Wacky Shadows

[cowwithoutbrain]

i just threw some stuff into a far cry map quick, and it doesnt all show up right. i did notice a little bit of shadows showing through, as we see in the half-life 2 video. i am going to try it with some different item types before i come to any conclusions though.

oh yeah, and when i did see the shadows through other ones, they would normally flash on and off, so they would show up correctly some of the time.

 

[qckbeam]

Hmm...I seem to remember far cry having a bunch of movable items on top of other movable items, all of it cast shadows coorectly. Stuff on tables, soda cans on shelves, suitcases on top of boxes. I never saw the same problem I saw in the new HL2 videos.

You can't compare the lighting model used in HL2 to the one used in Far Cry. They are two different methods which produce different results, and require vastly different amounts of power from the PC (the Far Cry method is expensive). Not every game is equal, and there are more ways than one to cast a shadow. HL2 uses the method it's using for performance reasons. It looks good enough, and it doesn't kill framerates. Stop comparing the two.

 

[blahblahblah]

If not walls then it will certainly show through moveable boxcars, crates, barrels, and vehicles. That's unacceptable from a multiplayer standpoint.

Meh, all of you multiplay loving people. I really don't pay attention to subtle details when I am playing multiplay.

Singleplayer on the other hand, will make much more of a difference. You spend about 90% of your time playing the game not noticing subtle details. But you spend the other 10% noticing the fine details, and that is what makes games like HL so great. This is where lighting and shadows, imo, becomes important.

 

[CoreyGH]

I really don't pay attention to subtle details when I am playing multiplay.

If you don't, then you must end up dying a lot. If you ignore a detail like these shadow clipping errors, then you're going to end up dead. All the time.

Stop comparing the two.

What? No! Why? They are both new first person shooters running on next gen engines. This is a forum, you know, for discussion. You'd figure a mod would understand that.

 

[cowwithoutbrain]

okay, heres a shadow bug i just produced in far cry. this is with everything on very high. it doesnt know which shadow should show on the ground, and it glitches between them. give me a little while longer, and i shall try to make an effect similar to what we see in the HL2 videos.
heres the small view, click them to enlarge. beware, large is the full 1600x1200 image.

wrong: http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=12618
right: http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=12619

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Ive seen it in a number of games , mostly in charecter shadows where you can see the outline of the seperate 'tubes' that make up limbs , such as from shoulde to elbow can be seen in the shadow , when it should just be the elbow and forearm that are seen (I cant explain it).

Hm. They don't have that overlapping problem with the character's shadows. Why would the crates be different?
Maybe valve could make it a settings option?

*Me not tech-savvy.


Hey cowwithoutbrain, you fixed it! You should sell the technique to valve.

 

[blahblahblah]

If you don't, then you must end up dying a lot. If you ignore a detail like these shadow clipping errors, then you're going to end up dead. All the time.

lol. yes, of course I should pay attention to shadows more than I should pay attention to the actually person playing. Its already been said that shadows won't go through walls so it is a non-issue. So having a mis-cast shadow on a box will not make any difference in a multiplayer game.

Like I said, when I play multiplay, I pay attention to player movements and sound a whole lot more than shadows or other minor things.

[Edit]: what I do hate is when you can see a light source through a solid object. Yes it fades in a couple of seconds, but it is really annoying. Don't know what I am talking about? Watch the strider vid on the new E3 demos and you will see what I mean.

 

[BlazeKun]

lol. yes, of course I should pay attention to shadows more than I should pay attention to the actually person playing. Its already been said that shadows won't go through walls so it is a non-issue. So having a mis-cast shadow on a box will not make any difference in a multiplayer game.

Like I said, when I play multiplay, I pay attention to player movements and sound a whole lot more than shadows or other minor things.

[Edit]: what I do hate is when you can see a light source through a solid object. Yes it fades in a couple of seconds, but it is really annoying. Don't know what I am talking about? Watch the strider vid on the new E3 demos and you will see what I mean.

That's just it, it doesn't need to go through walls to affect multiplayer. I gave the reason earlier but it would be the same as hiding behind a crate, if the crates don't block your shadow then you could tell someone was hiding behind a crate because you could see their shadow moving around in certain conditions. In a game like counter-strike that's the difference between life and death.

 

[DarkStar]

What? No! Why? They are both new first person shooters running on next gen engines. This is a forum, you know, for discussion. You'd figure a mod would understand that.

LOL! Exactly what I was thinking. You read my mind Corey. Qckbeam, we're not comparing apples and oranges here. We're talking about shadow solutions in 2 next-gen first person shooters. You make it sound like I'm comparing Far Cry with a moldy old shoe or something.

"The shadow system the moldy old shoe is running takes far less processing power than Far Cry. That's why it is teh better! Now stop discussing this immediately! Derp de derp der derp!"

So what if they use different sysytems? We're still allowed to talk about it. We're still allowed to discuss the pros and cons of each. C'mon Qckbeam, I expect better from you. No, I won't stop comparing them, I come here to discuss things and don't appreciate mods telling me what I can and can't talk about (if it's within reason of course.)

 

[cowwithoutbrain]

another quick example:

right: http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=12621
wrong: http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=12622

In conclusion: Half-Life 2's shadows do have some flaws (currently), as does Far Cry's shadows. Half-Life 2 looks to be adding the shadows (that is whats going on, right?), whereas Far Cry can't manage to use the right shadow the whole time (glitches between them).

These shots were done with my Geforce FX 5900 Ultra, which means it may only be the shadows on Nvidia cards in Far Cry. I don't have a nice ATI card to compare it too though, so if someone feels like doing so, go ahead.

 

[freeorangeshoes]

you guys are analyzing the most minute of details on a demo video of a product that is somewhere between an alpha and beta stage. incredible.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Additionally incredible:

I am analyzing the fact that you are analyzing our analysis of the most minute of details on a demo video of a product that is somewhere between an alpha and beta stage.

Incredible.

 

[Asus]

what I do hate is when you can see a light source through a solid object. Yes it fades in a couple of seconds, but it is really annoying. Don't know what I am talking about? Watch the strider vid on the new E3 demos and you will see what I mean.

It is just the glow that it's cutting into. Once it cuts into the actual light source/path it blocks the light...from what I can tell anyway.

 

[Naveed]

It would be cool if HL2 had correct implementation of shadows, it makes Source engine weakest of all current generation graphic engines.

 

[Ro@cH]

The sparks thing was fixed, but the shadow thing will probably not be. You'll live.

The sparks thing was NOT fixed in the E3 2004 video: *link removed by author, read edit*

Not that I mind, it's still a stunningly great game, but saying it's fixed when it isn't fixed is not so good. Wait a sec...just thought of something: perhaps this vid was recorded on an older build, before the fix. Anyway, Apos, could you give a link to an official statement from a Valve employee that the spark bug is or will be fixed?

EDIT: wtf? Can't take a decent screenshot from a quicktime movie? Gah. Ok Apos: rewatch the movie, it's where gordon is fighting the strider, and he ducks behind the wreck of a car. You can clearly see it.

 

[cowwithoutbrain]

It would be cool if HL2 had correct implementation of shadows, it makes Source engine weakest of all current generation graphic engines.

is this sarcasm? if not, what graphic engines are you comparing it to? the only currently released one i can think of would be the far cry engine, but as you can see from my screenshots, the shadows dont always work right there either. if its the doom 3 engine, its not out yet, thus we cant tell if it will have glitches or bugs either.

 

[CoreyGH]

lol. yes, of course I should pay attention to shadows more than I should pay attention to the actually person playing. Its already been said that shadows won't go through walls so it is a non-issue. So having a mis-cast shadow on a box will not make any difference in a multiplayer game.

Like I said, when I play multiplay, I pay attention to player movements and sound a whole lot more than shadows or other minor things.

I shouldn't have to spell this out, but:
As has already been explained, shadows will show through things that are moveable, like the boxcars or crates or perhaps vehicles. If you try to hide behind such and object, and there is a light source behind you, your shadow will show THROUGH the box and give your position away.

If you can't see how this would negatively affect multiplayer gaming, then you must play computer games with your monitor off. If that's the case then yes, incorrect shadowing won't be a problem for you.

It's the minor things that separate the good from the great.

 

[qckbeam]

LOL! Exactly what I was thinking. You read my mind Corey. Qckbeam, we're not comparing apples and oranges here. We're talking about shadow solutions in 2 next-gen first person shooters. You make it sound like I'm comparing Far Cry with a moldy old shoe or something.

"The shadow system the moldy old shoe is running takes far less processing power than Far Cry. That's why it is teh better! Now stop discussing this immediately! Derp de derp der derp!"

So what if they use different sysytems? We're still allowed to talk about it. We're still allowed to discuss the pros and cons of each. C'mon Qckbeam, I expect better from you. No, I won't stop comparing them, I come here to discuss things and don't appreciate mods telling me what I can and can't talk about (if it's within reason of course.)

Ok, it's not like I said "STOP COMPARING THE TWO OR YOU ARE BANNED!!!". Of course you are allowed to talk about the engines, talk about whatever you want. Sorry if my post came off sounding like a command from a mod, it wasn't one.

What I meant is that it is pointless to bring up Far Cry and their method of shadowing and stick it next to HL2 and it's method. You are comparing apples and oranges there. Those two methods are done in a very different way, and they have different pros and cons. It simply isn't fair to compare the two. HL2 can't use the method Far Cry uses simply because it would be much to taxing on a system. So trade offs have to be made along the line and we have to accept the fact that not everything is going to be perfect. It's a very delicate balance between quality and performance. Valve seems to be doing quite well in that respect.

Again I'm sorry I gave the wrong impression in that post. I'd never tell anyone to stop talking about something unless it broke the rules. If you want to keep talking about it go right ahead. I just wanted to point out that it's unreasonable to think the Source should be able to do everything every other
next gen engine does, as well as employing it's own amazing techniques, while running at a high framerate. Look at the Source as a whole, take into consideration what else it's doing, and you'll see it simply isn't a fair comparison.

 

[Apos]

I've looked at Far cry on high settings too, and here's what I observed:

It's odd. It uses stencil shadows on characters and objects even indoors from what I can tell (occasionally using a per-pixel light, though sometimes the moveable lights actually seem to work more like a hack than truly dynamic per pixel lights: they brighten target areas on walls and some objects, but they don't affect the direction of stencil shadows cast by those objects themselves, if there are any, and don't seem to light characters quite right like the true per-pixel lights do) and a lot of moveable objects just don't have shadows, period, at least not without the perpixel light casting it. Some of the shadows (character shadows) for some reason do not get cast over some world objects (like big rocks outside), just the ground and walls, which is also odd.

But.... in Far Cry the stencil shadow do NOT additive blend in the way that HL2 currently (wrongly) looks like it does (my "problem#). When the shadows of two dead bodies or two barrels overlap, they blend together without a double dark overlap area. In addition, stencil shadows seem to blend into world geometry shadows without an overlap either, which some videos of HL2 show them failing to do (my "problem#).

However, there may be an explanation for how Far Cry gets around this second problem that wouldn't work for the lighting in HL2. For example, I did notice that the world shadows in Far Cry are very basic: they are either what appears to be hard edged shadows (looking a lot like stencil shadows, actually) cast by objects, and what looks to be pre-rendered soft shadows outdoors, and always with the exact same darkness as the stencil shadows. As long as you get the non-additive blending thing fixed, having this single value for shadow darkness would make it much simpler to make the blending automatic, whereas HL2 appears to have a great deal of variation in lighting brightness and shadow darkness on a single map. I'm going to have to look into this some more, because Far Cry's lighting is pretty confusing: it's really not clear what it's doing in any given situation, especially because what it can do is different in different places.

Here's two things it can definately do that it's not clear HL2 can:
Outdoor and Indoor mode: stencil shadows blend together correctly, and blend into world shadows correctly
Indoor mode only: stencil shadows can actually fall on the character that casts them, so an arm on a dead body can properly shadow the chest of that dead body

 

[Apos]

Hey, check this out:
look at roughly 19:26 and on of the .mov file vid from e3.2004, in slo-mo if your computer can handle it (in Quicktime, pause the vid, and then use the arrow keys)

You'll see that the board shadows are facing down and to the left.
Now, you can't see the shadows move when the board actually breaks, but if you watch carefully, you'll realize that the shadows of the three major boards are all facing in three different directions! The small, as yet unsmashed, board has a shadow facing down and to the left, as it started. The bottom half of the big board has a shadow facing out the door way: down and to the right. And the top half of the board has a shadow facing towards the right!

This is confirmation that Source CAN, in fact, have shadows facing in several directions at once in the same scene!!!!

Now, in this scene there may or may not be one of those special, magical dynamic lights which is causing this to happen (note that in the combine train station vid, the combine shadow remains facing the same and ultimately wrong way even after crossing under the only light in the room: so apparently either these are two different builds/system settings, or the effect can be on and off as performance needs require), but the fact is, it can happen, and the shadows do seem to be adjusting themselves to fit the direction the light is coming at them from (i.e one of the two lights is almost right overhead in the doorway).

However, this part also has a new glitch. While the board in this scene properly casts a shadow on the tabletop (this may or may not be a moveable table: if so then this would seem to be a fix of the "object shadows showing through moveable objects, and if not, it's no big deal), that actually works out badly in this scene. Why? Because the angle of the board's shadow and the angle of the shadow of the table are different. This means that the board's shadow is cut off before it reaches the table's shadow: in reality, they should meet (since the board is leaning on the table and there's no hole in the board for that bar of light to shine through between the board shadow and the table shadow).

Anyway, analyzing this one scene has revealed a lot of new info about the flexibility of the shadow effects in Source.

 

[Andy018]

Additionally incredible:

I am analyzing the fact that you are analyzing our analysis of the most minute of details on a demo video of a product that is somewhere between an alpha and beta stage.

Incredible.

Additionally Incredible!:

I am analyzing your analysis of the analysis of the most minute details on a demo video of a product that is somewhere between an alpha and a beta stage!

INCREDIBLE

 

[fragnemesis]

Looks like Far Cry's technique, with indoor (or low detail) areas having dynamic shadows and outdoor (or high detail) areas having static ones, for the sake of performance

 

[Apos]

It's even more complicated than that, apparently. More research is required....

 

[CoreyGH]

Ok, it's not like I said "STOP COMPARING THE TWO OR YOU ARE BANNED!!!". Of course you are allowed to talk about the engines, talk about whatever you want. Sorry if my post came off sounding like a command from a mod, it wasn't one.

Noted; I was probably overly harsh in my reply.

 

[Theman2k]

I don't know ... It's realy ugly and realy basic lightning problem i thougt will be fixed after 2003 .

I don't know what about you but it's a let down that valve managed to do perfect game with such a basic problem.

 

[CrazyHarij]

My opinions on the shadows in this game and almost all games out today is that they're nowhere near real life shadows, way too sharp.. Real life shadows are extremely soft depending on the lightsources and in broad daylight outside there isn't any shadow at all.

Max Payne 2's shadows were pretty good though with the smoothing effect.

 

[Apos]

HL2's shadows are almost all soft shadows.

 

[Delgarto]

Unreal 3 seems to be the only engine that is getting right. Granted it needs the Nvidia 6800U just to beable to run it at decent frame rates. Still, hopefully modders will beable to have the lighting they want. If I want afully dynamic light source from within source, I better beable to.

 

[Apos]

It's listed in the features, and described in the info thread, but I'm not sure what a "dynamic light" is in Source per se because that term is so vague. There are definately lights in what we've seen that seem "better" than others. For instance, the light in hallway with the combine walking to the interogation room lights him up very realistically, but doesn't affect the direction of his shadow. And the light in the toolshed doesn't seem to shade objects in the same way as the first light, but it does seem to set the direction of the object shadows!

As for dynamic light in the sense that it will
a) move light and shadow around when shot
b) cast per pixel shadows

I'm pretty sure there can be a, but I've heard nothing about an implementation of b