round 4.

 

[Cpt Tenacious]

Hey I sped my voice up in a video not like 91089239 other people don't do that.

 

[CR0M]

I think The Principle is that you're supposed to construct an NPC's face as if it's actually a face, with a skeleton and musculature underneath. You wouldn't model and animate a gun without knowing the precise size of the parts and how they move, why wouldn't you do the same for a human face?

Nope. Much simpler.

Huh? Whazzat?

It's a secret...

 

[Tagaziel]

Slighty off topic, but did Besthesda use the same Gamebryo engine for Fallout 3 as Oblivion?

Correction: they used the same engine they used for Oblivion and Morrowind.

 

[Krynn72]

The secret to lifelike human faces in games is so simple, it's just a basic anatomical principle - any artist will know what it is straight off. Yet most developers still don't do it - because it takes longer and thus costs more.

Valve got it right. Crytech also got it right. I can't think of any other developers that have yet.

I still dont get what you're talking about. Are you talking of having the topology flow around the facial muscles to get the right deformations? I dont think thats what you're saying though, because neither valve nor crytek have done that. Perhaps you're talking about a muscle deformer based rig? Pretty sure valve doesnt have that either, dont know about Crytek.

Or are you just simply talking about just having animators animate their models as if their facial muscles were doing the work, rather than cluster, joints or morph targets?



EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN DAMNIT!

 

[the cow says moo]

Nope. Much simpler.



It's a secret...

I have no patience for your secrets. Just tell us what it is.

 

[CR0M]

No, it's nothing to do with animation. A face doesn't have to move to look lifelike, neither does it need to look lifelike to convey realistic emotion.

One of these faces lives right at the bottom of Uncanny Valley. Which, and why?

 

[Acepilotf14]

TELL US

 

[DEATH eVADER]

One of these faces lives right at the bottom of Uncanny Valley. Which, and why?

I'm assuming you mean this one, by the fact she is not conveying emotion, despite the kind of situation she is in?


When I look at this character, I see one of the better examples of character modeling

 

[Krynn72]

No, it's nothing to do with animation. A face doesn't have to move to look lifelike, neither does it need to look lifelike to convey realistic emotion.

One of these faces lives right at the bottom of Uncanny Valley. Which, and why?

Its this one, and its because there is no expression on her face. And that is because of the animation. When 3D characters are created they're made expressionless so that the animators can give them life and expression. So it does have something to do with animation. Or at least posing, which is really just a one frame animation for all intents and purposes. But that doesnt have anything to do with any kind of "anatomical principle." The anatomy could be there, but if the animator doesnt do anything with it, then its just bad animation, not bad anatomy. And yes, a face MUST move in order to be lifelike, or else its deadlike, which is usually a large part of why the "uncanny valley" creeps people out. An unmoved face is just expressionless, distance staring deadness. But no, what you're talking about is simply giving a character lifelike expression, which many games now are improving on, now that we're not so limited by our technology.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Figured.

 

[Krynn72]

Well, to be fair, thats the extent of most asian people's facial expressions, so you cant blame them for having no emotion.


Heyo!

 

[CR0M]

Its this one, and its because there is no expression on her face. And that is because of the animation. When 3D characters are created they're made expressionless so that the animators can give them life and expression. So it does have something to do with animation. Or at least posing, which is really just a one frame animation for all intents and purposes. But that doesnt have anything to do with any kind of "anatomical principle." The anatomy could be there, but if the animator doesnt do anything with it, then its just bad animation, not bad anatomy. And yes, a face MUST move in order to be lifelike, or else its deadlike, which is usually a large part of why the "uncanny valley" creeps people out. An unmoved face is just expressionless, distance staring deadness. But no, what you're talking about is simply giving a character lifelike expression, which many games now are improving on, now that we're not so limited by our technology.

Nope.

Right picture, wrong reason. Yes, the face looks emotionless, I deliberately chose it because of that. But that isn't why it looks 'unreal', that's just a symptom of bad animation, as you say.

I chose that character because it is most representative of all Uncanny Valley inhabitants. There is one thing about it that sets it apart from all the other characters up there.

When I look at this character, I see one of the better examples of character modeling

BINGO. Which is why it is one of the worst.

Are we catching on yet? Look harder.

 

[Eejit]

Dead eyes syndrome?

 

[CR0M]

Nope.

OK, take any photo of any face and duplicate it. Take one of the images and flip it horizontally in PS or something similar. Compare it with the original. What do you see?

It's a basic anatomical feature of every face on the planet that enables us to recognise a face as an individual human being, instead of just another fleshy blob with 2 eyes, a nose and a mouth. But nearly always ignored by 3D modellers, because it's easier / quicker / cheaper to do so, at the expense of reality.

The answer is...?

 

[Shakermaker]

The answer is...?

Procedurally generated asymmetry?

 

[Qonfused]

God damn you're annoying.

 

[CyberPitz]

Eye brows
Nose
Lips
HAIR

Anything?

 

[MuToiD_MaN]

God damn you're annoying.

I agree. Cr0m, just get to the point rather than incrementing your post count like this. I won't say tl;dr, I swear
But I do have to say, your doing this is making your argument infallible, because an argument that is never stated is also an argument never refuted. I hope you never get to your point, for your sake.

 

[Nomad]

Even if you stare at that picture or hours on end, I highly doubt we'd be able to figure out what sets her apart from the others.

 

[Slug Advisor]

So why is it that CROM is suddenly an expert in modeling, anatomy, and psychology?

 

[Sedako]

So why is it that CROM is suddenly an expert in modeling, anatomy, and psychology?

Holiday Inn?

 

[ríomhaire]

Nope.

OK, take any photo of any face and duplicate it. Take one of the images and flip it horizontally in PS or something similar. Compare it with the original. What do you see?

It's a basic anatomical feature of every face on the planet that enables us to recognise a face as an individual human being, instead of just another fleshy blob with 2 eyes, a nose and a mouth. But nearly always ignored by 3D modellers, because it's easier / quicker / cheaper to do so, at the expense of reality.

The answer is...?

Symmetry. Her face is totally symmetrical and none of the others are.

 

[Nomad]

riom's right. Now that I notice it, the right side of all the faces excluding the bug's life and King Kong pic are ever so slightly drooped.

 

[ríomhaire]

riom's right. Now that I notice it, the right side of all the faces excluding the bug's life and King Kong pic are ever so slightly drooped.

Even so the facial expressions of those two aren't symmetrical either.

 

[Sheepo]

No, it's nothing to do with animation. A face doesn't have to move to look lifelike, neither does it need to look lifelike to convey realistic emotion.

One of these faces lives right at the bottom of Uncanny Valley. Which, and why?

What's funny about this is you're telling us there is a right or wrong answer when believing a face is a completely individual thing. I'll say that I don't believe the G-Man face (simply because it's a poor picture) and you'll tell me I'm wrong?

 

[MuToiD_MaN]

But what about symmetry -> beauty?

 

[Eejit]

Perfect symmetry is uncanny though.

 

[kineaesth]

One of these faces lives right at the bottom of Uncanny Valley. Which, and why?

Durr. He looks like Satan possessing a paedophile.

 

[CR0M]

Procedurally generated asymmetry?

Symmetry. Her face is totally symmetrical and none of the others are.

But what about symmetry -> beauty?

Perfect symmetry is uncanny though.

Gold star to Shakermaker \o/

Jesus, the rest of you are hard work - why the hell should I do it all for you, you lazy bunch of fartknockers.

Natural asymmetry v manufactured perfection. Nothing is perfectly symmetrical in nature, faces especially. 3D modellers, limited by time and money, have evolved to take the easy route when modelling - building and then mirroring half a face. Quicker, cheaper and easier to animate too, but they look all wrong, because they are too right, too perfect. The FF series artwork is a classic example of over engineered perfection based on time/cost.

Ironically, the quicker and cheaper it is to build a face, the more perfect it is. The more perfect it is, the less realistic it becomes. It's a paradox that will now hopefully consume all of you twunts in a stinking cloud of opinion.

 

[MuToiD_MaN]

So the key to making characters cross the Valley is to make them cock their jaw at odd angles a lot?

 

[CR0M]

If you like.

So why is it that CROM is suddenly an expert in modeling, anatomy, and psychology?

25 years of experience in the 2D and 3D art industry is hardly 'sudden'.