Water enviorments

[M1RAG3]

We don't need real water. We just need to simulate it. Programmers usually find ways to do certain effects faster. I use a CG program called cinema 4d. It can do this liquid effect (called metaballs) by surrounding a point with a sphere of polygons. And they stick to other polygons of the same type to produce a liquid type effect. You really need to look at the link to make sense of it. http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/~jeffdr/ogl/metaballs.jpg . You would control the water by moving the points. Many points would make a body of water. A few would look like drops of water. If were applied to a game I sure it would need to be specialized to do something specific. i.e. ocean water, river, or rain. Other optimization should and could be made for each situation. I'm not saying it can be done for sure in game but I hope it will be soon.

That is just the tip of fluid dynamics, metaballs is more of a mesh stretched across objects, like a sheet of rubber, water effects (not simulations) are possible, but due to the limited power of the metaballs it comes out looking faked. Although if you would like to see what is true fluid dynamics then check out Next Limit. The program called Real Flow, which I have used extensively is amazing, and amazingly cpu intensive. For a wine pouring simulation it took a good hoour to calculate about 1 min worth of footage, which I then had to import into Cinema 4d (which is king, better then Maya and 3ds Max and Softimage) and then apply shaders/materials, and then render the final movie. All in all it took about 2.5-3 hours for the whole process, for just wine pouring out of a bottle into a glass!

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I reckon you could do a large volume by dynamically making the "balls" all different sizes. Large ones in the center, small ones on the edges. Less computation.

No, that would not work out well, you would need quite some code to maintain the location of the different sized balls, and that effect would look more like cooling jello then water, to pull off water you need to use hundreds upon thousands of "points", which is how Real Flow works. Which then wraps a heavily subdivided mesh around the particles, and compensates for stray particles, and even then you can tell that it is not quite real...

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tss.. its just water, cmon.. its rippled, its translucent, and it splashes when you shoot at it.. nothing more to it

Also needs to incorporate the Fresnel effect... don't forget that. (Yay for Source!!!)

 

[genocide604]

that could affect gameplay in a huge way, if there were currents and such, and force applied to waterfalls and big waves...

It would add a new element for gameplay and levels.

 

[M1RAG3]

that could affect gameplay in a huge way, if there were currents and such, and force applied to waterfalls and big waves...

It would add a new element for gameplay and levels.

Oh goodness, so now you want force, actual physical interaction between objects, (i.e. currents, buoyancy, movement...), and in real-time. Wow that is even more CPU intensive, we are talking about astronomical calculations, along with a very very complex shader for the water materials...

Seriously you could dedicate a huge chunk of a game engine just for real-time water simulations, it just is not very cost effective, or beneficial when it comes to the amount of work needed.

 

[Yombi]

that could affect gameplay in a huge way, if there were currents and such, and force applied to waterfalls and big waves...

It would add a new element for gameplay and levels.

it takes forever todo as it is in 3d prog's today ;(

C4d is a great program i like it better than maya :| *off topic* is the latest version out yet? haven't played with it for awhile

 

[M1RAG3]

Cinema 4D R9 is coming out within the next couple of months, they have a new demo at their site. (It has sub-polygonal displacement and N-gons!)

EDIT: Just checked some news sites, and it will start shipping on September 21! Yay!

 

[UndercoverBob]

cmon i say that if we stress valve many more to do something gabes gonna have a nervous breakdown so plz noone e-mailing him saying "put super intense water crap into hl2 or i wont buy it"

 

[Ames]

that could affect gameplay in a huge way, if there were currents and such, and force applied to waterfalls and big waves...

It would add a new element for gameplay and levels.

trigger_push.

 

[UndercoverBob]

trigger_push.

um........ but thats.....so......n/m but it still is really fake

 

[joshsmog]

trigger_push would be perfect for that, and if you want to flood a room you can do it now just you would need alot of scripting and perfect timing with things. I'm pretty lazy but when hl2 is released and I beat it I might make a mock up map to see how realistic I could get it but you guys won't care by then.

Real time water simulation is just useless in my opinion unless you have a geomod thing going on you won't have a need for it unless mappers are really that lazy and don't want to spend any time on their maps.

 

[UndercoverBob]

ya i agree those weird water effects are useless

 

[Yombi]

i luv water! it looks so cool, esp when you do stuff with 3d progras. Just takes awhile to render. But still, i love me 3d and gfx

 

[NetWarriorDan]

ya i agree those weird water effects are useless

Useless? I remember everybody being so wowed by the Half-lLfe 2 water. What makes flowing water any less useless. Its more cpu intensive but so is the the Half-Life 2 water compared to other games. As Brian Damage said, cheap version can be done. The question is how good can it look while still being practical. And if its not practical then when will it.

 

[Dead-Inside]

You have to be careful what your asking for as Wave Dynamics have already been "simulated" in the likes of Wave Race and NGC Wave Race.

If your asking for a level in for instance HL were the water "gushes" down a slope filling the bottom first and moving all objects on the slope down via force. thats fluid dynamics. And to be honest I cant see it being avalible for a good few years yet. and beside that I cant think of any use for it outside of "gimmicky-prettyness"

So with that inhand im gonna say... iD will bring out fluid dynamics first... They are the kings of "Gimmicky-Prettyness" above gameplay and story.

Case closed

TBH, they shouldn't be making games.

 

[Ragnarokk]

Oh goodness, so now you want force, actual physical interaction between objects, (i.e. currents, buoyancy, movement...), and in real-time. Wow that is even more CPU intensive, we are talking about astronomical calculations, along with a very very complex shader for the water materials...

Seriously you could dedicate a huge chunk of a game engine just for real-time water simulations, it just is not very cost effective, or beneficial when it comes to the amount of work needed.

Actually having currents effect objects would be really simple. That's just a physics force. Half Life 2 already does bouyancy.

 

[M1RAG3]

Actually having currents effect objects would be really simple. That's just a physics force. Half Life 2 already does bouyancy.

No, what I am saying is physically simulating the objects effects to the water, i.e. waves, ripples, splash, and then to have those waves generated by that object interact with other objects and the water itself, would be very hard to do.

 

[boomyak]

black and white 2 has build the first liquid engine, and it's coming out around Q1 2005, lava physics that chart their own paths down the mountains, i've heard good things

 

[Brian Damage]

That's what I said. And I still reckon the balls idea could work... that's probably how BW2 does it. Maybe not just balls... maybe skipping-stone-shaped objects too... hmmm... you could alter their thickness in one plane...

 

[M1RAG3]

You could write a proxy shader, that coupled with a metaball styled meshing system could pull off the effect, of lave, not water. It would look fine for lava, since that is lumpy anyways, but that would not be a good idea for water. Does anyone have a link to videos that shows the lava effect?

 

[Yombi]

You could write a proxy shader, that coupled with a metaball styled meshing system could pull off the effect, of lave, not water. It would look fine for lava, since that is lumpy anyways, but that would not be a good idea for water. Does anyone have a link to videos that shows the lava effect?

havent seen any live action of it yet. Only screenshots (i havent atleast) site here. i think their b&w2 site is down but theres heaps of other places with the shots

 

[DarkSonic]

Ok, all I read was Dead-Inside saying that iD shouldn't be making games. Dude, they are basically the father of first person shooters. Shut up.

 

[M1RAG3]

Ok, all I read was Dead-Inside saying that iD shouldn't be making games. Dude, they are basically the father of first person shooters. Shut up.

He wasn't being serious, and we all know who started FPS, when id introduced Wolfenstein to the world. So the whole "Shut up" thing is not needed.

Also I tried looking for some vids of B&W2 but to no avail, so we will just have to wait, "I will believe it when I see it."

 

[She]

He wasn't being serious, and we all know who started FPS, when id introduced Wolfenstein to the world. So the whole "Shut up" thing is not needed.

Actually, Wolfenstein wasn't the first 3d shooter...
(been discussed in another thread)

HL2 water = good-looking.. but not perfect..

 

[Yombi]

lso I tried looking for some vids of B&W2 but to no avail, so we will just have to wait, "I will believe it when I see it."

Yeah i could only find screenshots, no videos yet.

 

[DarkSonic]

Yes, iD didn't make the first one, but they perfected the style. Thus, they are considered the father of the FPS.

 

[She]

Yes, iD didn't make the first one, but they perfected the style. Thus, they are considered the father of the FPS.

Eh..
Actually.. IDsoftware did the first one.. but it wasn't Wolfenstein..

http://www.idsoftware.com/games/vintage/hovertank/